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2021 National Hurling League

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Replying To Malonemagic:  "To be honest I'm finding the huge scorelines very unsatisfying. Waterford and Galway s combined total was 72 yesterday. The skill and pace off the game are off the charts but as a spectacle I now find it boring. The extreme scoring means a point and a goal have now been completely devalued. Scoring a single point is pretty insignificant now , and a goal ( which used to be a massive score in a game ) is now little more than a boost to your chances. These scores aren't celebrated to the same extent because of their devaluation . There really is no jeopardy in the game until the the last 5 minutes . It also bothers me that the scoring feats of all the past greats are going to be wiped out pretty quickly if this continues. I know the game has evolved but I don't think it's for the better."
I would say if you thought about it a bit longer it's probably not the large tallies you don't like. It's more that most of the league games have been one sided. There's no tit for tat close games. You'd probably find it entertaining if both teams ended up with 30 scores a piece and it was close the whole way. How could you not? The advantage would be swinging much more in a game like that.

Fulgrim (Wexford) - Posts: 162 - 07/06/2021 11:09:47    2348777

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Replying To Malonemagic:  "To be honest I'm finding the huge scorelines very unsatisfying. Waterford and Galway s combined total was 72 yesterday. The skill and pace off the game are off the charts but as a spectacle I now find it boring. The extreme scoring means a point and a goal have now been completely devalued. Scoring a single point is pretty insignificant now , and a goal ( which used to be a massive score in a game ) is now little more than a boost to your chances. These scores aren't celebrated to the same extent because of their devaluation . There really is no jeopardy in the game until the the last 5 minutes . It also bothers me that the scoring feats of all the past greats are going to be wiped out pretty quickly if this continues. I know the game has evolved but I don't think it's for the better."
This weekend's fare for a lot of the games definitely improved on previous games but I think you're right, on average it's not the spectacle it had been. The fact it's being discussed across print, TV, radio and social media means quite a few are in agreement. Having a score or scoring attempt every 40-50 seconds dilutes the other qualities the game has

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1036 - 07/06/2021 11:30:22    2348778

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Replying To Fulgrim:  "I would say if you thought about it a bit longer it's probably not the large tallies you don't like. It's more that most of the league games have been one sided. There's no tit for tat close games. You'd probably find it entertaining if both teams ended up with 30 scores a piece and it was close the whole way. How could you not? The advantage would be swinging much more in a game like that."
No that's not really true for two reasons. The first is that, the higher the scoring the greater the likelihood of bigger winning margins. A small differential between the teams now is an 8-10 point margin. Its much harder to hang in a game compared to football or soccer. But the main reason is again the lack of value of individual scores. When Clare made the breakthrough in 95 and Wexford ended their drought in 96, the winning score on both occasions was 1-13, so Taffe' s goal and Larry O Gorman's point were iconic scores because of their value in the context of that scoring. Basically 20 per cent of Clare s total was scored in a moment which causes tremendous excitement. Perhaps the game is more just now. The better team will win 99 per cent of the time. The scoring system leaves little chance for underdogs. But I don't think it s as exciting.

Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 691 - 07/06/2021 11:44:43    2348780

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Replying To Ulsterman:  "It's brilliant that we've held on to our top tier status. We have massively improved in all areas; attitude, fitness, physical strength, skills, belief, competitiveness but especially commitment to the county jersey. Yes there will bumps and disappointments along the way but we seem to be putting the petty club and geographical differences aside at long last and playing for ANTRIM. I am so proud of all the lads but our thanks and gratitude must go to Darren Gleeson and his management/backroom team. Thank You."
Fantastic achievement, delighted for Antrim. Its great to see them building on last year's success.
Great to see them all pulling in the same direction. Hopefully they can take a few more scalps this year!

