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Replying To wicklowsupport: "Why would the county board prioritise hurling? It isn't that I have anything against hurling, in fact, I love the game more than gaelic football in recent years but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Wicklow can become a force in hurling regardless of how much money was invested in the game. Bray have won 5 in a row or something like that. They are the dominate club in the county and they can't beat an intermediate team despite the fact that they won the Leinster title a few years ago - they're regressing based upon their recent results. If they were progressing they'd be playing in the senior club championship. Contributors on this forum inform us that Avondale are an intermediate team and they lose by 28 points to a junior club side. Imagine if Tinahely lost to the intermediate champions of Dublin, Kildare or Meath? They'd be ridiculed. If the county ever wins anything, it will be in football not hurling. If I were on the county board, I'd be investing in football as it is more likely to yield some silverware. By all means invest in hurling if you have the money but we are so far behind in hurling that we'd need billions to catch up." I disagree totally with the sentiment here. In my 40ish years involvement in WIcklow GAA we have for some unknown reason considered ourselves a Football county and prioritized all available resourcing - Monetary, People & otherwise towards the advancement of Football, very often to the detriment of Hurling. During this time, with the Mick O Dwyer era of fleeting of success sorts aside, we have declined steadily & rapidly on the Football front. If the barometer of football success is winning a Leinster championship in any grade (or even getting to a final) , then it could be easily argued that we are as far away from achieving that now as we have been at any point in our history. So where have we gotten with our notion that we are a "football county" . Nowhere. My earliest memories of Wicklow Football are the likes of the battle of Aughrim in 86, beating the then national league champions, along with jousts with Dublin in the likes of Newbridge where we travelled up thinking "we'll give these plenty of it today" and Meath took a replay to get over us after their four match series with the Dubs in the early 90s. To look at where we were then, to where we are today is a tragedy How we could then envision any future strategy and come to the conclusion that our best bet for success is to keep prioritizing football over hurling is ludicrous. I would see Bray as the shining example of what can be achieved in Hurling if you get the right people into the right positions, get out of their way and let them get on with it. 25 years ago if you'd have said Bray would win 6 senior championships in a row and a Leinster championship you'd have been laughed at. Hawkeye2 (Wicklow) - Posts: 141 - 05/12/2024 20:01:51 2582548 Link
Replying To Hawkeye2: "I disagree totally with the sentiment here. In my 40ish years involvement in WIcklow GAA we have for some unknown reason considered ourselves a Football county and prioritized all available resourcing - Monetary, People & otherwise towards the advancement of Football, very often to the detriment of Hurling. During this time, with the Mick O Dwyer era of fleeting of success sorts aside, we have declined steadily & rapidly on the Football front. If the barometer of football success is winning a Leinster championship in any grade (or even getting to a final) , then it could be easily argued that we are as far away from achieving that now as we have been at any point in our history. So where have we gotten with our notion that we are a "football county" . Nowhere. My earliest memories of Wicklow Football are the likes of the battle of Aughrim in 86, beating the then national league champions, along with jousts with Dublin in the likes of Newbridge where we travelled up thinking "we'll give these plenty of it today" and Meath took a replay to get over us after their four match series with the Dubs in the early 90s. To look at where we were then, to where we are today is a tragedy How we could then envision any future strategy and come to the conclusion that our best bet for success is to keep prioritizing football over hurling is ludicrous. I would see Bray as the shining example of what can be achieved in Hurling if you get the right people into the right positions, get out of their way and let them get on with it. 25 years ago if you'd have said Bray would win 6 senior championships in a row and a Leinster championship you'd have been laughed at." Well said Haskeye2. I too remember those glory days in football. We didn't win anything but, by God, we could compete. We have never - up to now anyway - had a properly thought out plan or strategy to improve our standards, one with proper yardsticks and objectives to be achieved . We have had studies and reports commissioned which never saw the light of day. And we are still where we are - a long way off a Leinster final in anything. I know there will be younger, more optimistic and idealistic come on here now and rubbish this and proclaim the "advances" we are making, and decrying my post as overly pessimistic, people are doing their best blah blah blah. To them, all I can say is - show me the medals. Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1300 - 06/12/2024 11:07:18 2582607 Link
