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GAA Before The Noughties Was Terrible

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "That's exactly it, just because you have a backroom team of 15-20 people with statisticians and video people, it doesn't make it any more appealing. Lads wearing gps trackers for God sake. What would the stats be for Jimmy Keaveney if he had one for example, he didn't need one, he scored on demand! Simple rule tweaks would make the game far more appealing, no short kick out, frees must be kicked forward, once you are in the attacking 45 you can't pass it back out of it etc."
You know that will make defensive strategies and mass defences even better and more important right? It will look just like basketball where as soon as you turn the ball over/it goes dead, you set up 15 behind your own 65. Imagine how easy it would be to defend when you can pin the lad between the sideline and the 45.

systematic (Galway) - Posts: 54 - 29/04/2022 08:38:28    2413977

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "That's exactly it, just because you have a backroom team of 15-20 people with statisticians and video people, it doesn't make it any more appealing. Lads wearing gps trackers for God sake. What would the stats be for Jimmy Keaveney if he had one for example, he didn't need one, he scored on demand! Simple rule tweaks would make the game far more appealing, no short kick out, frees must be kicked forward, once you are in the attacking 45 you can't pass it back out of it etc."
I like the no short kickout rule.

It means you aren't punished with guaranteed opposition possession for taking a shot on and missing, as you can still compete for the long kickout rather than hoping the press works on the short kickout.

Frees must be kicked forward is interesting - I assume indirect frees should still be allowed go backwards. I don't think it would change too much, but would give more opportunities for a high press - foul the corner back carrying the ball then setup the press so he has no options ahead.

The no passing back outside the attacking 45 is a terrible rule and only targets the symptom, not the root cause.

systematic (Galway) - Posts: 54 - 29/04/2022 08:46:07    2413979

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "I'd hardly say it's ignored. Supporters have been complaining about lateral repetitive handpassing for a number of years now. I'll never forget the 2nd half of our 2019 Connacht Final against Roscommon, for all of the wrong reasons.
We spent the majority of it handpassing the ball over and back outside their 45 and attempting little else. If I remember rightly, we scored 1 point at the start of the half and another in injury time, with nothing in between.
At the same time, we'd also be complaining if players just belted the ball away and kept giving away possession. One point I'll always make is, if a team is winning and passing the ball around, it's up to the other team to push up and pressure them. There's no point sitting back and complaining afterwards. Dublin with only 14 men showed perfectly how this can be done at the end of the 2019 drawn final. They turned Kerry over 4 times in the last few minutes and actually wasted a few chances, before they kicked the equaliser."
They actually got caught with that tactic tho. When Jonathan Lyne spun away from Diarrmuid Connolly on the Hogan Stand side, Kerry had numbers and Dublin's press was bust.

Conolly tripped Lyne, Gough missed it, and the rest as they say is history.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 4693 - 29/04/2022 09:00:03    2413985

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Eh no Dublin didn't run up a big lead in the first half and let Kerry back in to it. The largest lead in the half was four points. It was level at half time. Dublin went four ahead early in the second half. Kerry pulled it back to two. There was three points in it with eight to go. They were four up with two to go and it was from there that they wound down the clock. Put the whole package of the two games together and you get one of the greatest All Ireland finals hurling or football played in my lifetime."
In football, perhaps. Not in hurling. The two sports are not comparable.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1266 - 29/04/2022 09:04:25    2413987

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "Not many, but you've still a few: McCarron & McManus in Monaghan, CON in Dublin, Murphy still in Donegal, and Sam Mulroy in Louth.

Can't actually think of too many more, tbh."
Shane Walsh, Damien Comer and Ryan O'Donoghue would all fit that category as well.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 221 - 29/04/2022 09:38:53    2413990

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Replying To systematic:  "You know that will make defensive strategies and mass defences even better and more important right? It will look just like basketball where as soon as you turn the ball over/it goes dead, you set up 15 behind your own 65. Imagine how easy it would be to defend when you can pin the lad between the sideline and the 45."
It's happening anyway!

kentuckytucky (USA) - Posts: 207 - 29/04/2022 10:51:20    2414008

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Replying To cavanman47:  "They actually got caught with that tactic tho. When Jonathan Lyne spun away from Diarrmuid Connolly on the Hogan Stand side, Kerry had numbers and Dublin's press was bust.

Conolly tripped Lyne, Gough missed it, and the rest as they say is history."
Of course there was a risk they would get caught with it. That was the point. The alternative was let Kerry have the ball and lose the final by a point.
They were a man down after putting in a full game of running, yet they managed to squeeze Kerry and turn the ball over not just once but 3 or 4 times.
Could Kerry have done better to keep the ball, of course, but the pressure Dublin put on them was fierce.
If teams want the ball back it's up to themselves to go and get it. Mayo are another team who are excellent at suffocating a team high up the pitch.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1489 - 29/04/2022 11:17:05    2414018