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1351 - 07/06/2021 12:47:38    2348787

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "This weekend's fare for a lot of the games definitely improved on previous games but I think you're right, on average it's not the spectacle it had been. The fact it's being discussed across print, TV, radio and social media means quite a few are in agreement. Having a score or scoring attempt every 40-50 seconds dilutes the other qualities the game has"
I think what most people want in a match is FLOW not some ref blowing a whistle nonstop. If the scores are high or low so be it as long as the match is moving along.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1335 - 07/06/2021 13:07:49    2348790

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Replying To Trump2020:  "I think what most people want in a match is FLOW not some ref blowing a whistle nonstop. If the scores are high or low so be it as long as the match is moving along."
A good rules change would be, on puck outs, goal keeper must puck the ball past half way line before his own team can touch the ball.

Newyorkkat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 42 - 07/06/2021 14:13:21    2348798

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Replying To Malonemagic:  "No that's not really true for two reasons. The first is that, the higher the scoring the greater the likelihood of bigger winning margins. A small differential between the teams now is an 8-10 point margin. Its much harder to hang in a game compared to football or soccer. But the main reason is again the lack of value of individual scores. When Clare made the breakthrough in 95 and Wexford ended their drought in 96, the winning score on both occasions was 1-13, so Taffe' s goal and Larry O Gorman's point were iconic scores because of their value in the context of that scoring. Basically 20 per cent of Clare s total was scored in a moment which causes tremendous excitement. Perhaps the game is more just now. The better team will win 99 per cent of the time. The scoring system leaves little chance for underdogs. But I don't think it s as exciting."
I think what a lot of people are ignoring is the lack of crowds and the impact it has on people perception of the excitement of the game. Last year we all put up with it but it was the championship and everyone was just glad to see it all back, this year its the league. Look at the difference around 500 made to the Antrim Wexford game - it was a poor games as regards skills and execration but everyone though it was great. So when crowds come back and everyone at the game is yelling for a free on one side and cursing the ref on the other - who will really care? Its not just Hurling but all team sports are the same at the moment, we are all watching on the TV with not an ounce of atmosphere coming through on the TV, so we overly focus on the actual game. I for one wouldn't be worried about it. If we don't get crowds back I think intercounty as we know it will disappear anyway.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1260 - 07/06/2021 14:33:28    2348800

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Replying To Newyorkkat:  "A good rules change would be, on puck outs, goal keeper must puck the ball past half way line before his own team can touch the ball."
Interesting. Yeah that would be worth a look. Of course the defense on a puck out would all pack their end in anticipation of the ball coming to that half.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1335 - 07/06/2021 14:55:05    2348805

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Replying To Newyorkkat:  "A good rules change would be, on puck outs, goal keeper must puck the ball past half way line before his own team can touch the ball."
Ludicrous. Defending team then filters everyone back in that case while the team with the puckout has to mainly hold their positions. Would turn into an awful spectacle

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 3104 - 07/06/2021 15:20:50    2348807

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Replying To Malonemagic:  "No that's not really true for two reasons. The first is that, the higher the scoring the greater the likelihood of bigger winning margins. A small differential between the teams now is an 8-10 point margin. Its much harder to hang in a game compared to football or soccer. But the main reason is again the lack of value of individual scores. When Clare made the breakthrough in 95 and Wexford ended their drought in 96, the winning score on both occasions was 1-13, so Taffe' s goal and Larry O Gorman's point were iconic scores because of their value in the context of that scoring. Basically 20 per cent of Clare s total was scored in a moment which causes tremendous excitement. Perhaps the game is more just now. The better team will win 99 per cent of the time. The scoring system leaves little chance for underdogs. But I don't think it s as exciting."
Well it looks like Laois won't be worrying too much about out scoring any team this year they look like they have gone backwards and quickly. Yet another poor display against a kilkenny team going through the motions. Our forward line has been non existent all year. Ross King has been out best player from play and got his usual few points yesterday but his confidence looks in tatters and he was taken off yesterday when poorer performers stayed on. Its going to be a quick year gone from being competitive to the whipping boys.