Replying To Hawkeye2: "I disagree totally with the sentiment here. In my 40ish years involvement in WIcklow GAA we have for some unknown reason considered ourselves a Football county and prioritized all available resourcing - Monetary, People & otherwise towards the advancement of Football, very often to the detriment of Hurling. During this time, with the Mick O Dwyer era of fleeting of success sorts aside, we have declined steadily & rapidly on the Football front. If the barometer of football success is winning a Leinster championship in any grade (or even getting to a final) , then it could be easily argued that we are as far away from achieving that now as we have been at any point in our history. So where have we gotten with our notion that we are a "football county" . Nowhere. My earliest memories of Wicklow Football are the likes of the battle of Aughrim in 86, beating the then national league champions, along with jousts with Dublin in the likes of Newbridge where we travelled up thinking "we'll give these plenty of it today" and Meath took a replay to get over us after their four match series with the Dubs in the early 90s. To look at where we were then, to where we are today is a tragedy How we could then envision any future strategy and come to the conclusion that our best bet for success is to keep prioritizing football over hurling is ludicrous. I would see Bray as the shining example of what can be achieved in Hurling if you get the right people into the right positions, get out of their way and let them get on with it. 25 years ago if you'd have said Bray would win 6 senior championships in a row and a Leinster championship you'd have been laughed at." So if I understand your logic, you are saying that prioritising football is ludicrous? Because we'll never win anything in football. If my understanding is correct then how ludicrous is your suggestion that we should focus on hurling considering our six-times consecutive senior champions and the best senior hurling team in the county by a fair bit losing to another county's intermediate champions? If prioritising football is ludicrous then surely thinking that we can fare better in hurling is even more ludicrous. Most of the clubs in Wicklow are football, as a result, we have more players who are playing football than hurling. Surely based on this alone, the county board needs to fund that demand other than waste precious resources on hurling which is only played by a handful of counties. I've nothing against hurling but I think as a county we need to pragmatic and admit that at this moment in time, we have a better chance of advancing in football than in hurling. I freely admit that we are under achieving and up and down between division 3 and 4. Obviously if there is excess resources in terms of funding then by all means invest extensively in hurling but I don't think this is feasible. I thought there was money to improve Aughrim as a county ground; where is that money gone? wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2029 - 06/12/2024 14:28:50 2582638 Link
Replying To wicklowsupport: "So if I understand your logic, you are saying that prioritising football is ludicrous? Because we'll never win anything in football. If my understanding is correct then how ludicrous is your suggestion that we should focus on hurling considering our six-times consecutive senior champions and the best senior hurling team in the county by a fair bit losing to another county's intermediate champions? If prioritising football is ludicrous then surely thinking that we can fare better in hurling is even more ludicrous. Most of the clubs in Wicklow are football, as a result, we have more players who are playing football than hurling. Surely based on this alone, the county board needs to fund that demand other than waste precious resources on hurling which is only played by a handful of counties. I've nothing against hurling but I think as a county we need to pragmatic and admit that at this moment in time, we have a better chance of advancing in football than in hurling. I freely admit that we are under achieving and up and down between division 3 and 4. Obviously if there is excess resources in terms of funding then by all means invest extensively in hurling but I don't