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Messi is over-rated. He keeps flopping in world cups.
And that's because Messi is no leader of men. Far from leading a team, Messi *relies on his team to make him look good*. At club level, for most of his career, he was surrounded by the best team in club history. At international level, the set-up is that Argentina set out to play boring football -defend, defend, defend relentlessly and then it either goes to penalties or Messi tucks away a chance on the break. In each case, Messi needs help to shine; to have other players create the platform for him.
The guys on RTÉ commentating on previous world cups kept saying how Argentina needed to 'bring Messi into the game'. I tell you, you never needed to say that about Maradona.
Sure, Messi's a great player and nobody will deny that. But his blinkered, hysterical fans do him no favours. Calling him the 'best player ever' is not an objective assessment of Messi's standing in the game and loses Messi fans among people who have a longer view of football history. Messi's up there, but he's far from the best - if you know anything about the game and have a knowledge of players who were playing before 2000 ... it was Pele who noted that Messi "only shoots with one leg, only has one skill and doesn't head the ball well".
This commenter in the Guardian (below the article at this link) has a thoughtful take on this issue:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/nov/25/diego-maradona-dies-one-of-greatest-footballers-of-all-time-argentina-world-cup-1986#comment-145552508
He cites what Maradona said about Messi having a "pecho frio" - a 'cold chest' who does not lead his team.
Not a charge that could ever have been levelled at Maradona. He entered a pitch like he was a gladiator entering the
colosseum, chest out, eyes afire, 100% committed. Even at the last world cup, when Argentina scored, there he was, animated, furious, and triumphantly flipping the double bird to the opposing fans; when all of his contemporaries were, by that stage of their lives, sitting quietly in the bourgeois seats.
Maradona recalled how, before the 1986 match against England: 'If it had been up to the Argentines, each of the players would have gone out there with a machine gun and killed Shilton, Stevens, Butcher, Fenwick, Sansom, Steven, Hodge, Reid, Hoddle, Beardsley and Lineker." Nothing held back there ...
"Pelé scored more goals. Lionel Messi has won more trophies. Both have
lived more stable lives than the overweight former cocaine addict who
tops this list, whose relationship with football became increasingly
strained the longer his career continued. But if you've seen Diego
Maradona with a football at his feet, you'll understand."
- Andrew Murray on Maradona topping FourFourTwo magazine's "100 Greatest Footballers Ever" list, July 2017
There's competence, there's talent, and then there is a spirit, a joy and an aesthetic which transcends the sport. In that surreal latter category, I only recognise 5 soccer geniuses:
- Garrincha
- Best
- Cruyff
- Maradona
- Zidane
I respect the great Pelé 100%, but I'm too individualistic (and probably too shallow) ever to put such a decent, sensible, gifted, team player on the same pedestal as the above 5.
This was one of the best moments of the 1980s:
https://youtu.be/2JASEUO59YM
https://youtu.be/hF_2arqQLwo
Note how he's playing down the right wing, yet he never uses his right foot. You literally wouldn't have had a
clue what he was going to do next. The second commentary gives you more of a defender's real-life perspective - what a blur of confusion it was. The overhead camera always makes it look simple.
Maradona, like Best, was a spell-weaver in an age of thugs. Maradona still holds the record for most fouls suffered in a World Cup (Mexico 86) and most fouls in a single World Cup game (23 against Italy at Spain 82). And let's be clear. We're not talking dainty little tactical tumbles. These were often staged assaults. Against South Korea in Mexico City, Maradona is punched in the face and left "screaming in pain" after "one of them spiked me so hard it went through my sock and my bandages". Playing Peru, he is marked so brutally by Luis Reyna that as Maradona leaves the pitch to have his wounds tended, Reyna goes over to the touchline and just waits there for him to come out again, ignoring the rest of the game going on behind him. After his ankle is snapped by an infamous Andoni Goikoetxea lunge in 1983 ("it sounded just like a piece of wood splitting"), Maradona is carried off on a blanket and driven to hospital in a small borrowed van. Before one qualifier he's kicked in the knee by a random passer-by as he gets off the team bus, and stays up until 5am before the game trying to ice it in his bedroom. Imagine any of that happening to Messi now. People would be jailed. The internet would break. Even as Maradona scored his unforgettable second goal he got a kick from Terry Butcher that left his ankle swollen to twice its size after the game. In today's game, about half that English team would have got the line.