Richardkimble (Laois) - Posts: 31 - 07/06/2021 15:21:13    2348808

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Replying To Malonemagic:  "To be honest I'm finding the huge scorelines very unsatisfying. Waterford and Galway s combined total was 72 yesterday. The skill and pace off the game are off the charts but as a spectacle I now find it boring. The extreme scoring means a point and a goal have now been completely devalued. Scoring a single point is pretty insignificant now , and a goal ( which used to be a massive score in a game ) is now little more than a boost to your chances. These scores aren't celebrated to the same extent because of their devaluation . There really is no jeopardy in the game until the the last 5 minutes . It also bothers me that the scoring feats of all the past greats are going to be wiped out pretty quickly if this continues. I know the game has evolved but I don't think it's for the better."
This is my argument for awhile. If you take 70 scores (1 a minute) and the last play was it leaving the stick until the ball is back in contention from the restart ( close to half a minute) the amount of hurling is very little anymore. This plus other stoppages for frees and side line balls. You can dress it up anyway you want but that is the reality. If this is how we like the game fair enough. If we want a hurling games to break out then some correction is required. To sum up this game is now all restarts, rucks, basket ball type scores from non contested play, non contact, faking, pulling jerseys, dangerous neck challenges, body builder style great athletes and still we love it. However where has the hurling gone ?

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1639 - 07/06/2021 15:32:40    2348809

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Replying To Richardkimble:  "Well it looks like Laois won't be worrying too much about out scoring any team this year they look like they have gone backwards and quickly. Yet another poor display against a kilkenny team going through the motions. Our forward line has been non existent all year. Ross King has been out best player from play and got his usual few points yesterday but his confidence looks in tatters and he was taken off yesterday when poorer performers stayed on. Its going to be a quick year gone from being competitive to the whipping boys."
It is sad to see this. From been competitive enough to holding up the white flag. Everyone won't be All-Ireland winners but Laios, Westmeath, Antrim, Offaly and Kerry etc. are needed at a level that keeps the game interesting .Unfortunately with basketball like scores that is more aloof for them. Producing results against the chasing pack is fundamental to their development. There is an excitement now that Antrim are getting results.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1639 - 07/06/2021 16:53:57    2348819

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Replying To Newyorkkat:  "A good rules change would be, on puck outs, goal keeper must puck the ball past half way line before his own team can touch the ball."
How would that improve the flow of the game?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3086 - 07/06/2021 17:13:09    2348824

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Replying To Canuck:  "This is my argument for awhile. If you take 70 scores (1 a minute) and the last play was it leaving the stick until the ball is back in contention from the restart ( close to half a minute) the amount of hurling is very little anymore. This plus other stoppages for frees and side line balls. You can dress it up anyway you want but that is the reality. If this is how we like the game fair enough. If we want a hurling games to break out then some correction is required. To sum up this game is now all restarts, rucks, basket ball type scores from non contested play, non contact, faking, pulling jerseys, dangerous neck challenges, body builder style great athletes and still we love it. However where has the hurling gone ?"
There are more shots. More soloing. More scoring. There is less ground hurling and aerial striking because wild pulls low or high are deemed dangerous because they probably are. There is less aimless ping pong up and down the pitch so probably less aerial high ball to compete for. Possession based play has come into hurling the same as football, soccer and rugby union before it but unless you opt for the ludicrous rule rugby league follows it's very difficult to force teams to give the ball away.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3086 - 07/06/2021 17:20:46    2348826

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Replying To Canuck:  "This is my argument for awhile. If you take 70 scores (1 a minute) and the last play was it leaving the stick until the ball is back in contention from the restart ( close to half a minute) the amount of hurling is very little anymore. This plus other stoppages for frees and side line balls. You can dress it up anyway you want but that is the reality. If this is how we like the game fair enough. If we want a hurling games to break out then some correction is required. To sum up this game is now all restarts, rucks, basket ball type scores from non contested play, non contact, faking, pulling jerseys, dangerous neck challenges, body builder style great athletes and still we love it. However where has the hurling gone ?"
There are more shots. More soloing. More scoring. There is less ground hurling and aerial striking because wild pulls low or high are deemed dangerous because they probably are. There is less aimless ping pong up and down the pitch so probably less aerial high ball to compete for. Possession based play has come into hurling the same as football, soccer and rugby union before it but unless you opt for the ludicrous rule rugby league follows it's very difficult to force teams to give the ball away.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3086 - 07/06/2021 17:21:19    2348827