think this is feasible. I thought there was money to improve Aughrim as a county ground; where is that money gone?" Prioritizing Football over Hurling on the basis that we believe it's the best chance we have of being successful is absolutely ludicrous and the proof is the last 40+ years. That's exactly what we've done and not only have we not been successful, we've fallen significantly further down the ranks. Hurling at a national level took a brave decision some years ago by committing to a tiered structure for the championship and bringing in the Christy Ring, Nickey Rackard cups etc. The Football hierarchy has tried to pretend this isn't required for the best part of 20 years now but the reality is becoming clear , and with the Tailteann cup now cemented in the schedule, it's only a mater of time before more tiers are introduced. GAA Brass will welcome this as they'd much prefer to reduce the Sam Maguire to a smaller group of elite Football counties. Wicklow playing in the Sam Maguire is only optics and window dressing and when additional tiers are brought in , it's obvious that we'll be operating at or near the bottom tier. So when you boil it all down , as a county we are more or less ranked at the same level nationally in Hurling & Football. Attempting to apply logic through comparing how Wicklow teams fare in Football versus Hurling matches , like in the reference to Avondale's recent game with the KIlkenny champions , is also a nonsense. Hurling & Football are completely different games with different dynamics and physics at play. In Football , you can within reason create an illusion of competitiveness between teams of vastly different standards by adopting mass defenses & spoiling tactics etc which we now see routinely across all grades of the game. You cannot attempt to do this in Hurling where the ratio of scores are higher and even an average club hurler can pop a score even underpressure from 70-80yards out. Hawkeye2 (Wicklow) - Posts: 141 - 06/12/2024 16:19:02 2582650 Link
Replying To Hawkeye2: "Prioritizing Football over Hurling on the basis that we believe it's the best chance we have of being successful is absolutely ludicrous and the proof is the last 40+ years. That's exactly what we've done and not only have we not been successful, we've fallen significantly further down the ranks. Hurling at a national level took a brave decision some years ago by committing to a tiered structure for the championship and bringing in the Christy Ring, Nickey Rackard cups etc. The Football hierarchy has tried to pretend this isn't required for the best part of 20 years now but the reality is becoming clear , and with the Tailteann cup now cemented in the schedule, it's only a mater of time before more tiers are introduced. GAA Brass will welcome this as they'd much prefer to reduce the Sam Maguire to a smaller group of elite Football counties. Wicklow playing in the Sam Maguire is only optics and window dressing and when additional tiers are brought in , it's obvious that we'll be operating at or near the bottom tier. So when you boil it all down , as a county we are more or less ranked at the same level nationally in Hurling & Football. Attempting to apply logic through comparing how Wicklow teams fare in Football versus Hurling matches , like in the reference to Avondale's recent game with the KIlkenny champions , is also a nonsense. Hurling & Football are completely different games with different dynamics and physics at play. In Football , you can within reason create an illusion of competitiveness between teams of vastly different standards by adopting mass defenses & spoiling tactics etc which we now see routinely across all grades of the game. You cannot attempt to do this in Hurling where the ratio of scores are higher and even an average club hurler can pop a score even underpressure from 70-80yards out." Your argument doesn't stack up. In the last 40 years; Baltinglass were All Ireland senior club champions and Rathnew were Leinster senior club championship. If you put all the hurling clubs in Wicklow together and got them to compete in the equivalent hurling competition, they wouldn't win it. This is purely fact. Our minor hurlers were hammered out the gate in Leinster in recent years while our minor and u-20 footballers have been very competitive in the same province in the last decade. If Wicklow disbanded all football teams in the next 10 years and put every last penny into hurling, Wicklow still wouldn't make a dent in the hurling landscape even at underage - why? Because the gap between the top and bottom is too vast. The GAA in Croke Park have allowed hurling to become a minority sport with only the teams in Munster, Galway and a couple of team in Leinster able to win the All Ireland. One thing I agree with you about is that the hierarchy in Croke Park are trying to do the same with the football championship which shouldn't be allowed by counties like Wicklow as their aim is to have a few elite teams competing against each other. If I were a representative from Wicklow going up to congress I would never vote to allow the GAA increase any more levels to the football championship as it will only further damage the teams further down the ladder like what has happened in hurling. I never want to see football in Wicklow being where hurling is presently. We'll probably have to agree to disagree as you don't see my logic and I certainly don't see your logic. wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2029 - 06/12/2024 20:25:59 2582671 Link