The swagger, the warrior-spirit, the irrepressibility, the joy of life that his manner of playing expressed, the surreal ability, that total domination of the ball. Maradona, at his peak, played football that was a carpe diem metaphor. He was in love with the football; it clung to him like iron filings to a magnet:
https://youtu.be/4vashrNoXTE
And in an era of slot passes and 'playing the percentages' and 'getting into the scoring area first', we'll never see glorious goals like these again:
https://youtu.be/xp7Zilk2ABo?t=165
points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 239 - 15/11/2022 13:49:35
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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet: "OK, so you get to decide who's allowed to express an opinion?
Must be tough for you, what with women having the vote and all lol" Where did I say that? As I pointed out in another post it's easy for the likes of her to jump on their high horses with things like this. Funny how you didn't comment on that....
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 15/11/2022 13:56:49
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Replying To oneoff: "Where did I say that? As I pointed out in another post it's easy for the likes of her to jump on their high horses with things like this. Funny how you didn't comment on that...." " As I pointed out in another post it's easy for the likes of her to jump on their high horses with things like this."
Katie McCabe is openly lesbian. Homosexuality and same sex relationships are a crime in Qatar, and can be punishable by the death sentence.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2458 - 15/11/2022 14:27:08
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Replying To oneoff: "While I am a LOI fan I find it interesting how many of the social media soccer fans have said little about what happened during the FAI Cup final. Considering they normally claim these things are always highlighted when similar happens in GAA games." Another hypothetical scenario for you to rant online about. You're not furious though!
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12116 - 15/11/2022 14:39:21
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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet: "Messi is over-rated. He keeps flopping in world cups.
And that's because Messi is no leader of men. Far from leading a team, Messi *relies on his team to make him look good*. At club level, for most of his career, he was surrounded by the best team in club history. At international level, the set-up is that Argentina set out to play boring football -defend, defend, defend relentlessly and then it either goes to penalties or Messi tucks away a chance on the break. In each case, Messi needs help to shine; to have other players create the platform for him.
The guys on RTÉ commentating on previous world cups kept saying how Argentina needed to 'bring Messi into the game'. I tell you, you never needed to say that about Maradona.
Sure, Messi's a great player and nobody will deny that. But his blinkered, hysterical fans do him no favours. Calling him the 'best player ever' is not an objective assessment of Messi's standing in the game and loses Messi fans among people who have a longer view of football history. Messi's up there, but he's far from the best - if you know anything about the game and have a knowledge of players who were playing before 2000 ... it was Pele who noted that Messi "only shoots with one leg, only has one skill and doesn't head the ball well".
This commenter in the Guardian (below the article at this link) has a thoughtful take on this issue:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/nov/25/diego-maradona-dies-one-of-greatest-footballers-of-all-time-argentina-world-cup-1986#comment-145552508
He cites what Maradona said about Messi having a "pecho frio" - a 'cold chest' who does not lead his team.
Not a charge that could ever have been levelled at Maradona. He entered a pitch like he was a gladiator entering the
colosseum, chest out, eyes afire, 100% committed. Even at the last world cup, when Argentina scored, there he was, animated, furious, and triumphantly flipping the double bird to the opposing fans; when all of his contemporaries were, by that stage of their lives, sitting quietly in the bourgeois seats.
Maradona recalled how, before the 1986 match against England: 'If it had been up to the Argentines, each of the players would have gone out there with a machine gun and killed Shilton, Stevens, Butcher, Fenwick, Sansom, Steven, Hodge, Reid, Hoddle, Beardsley and Lineker." Nothing held back there ...
"Pelé scored more goals. Lionel Messi has won more trophies. Both have
lived more stable lives than the overweight former cocaine addict who
tops this list, whose relationship with football became increasingly
strained the longer his career continued. But if you've seen Diego
Maradona with a football at his feet, you'll understand."
- Andrew Murray on Maradona topping FourFourTwo magazine's "100 Greatest Footballers Ever" list, July 2017
There's competence, there's talent, and then there is a spirit, a joy and an aesthetic which transcends the sport. In that surreal latter category, I only recognise 5 soccer geniuses:
- Garrincha
- Best
- Cruyff
- Maradona
- Zidane
I respect the great Pelé 100%, but I'm too individualistic (and probably too shallow) ever to put such a decent, sensible, gifted, team player on the same pedestal as the above 5.
This was one of the best moments of the 1980s:
https://youtu.be/2JASEUO59YM
https://youtu.be/hF_2arqQLwo
Note how he's playing down the right wing, yet he never uses his right foot. You literally wouldn't have had a
clue what he was going to do next. The second commentary gives you more of a defender's real-life perspective - what a blur of confusion it was. The overhead camera always makes it look simple.