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Replying To gatha:  "I asked the question a couple of years ago What makes a good footballer today? You do not have to catch a high ball, You do not have to score from long range, You do not have to defend a man by yourself and you do not have to take on your marker as forward. I watched games recently and often went into the kitchen and made a cup of tea came back and missed nothing. I think the systems today are supressing the talent the players have today. They are incredible fit strong and I'am sure have great skills shame we rarely see what these players can do."
There's definite truth to that. Teams are no longer made up of the best 15 footballers. However, you won't be winning anything with 15 athletes only. Without skillful footballers like Fenton, Kilkenny, McCurry, Harte, Murphy, McBrearty, O'Connor, Keegan, Walsh, Conroy, Clifford, Sean O'Shea etc, a team won't be going too far.
The same is true of many sports though. In the NBA many teams will have a big defensive player who has very limited basketball skills, but is physically very difficult to deal with.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1489 - 29/04/2022 11:27:07    2414026

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "It's happening anyway!"
Are you serious? Some people in these decision modes just do not understand the fundamentals of the defensive game - guess I shouldn't be surprised tho

systematic (Galway) - Posts: 54 - 29/04/2022 14:47:34    2414071

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Players are definitely more skillful as a whole. Able to do a lot more with the ball in tighter spaces. But the game was a lot more entertaining before the 2010s defence systems came in.

Rhyne_Stonecowboy (Longford) - Posts: 27 - 30/04/2022 08:17:45    2414105

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "In football, perhaps. Not in hurling. The two sports are not comparable."
In both. Look at the last three All Ireland senior hurling finals. They were very, very disappointing matches. Look at the results in four of the five tiered hurling finals last year. They weren't contests at all.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5796 - 30/04/2022 11:43:34    2414132

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "There's definite truth to that. Teams are no longer made up of the best 15 footballers. However, you won't be winning anything with 15 athletes only. Without skillful footballers like Fenton, Kilkenny, McCurry, Harte, Murphy, McBrearty, O'Connor, Keegan, Walsh, Conroy, Clifford, Sean O'Shea etc, a team won't be going too far.
The same is true of many sports though. In the NBA many teams will have a big defensive player who has very limited basketball skills, but is physically very difficult to deal with."
Well said.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5796 - 30/04/2022 11:57:33    2414136

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Replying To Greengrass:  "In both. Look at the last three All Ireland senior hurling finals. They were very, very disappointing matches. Look at the results in four of the five tiered hurling finals last year. They weren't contests at all."
Shush you should know you can't ever say anything negative about hurling no matter how true it is.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 984 - 30/04/2022 12:38:37    2414151

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Replying To oneoff:  "Shush you should know you can't ever say anything negative about hurling no matter how true it is."
How right you are oneoff. We are blessed to have not one but two great games to enjoy.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5796 - 30/04/2022 13:06:50    2414158

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Replying To systematic:  "I like the no short kickout rule.

It means you aren't punished with guaranteed opposition possession for taking a shot on and missing, as you can still compete for the long kickout rather than hoping the press works on the short kickout.

Frees must be kicked forward is interesting - I assume indirect frees should still be allowed go backwards. I don't think it would change too much, but would give more opportunities for a high press - foul the corner back carrying the ball then setup the press so he has no options ahead.

The no passing back outside the attacking 45 is a terrible rule and only targets the symptom, not the root cause."
There have been many rule changes proposed on here over the years, all designed to solve the symptom not the disease,e.g.
1. Shot clock
2. No backpassing into own half
3. No short kick outs
4. Limit on hand passing
5. 2 points for a long range point
6. Offensive mark
7. 4 points for a goal

The real problem is the double sweeper. I hate a single sweeper personally but as a slow fullback I appreciate the need for a sweeper to cover a dodgy full back line, particularly for an overmatched team trying to take on a higher ranked outfit

What really grates me is the double sweeper system (Jim McGuiness, Kevin Walsh et al). It's a terrible eye sight that has ruined a lot of intercounty matches and an awful lot of club matches.

It gets particularly annoying when a team does it holding onto a lead, running down the clock while the chasing team is lumping long range wides or high ball in with no hope of a goal.

The answer is to ban the double sweeper.
Anyone who says it can't be implemented hasn't played basketball at any level.
At U10 basketball you have a shot clock, half court violation, three point line, 3 second rule, free throws after 7 team fouls, count down match timer etc

All of which are implemented easily enough without public fuss.

So for me you ban the double sweeper and indeed the permanent single sweeper as follows:
1. All defending teams have to keep four forwards in own attacking 45m unless marking man to man (you can follow your man back)
2. No extra zonal defender permitted inside the existing D and 20m line for more than 10 seconds (to be monitored by an umpire)
3. Draw a new D on a 45m arc out from goal between the 45 and 21 for two purposes:
(A) awarding two points for long range point - which encourages defenders to stay further out
(B) Only 1 extra defender permitted in this area at all (unless physically marking a man (or running back to chase a loose man) to be monitored by linesman
4. Limit on continuous hand pass number (similar to ball hop rule) to be monitored by opposite linesman

A team can still have 10 outfield players back defending but only 1 can be inside their own 45 as an extra man marking space.

Finally, 45m free kick given after 7 defending team fouls in each half regardless of where the free takes place.

That way your attempting to limit the total number of free below 28 for the whole game and effectively eliminating cynical fouling in the last 15min as a result.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 987 - 05/05/2022 17:24:17    2415116

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