Replying To wicklowsupport: "Your argument doesn't stack up. In the last 40 years; Baltinglass were All Ireland senior club champions and Rathnew were Leinster senior club championship. If you put all the hurling clubs in Wicklow together and got them to compete in the equivalent hurling competition, they wouldn't win it. This is purely fact. Our minor hurlers were hammered out the gate in Leinster in recent years while our minor and u-20 footballers have been very competitive in the same province in the last decade. If Wicklow disbanded all football teams in the next 10 years and put every last penny into hurling, Wicklow still wouldn't make a dent in the hurling landscape even at underage - why? Because the gap between the top and bottom is too vast. The GAA in Croke Park have allowed hurling to become a minority sport with only the teams in Munster, Galway and a couple of team in Leinster able to win the All Ireland. One thing I agree with you about is that the hierarchy in Croke Park are trying to do the same with the football championship which shouldn't be allowed by counties like Wicklow as their aim is to have a few elite teams competing against each other. If I were a representative from Wicklow going up to congress I would never vote to allow the GAA increase any more levels to the football championship as it will only further damage the teams further down the ladder like what has happened in hurling. I never want to see football in Wicklow being where hurling is presently. We'll probably have to agree to disagree as you don't see my logic and I certainly don't see your logic." Finally someone agrees with me on here. Albundy19 (Wicklow) - Posts: 73 - 08/12/2024 00:09:25 2582744 Link
Replying To Albundy19: "Finally someone agrees with me on here." @albundy19. What you think of the motion for even age again not even going to a vote because a typo. Reading it here I think the board didn't want it voted on so they didn't have to change and the paperwork that goes with it. Just give the clubs a vote everyone knew it was an honest mistake. StrandedinWW (Wicklow) - Posts: 42 - 09/12/2024 18:09:28 2582915 Link
Replying To StrandedinWW: "@albundy19. What you think of the motion for even age again not even going to a vote because a typo. Reading it here I think the board didn't want it voted on so they didn't have to change and the paperwork that goes with it. Just give the clubs a vote everyone knew it was an honest mistake." It does appear as if the "typo" had been spotted prior to the convention and clarification had been sought on the rules with a higher authority ? So, on the face of it, your take on the thing would stand up. If this was the case, how early in play was the error spotted? Surely it would have been possible to have the motion amended - if the top table were inclined to look favourably on it. Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1300 - 09/12/2024 18:53:06 2582918 Link
Replying To wicklowsupport: "Your argument doesn't stack up. In the last 40 years; Baltinglass were All Ireland senior club champions and Rathnew were Leinster senior club championship. If you put all the hurling clubs in Wicklow together and got them to compete in the equivalent hurling competition, they wouldn't win it. This is purely fact. Our minor hurlers were hammered out the gate in Leinster in recent years while our minor and u-20 footballers have been very competitive in the same province in the last decade. If Wicklow disbanded all football teams in the next 10 years and put every last penny into hurling, Wicklow still wouldn't make a dent in the hurling landscape even at underage - why? Because the gap between the top and bottom is too vast. The GAA in Croke Park have allowed hurling to become a minority sport with only the teams in Munster, Galway and a couple of team in Leinster able to win the All Ireland. One thing I agree with you about is that the hierarchy in Croke Park are trying to do the same with the football championship which shouldn't be allowed by counties like Wicklow as their aim is to have a few elite teams competing against each other. If I were a representative from Wicklow going up to congress I would never vote to allow