Maradona, like Best, was a spell-weaver in an age of thugs. Maradona still holds the record for most fouls suffered in a World Cup (Mexico 86) and most fouls in a single World Cup game (23 against Italy at Spain 82). And let's be clear. We're not talking dainty little tactical tumbles. These were often staged assaults. Against South Korea in Mexico City, Maradona is punched in the face and left "screaming in pain" after "one of them spiked me so hard it went through my sock and my bandages". Playing Peru, he is marked so brutally by Luis Reyna that as Maradona leaves the pitch to have his wounds tended, Reyna goes over to the touchline and just waits there for him to come out again, ignoring the rest of the game going on behind him. After his ankle is snapped by an infamous Andoni Goikoetxea lunge in 1983 ("it sounded just like a piece of wood splitting"), Maradona is carried off on a blanket and driven to hospital in a small borrowed van. Before one qualifier he's kicked in the knee by a random passer-by as he gets off the team bus, and stays up until 5am before the game trying to ice it in his bedroom. Imagine any of that happening to Messi now. People would be jailed. The internet would break. Even as Maradona scored his unforgettable second goal he got a kick from Terry Butcher that left his ankle swollen to twice its size after the game. In today's game, about half that English team would have got the line.
The swagger, the warrior-spirit, the irrepressibility, the joy of life that his manner of playing expressed, the surreal ability, that total domination of the ball. Maradona, at his peak, played football that was a carpe diem metaphor. He was in love with the football; it clung to him like iron filings to a magnet:
https://youtu.be/4vashrNoXTE
And in an era of slot passes and 'playing the percentages' and 'getting into the scoring area first', we'll never see glorious goals like these again:
https://youtu.be/xp7Zilk2ABo?t=165" I agree with everything you say about Maradona. Technically probably the best ever and he played with a warrior spirit.
I think your analysis of Messi is extremely harsh however. I've seen him score quite often with his right foot and he expertly dispatached a header against Man Utd in the 2009 CL final.
Lets look at his World Cup record.
In 2006 he was very young and used sparingly by Pekerman.
In 2010, and I'm trying to be fair here, his manager wasn't exactly the most level headed.
2014 he dragged a middling enough team to the final. People talk about how Maradona must be better because he won the World Cup. In 1986 Maradona sticks Burruchaga through against Germany late on, Burruchaga finishes. In 2014 Messi sticks through Higuaín, he goes through and misses.
In 2018 Argentina had another unhinged manager in charge in Sampaoli. But in the key group game against Nigeria he buried the opener (with his right foot too)
It's true that Messi (rightly) plays in an era when players are more protected. But I don't think that should be used against him in terms of measuring his greatness.
What is your opinion of Cristiano Ronaldo?
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9132 - 15/11/2022 14:59:06
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Replying To Breffni40: "Another hypothetical scenario for you to rant online about. You're not furious though!" How exactly is it hypothetical?
Still no reply to my other comment?
I won't hold my breath as you tend to not like anyone who disagrees with you...
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 15/11/2022 15:41:17
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: "" As I pointed out in another post it's easy for the likes of her to jump on their high horses with things like this."
Katie McCabe is openly lesbian. Homosexuality and same sex relationships are a crime in Qatar, and can be punishable by the death sentence." Again you really believe she wouldn't play if the woman's World Cup was played in Qatar?
She says she won't watch it because Ireland aren't in it. Does that mean she would had Ireland qualified?
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 15/11/2022 15:48:25
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Replying To oneoff: "How exactly is it hypothetical?
Still no reply to my other comment?
I won't hold my breath as you tend to not like anyone who disagrees with you..." What would be the point in responding to your "points"? They're all ifs and buts and whataboutery. I can't refute hypotheticals you've made up in your head. Sure you'd just invent another one.
You're railing against things people haven't said.
Just cos you haven't seen or heard what you think Katie McCabe or LOI fans should be saying doesn't mean anything.
People not replying to your hypothetical scenarios doesn't prove you right either.
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12116 - 15/11/2022 17:23:55
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Posters asking opinions on Ronaldo…. In my view he is not in the same league as Messi…. simply because of his terrible attitude…. I would have Messi ahead of him every day.. It's all about him…and his recent behaviour at his club shows what an insufferable individual he is…. Utd ( influenced by whiskey nose Ferguson ) should never have let him back near the club… 500k a week and this is his attitude… What does the great Ferguson say now I wonder..?