the GAA increase any more levels to the football championship as it will only further damage the teams further down the ladder like what has happened in hurling. I never want to see football in Wicklow being where hurling is presently. We'll probably have to agree to disagree as you don't see my logic and I certainly don't see your logic." You are shifting the focus of what we are discussing here. The original discussion here is whether we could potentially make more progress in Hurling or Football if we prioritized one. You keep bringing up the gap to the elite teams etc. We have no business comparing ourselves to the elite Football or Hurling counties. We are in a different universe, Our barometer for progress should never be compared to what a Kerry or Kilkenny is doing. I've a made a point before here that we could, with the right investment and people involved, aspire to playing Joe McDonagh Hurling, win the under 20B Hurling Championship and be competitive in minor & U20 A Hurling Grades in the next 10-12 years. Carlow, Meath, Kildare and Westmeath have all done something similar in the last decade and all these are teams that we would have previously regarded as being at the same level as us. This would be realistic, achievable progress for Hurling. Again, for 40 + years we've prioritized Football over Hurling and not only have made zero progress but fell further & further behind. You state you "never want to see football in Wicklow being where hurling is presently" I'm not sure where you believe our football ranking is. How many counties do you think that we rank ahead of and are in a better state football wise. At a push the only county i'd say with any confidence is Waterford. ( A county that recently contemplated pulling the plug on their senior football team). We're probably at a similar level as Carlow , Wexford, Limerick & Leitrim, however if we played each of them 10 times across various levels Senior & Underage , I'd say we might win 50% of them. Outside of that , everyone else is ahead of us. So we are 28/29th maybe out of 31 football counties. This is the sad reality for where we are at. Hawkeye2 (Wicklow) - Posts: 141 - 09/12/2024 20:22:52 2582932 Link
How funny it is going to be this year to stand back and watch some of these new rules being implemented. Some players/managers/refs will struggle to remember all of these changes. Ball to be advanced 50 metres for dissent from a player. Thats over 1/3 of the length of the pitch. Advaned from one 45m line to inside the other. And lip from mentors is a 13m advancement. Forward Mark will be great. Kicked from outside the 45m line and caught by an attacker inside the 20 meter line is a mark, but the forward should always continue as they have an unlimited time advantage. Go for goal. If no advantage accrues then the referee must bring them back to take the mark. Its a free shot at goal everytime for an attacking mark. Break the 3 players rule minimum in each half, its a free to the opposition on your 20m line. Just some of the 'fun' rules that will cause pandemonium as half the people involved will not know the rules. Gaa_supporter (Wicklow) - Posts: 22 - 10/12/2024 00:41:27 2582960 Link
Replying To Hawkeye2: "You are shifting the focus of what we are discussing here. The original discussion here is whether we could potentially make more progress in Hurling or Football if we prioritized one. You keep bringing up the gap to the elite teams etc. We have no business comparing ourselves to the elite Football or Hurling counties. We are in a different universe, Our barometer for progress should never be compared to what a Kerry or Kilkenny is doing. I've a made a point before here that we could, with the right investment and people involved, aspire to playing Joe McDonagh Hurling, win the under 20B Hurling Championship and be competitive in minor & U20 A Hurling Grades in the next 10-12 years. Carlow, Meath, Kildare and Westmeath have all done something similar in the last decade and all these are teams that we would have previously regarded as being at the same level as us. This would be realistic, achievable progress for Hurling. Again, for 40 + years we've prioritized Football over Hurling and not only have made zero progress but fell further & further behind. You state you "never want to see football in Wicklow being where hurling is presently" I'm not sure where you believe our football ranking is. How many counties do you think that we rank ahead of and are in a better state football wise. At a push the only county i'd say with any confidence is Waterford. ( A county that recently contemplated pulling the plug on their senior football team). We're probably at a similar level as Carlow , Wexford, Limerick & Leitrim, however if we played each of them 10 times across various levels Senior & Underage , I'd say we might win 50% of them. Outside of that , everyone else is ahead of us. So we are 28/29th maybe out of 31 football counties. This is the sad reality for where we are at." I think it fair to say our relative ranking in hurling out of 32 would be higher. But it has to be viewed relatively as there huge parts of the country where there little to no hurling played and Wicklow too. I think your suggestion that we are not completive at underage age level in football is unfair, have we won anything? No, but for my definition we have been completive over the last 5 or 6 years, running Dublin close at u20 and u17 and beating them a couple of times. The u20's of 2 years ago blowing it to Louth still annoys me as i think that group had a real chance. I can not comment on the underage hurling teams as wouldn't follow that closely but some score lines vs Westmeath ect would suggest we have a way to go. For what it is worth I think if you were to put our u20's, U17's and Senior team this year vs Armagh and Clare , i know where my money be on it being closer. Just looking at elections make it clear where the population is, its that bray greystones area. It bloats our population but not our GAA teams. Honest if Wicklow wants to progress that population that needs to be tapped into. I think you can put all the money you like into hurling but it has to be a grass roots thing. I haven worked out how many clubs are in both but i can see we have over 3 times as many adults teams entered in the football leagues last year. I am not from a hurling area but do like watching it and have a lot of friends that are passionate about it. I think if Wicklow has an interest in hurling they should require all clubs to fielding a go games football team to also field a hurling team, get hurls in kids hands see if they like it. But from my view that would be the only way. Groundskeeper5 (Wicklow) - Posts: 24 - 10/12/2024 10:39:50 2582985 Link
Replying To Freethinker: "It does appear as if the "typo" had been spotted prior to the convention and clarification had been sought on the rules with a higher authority ? So, on the face of it, your take on the thing would stand up. If this was the case, how early in play was the error spotted? Surely it would have been possible to have the motion amended - if the top table were inclined to look favourably on it." Same as last season the county board don't want it end of story,Wicklow will be the last county back to even numbers. Albundy19 (Wicklow) - Posts: 73 - 12/12/2024 19:32:17 2583364 Link
From the Wicklow People after the recent county convention: "Senior football accounted for over €480,000, with €156,635 under the heading 'team managers and selectors'". That's a lot, is it lads? €156,635 for manager and selectors - that does not include physios, S&C, masseuse, etc. Just split between Oisin McConville, Des Jennings, Mark Doran and Gary Duffy? (And I'd doubt Gary Duffy gets much, he'd be doing it for the love of it I'd imagine?). Then there is the remainder, €330,000 for everything else. This is just for senior football, not hurling or underage. I wonder where that was spent? S&C, physio, food, buses, video, analysis. Wicklow wouldn't have been staying in a hotel the night before any games, unless maybe Sligo or Antrim? No trip to London. No training camp abroad. Just seems half a million is a lot of money, for a relegation in the league, one win over Westmeath, and a pretty average championship. What is the feeling in the county about this? OldSchoolRules (Australia) - Posts: 32 - 13/12/2024 10:51:40 2583420 Link
Good draw for Wicklow footballers ,we literally couldn't have picked it better ,hopefully we get back up to Div 3. Albundy19 (Wicklow) - Posts: 73 - 13/12/2024 12:52:38 2583436 Link
Replying To Albundy19: "Good draw for Wicklow footballers ,we literally couldn't have picked it better ,hopefully we get back up to Div 3." You are correct. If we fail to win promotion we can't blame the fixtures. We have four home games against Waterford, Longford, Carlow and Limerick. Three away fixtures against London, Wexford and Tipperary. Full list below. It is great to win championship games as the team did this year against Westmeath but for me, promotion from Division 4 should be the main aim for 2025. Division 4 is wide open next year. Wexford and Tipperary away plus Longford and Carlow at home are probably our hardest fixtures on paper!!! The team's problem in recent years is their inconsistency which makes it impossible to predict any game. Wicklow v Waterford (Home) London v Wicklow (Away) Wicklow v Longford (Home) Wexford v Wicklow (Away) Wicklow v Carlow (Home) Wicklow v Limerick (Home) Tipperary v Wicklow (Away) Happy Christmas to all the contributors to this forum. Hopefully some new people will contribute their opinions in 2025. wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2029 - 16/12/2024 11:25:38 2583725 Link