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1921 - 15/11/2022 17:26:05
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "Posters asking opinions on Ronaldo…. In my view he is not in the same league as Messi…. simply because of his terrible attitude…. I would have Messi ahead of him every day.. It's all about him…and his recent behaviour at his club shows what an insufferable individual he is…. Utd ( influenced by whiskey nose Ferguson ) should never have let him back near the club… 500k a week and this is his attitude… What does the great Ferguson say now I wonder..?" Whiskey nose Ferguson? That sounds like an insult. What's wrong with a whiskey nose? Anyway, I think you'll find that Ferguson has a whisky (not whiskey) nose.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2458 - 15/11/2022 18:38:17
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "Posters asking opinions on Ronaldo…. In my view he is not in the same league as Messi…. simply because of his terrible attitude…. I would have Messi ahead of him every day.. It's all about him…and his recent behaviour at his club shows what an insufferable individual he is…. Utd ( influenced by whiskey nose Ferguson ) should never have let him back near the club… 500k a week and this is his attitude… What does the great Ferguson say now I wonder..?" Ronaldo is effective and scores a lot of goals, I wouldn't mention him in the same breath as the true greats of the game,
I really hope Messi can win this World Cup with Argentina, it would cap a magnificent career for him,
thinking back and reflecting on my earlier post as good as Messi is he has never been at the level of Maradona for the international team anyway,
I think these modern overpaid pampered players haven't the same warrior spirit and heart as their predecessors.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2746 - 15/11/2022 19:18:25
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Replying To Breffni40: "What would be the point in responding to your "points"? They're all ifs and buts and whataboutery. I can't refute hypotheticals you've made up in your head. Sure you'd just invent another one.
You're railing against things people haven't said.
Just cos you haven't seen or heard what you think Katie McCabe or LOI fans should be saying doesn't mean anything.
People not replying to your hypothetical scenarios doesn't prove you right either." Again explain how soccer fans issues with the GAA are hypothetical?
I know you tend to not like anyone else having a view or an option but surely that's not a hard question to answer?
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 16/11/2022 07:49:33
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "Posters asking opinions on Ronaldo…. In my view he is not in the same league as Messi…. simply because of his terrible attitude…. I would have Messi ahead of him every day.. It's all about him…and his recent behaviour at his club shows what an insufferable individual he is…. Utd ( influenced by whiskey nose Ferguson ) should never have let him back near the club… 500k a week and this is his attitude… What does the great Ferguson say now I wonder..?" Cristiano Ronaldo's ridiculous goal scoring record has excused his petulance and arrogance over the years. But now that he is on the wane many people, including Utd supporters, are getting fed up with it. He has always been a mé féiner. Over-indulging on the ball, diving, berating his own team mates etc. But his astonishing ability to find the net meant that it was tolerated. He will go down as the best goal scorer of all time but as for the best footballer of all time - forget it. There is a big difference in being a great goal scorer and a great footballer. Ruud van Nistelrooy was a brilliant goal scorer but you'd rarely hear him mentioned in the talk of best footballers, even in Utd's history.
Messi is also a brilliant goal scorer. But the key difference for me is what he contributes from general play. Messi could easily reinvent himeself as a deep lying playmaker a la Pirlo and really hurt teams still. I don't think Ronaldo would have the inclination or the ability to perform a similar role. Witness some of the assists from deep Messi has contributed for PSG season. Absolute eye of the needle stuff, the weight of pass etc. I sincerely hope he carries this form into the World Cup for all to see.
An aside from this - looking forward to watching the recently released documentary on Brazil's Ronaldo. What an absolute marvel. If he hadn't suffered the injuries he did there's a good chance he would also be in the discussion of the greatest ever. In that late 90s /early 00's period he was practically unstoppable. The way he came back from the disappointment of 98 and two career threatening injuries to lead his team to glory in 2002 was a fantastic redemption story.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9132 - 16/11/2022 09:01:07
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Replying To oneoff: "Again explain how soccer fans issues with the GAA are hypothetical?
I know you tend to not like anyone else having a view or an option but surely that's not a hard question to answer?" The soccer fans on social media discussed the incident at the final as far as I could see. That's how I became aware of it. But you tell yourself they didn't and create a weird argument with yourself.
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12116 - 16/11/2022 10:37:33
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Replying To Breffni40: "The soccer fans on social media discussed the incident at the final as far as I could see. That's how I became aware of it. But you tell yourself they didn't and create a weird argument with yourself." Not the question I asked though was it? What I said was soccer fans claim these incidents are highlighted in the media while in GAA they aren't.
Now you've just admitted that you didn't see it in the media did you not? So now explain what exactly I made up?
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 16/11/2022 11:12:12
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Replying To Lockjaw: "Cristiano Ronaldo's ridiculous goal scoring record has excused his petulance and arrogance over the years. But now that he is on the wane many people, including Utd supporters, are getting fed up with it. He has always been a mé féiner. Over-indulging on the ball, diving, berating his own team mates etc. But his astonishing ability to find the net meant that it was tolerated. He will go down as the best goal scorer of all time but as for the best footballer of all time - forget it. There is a big difference in being a great goal scorer and a great footballer. Ruud van Nistelrooy was a brilliant goal scorer but you'd rarely hear him mentioned in the talk of best footballers, even in Utd's history.
Messi is also a brilliant goal scorer. But the key difference for me is what he contributes from general play. Messi could easily reinvent himeself as a deep lying playmaker a la Pirlo and really hurt teams still. I don't think Ronaldo would have the inclination or the ability to perform a similar role. Witness some of the assists from deep Messi has contributed for PSG season. Absolute eye of the needle stuff, the weight of pass etc. I sincerely hope he carries this form into the World Cup for all to see.
An aside from this - looking forward to watching the recently released documentary on Brazil's Ronaldo. What an absolute marvel. If he hadn't suffered the injuries he did there's a good chance he would also be in the discussion of the greatest ever. In that late 90s /early 00's period he was practically unstoppable. The way he came back from the disappointment of 98 and two career threatening injuries to lead his team to glory in 2002 was a fantastic redemption story." Ronaldo has a narcissistic high performing athlete gene. Verging on psyschopathic, like Lance Armstrong. Apparently sharing a lot of serial killer traits!
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7343 - 16/11/2022 11:29:43
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Messi v Ronaldo. It was always Messi for me. I never liked Ronaldos attitude. I would love to see Argentina win the world cup. Argentina never played Portugal at the world cup. If both teams win their groups or both are runners up they can only meet in the final. If one team wins their group and the other finishes runners up they can only meet in the semi finals.
Ollie2 (Louth) - Posts: 784 - 16/11/2022 11:35:34
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Replying To Lockjaw: "Cristiano Ronaldo's ridiculous goal scoring record has excused his petulance and arrogance over the years. But now that he is on the wane many people, including Utd supporters, are getting fed up with it. He has always been a mé féiner. Over-indulging on the ball, diving, berating his own team mates etc. But his astonishing ability to find the net meant that it was tolerated. He will go down as the best goal scorer of all time but as for the best footballer of all time - forget it. There is a big difference in being a great goal scorer and a great footballer. Ruud van Nistelrooy was a brilliant goal scorer but you'd rarely hear him mentioned in the talk of best footballers, even in Utd's history.
Messi is also a brilliant goal scorer. But the key difference for me is what he contributes from general play. Messi could easily reinvent himeself as a deep lying playmaker a la Pirlo and really hurt teams still. I don't think Ronaldo would have the inclination or the ability to perform a similar role. Witness some of the assists from deep Messi has contributed for PSG season. Absolute eye of the needle stuff, the weight of pass etc. I sincerely hope he carries this form into the World Cup for all to see.
An aside from this - looking forward to watching the recently released documentary on Brazil's Ronaldo. What an absolute marvel. If he hadn't suffered the injuries he did there's a good chance he would also be in the discussion of the greatest ever. In that late 90s /early 00's period he was practically unstoppable. The way he came back from the disappointment of 98 and two career threatening injuries to lead his team to glory in 2002 was a fantastic redemption story." I'd agree with that, but just one point on the goalscoring. There seems to be a general narrative that Ronaldo has the edge there, but Messi actually has slightly more club career goals than Ronaldo in far fewer games.
Ronaldo has the champions league record, but he has played many more games than Messi. It's possible that Messi could overtake his mark in that competition, as his goals-per-game record is better there too.
The only place where Ronaldo is clearly ahead is in international football, but I would argue that there are many more minnows in European football than in South America.
Messi once scored 50 league goals and 70 in all competitions in one season. He had 90 goals in one calendar year.
As well as all of his other qualities, he's every bit the goalscorer Ronaldo is.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2039 - 16/11/2022 11:43:07
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Replying To oneoff: "Not the question I asked though was it? What I said was soccer fans claim these incidents are highlighted in the media while in GAA they aren't.
Now you've just admitted that you didn't see it in the media did you not? So now explain what exactly I made up?" You said social media, read back what you wrote.
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12116 - 16/11/2022 12:04:33
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Messi is the greatest ever. No question. Ronaldo in fairness has gotten to the level he has due to his incredible work and desire to be the best whereas it comes so naturally to Messi which makes him the best!
Meath10 (Meath) - Posts: 183 - 16/11/2022 12:16:09
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