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Replying To Canuck:  "This is my argument for awhile. If you take 70 scores (1 a minute) and the last play was it leaving the stick until the ball is back in contention from the restart ( close to half a minute) the amount of hurling is very little anymore. This plus other stoppages for frees and side line balls. You can dress it up anyway you want but that is the reality. If this is how we like the game fair enough. If we want a hurling games to break out then some correction is required. To sum up this game is now all restarts, rucks, basket ball type scores from non contested play, non contact, faking, pulling jerseys, dangerous neck challenges, body builder style great athletes and still we love it. However where has the hurling gone ?"
What aspects of hurling are you missing?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3086 - 07/06/2021 17:22:08    2348828

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Replying To Canuck:  "This is my argument for awhile. If you take 70 scores (1 a minute) and the last play was it leaving the stick until the ball is back in contention from the restart ( close to half a minute) the amount of hurling is very little anymore. This plus other stoppages for frees and side line balls. You can dress it up anyway you want but that is the reality. If this is how we like the game fair enough. If we want a hurling games to break out then some correction is required. To sum up this game is now all restarts, rucks, basket ball type scores from non contested play, non contact, faking, pulling jerseys, dangerous neck challenges, body builder style great athletes and still we love it. However where has the hurling gone ?"
What hurling are you looking for that's gone. it's a great product now ball striking, fitness, team play and skill level is way better than it ever was. I think the hurling is way better than it ever was. Surely we don't want the negativity that infested the football back over 10 years ago with 15 players behind the ball and sideways and backward passing and ultra low scoring. I wonder is this all because a team not normally seen as a traditional hurling powerhouse in Limerick becoming the best team in the country.

Richardkimble (Laois) - Posts: 31 - 07/06/2021 18:14:30    2348836

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The only problem with hurling is the sliotar is too light. There's something wrong with a game when a goalie can score the full length of the field which happened in a recent league game.

As a neutral, most of the games have become boring, high scoring doesn't always mean high entertainment, I'd nearly prefer to watch a tactical master class between two Italian soccer teams which ended 0-0.

Scoring has become like throwing a stone at a barn door from 20'. I think highly skilled players need more of a challenge than that, it's all too easy, every possession nearly ends in a score, that's what's boring about it, for me anyway.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1946 - 07/06/2021 18:45:45    2348839

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Replying To Viking66:  "What aspects of hurling are you missing?"
The most obvious 'aspect' that's missing imo is the degree of 50:50 contest for for the main part,possession.

Watch the old all-ireland reruns on eirsport, and you'll see players ' clearing their lines' continually, without giving a 'sh1t' where that possession is going. Back then, it was heading for a 50:50 contest for possession mostly, hence the excitement, the anticipation, will we win the ball, will they win it etc. This was the constant verve of the game's flow back then.

In recent seasons, like football, stats took an increasing toll, and possession became king. Ball retention. All hurling teams are playing the 'Fenway Park ping it to hand possession game' a lot now. If they're not pinging it to hand, they're paying huge attention to putting the ball into areas that advantage their teammates only, or even playing short ball retention with hand passing movements. This has removed a huge chunk of the 50:50 possession struggles from the game. I see that as one of the major style changes. To go 'all Derek McGrath' about it, we all remember the great centreback displays over the years, when some no6 cleaned his zone for 60-80mins of a championship game, and twas a sight to behold surely. That wouldn't happen these days. couldn't happen really, because teams aren't placing their possession into that sort of 50:50 jeopardy anymore.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 2506 - 07/06/2021 19:06:48    2348841

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Replying To Richardkimble:  "What hurling are you looking for that's gone. it's a great product now ball striking, fitness, team play and skill level is way better than it ever was. I think the hurling is way better than it ever was. Surely we don't want the negativity that infested the football back over 10 years ago with 15 players behind the ball and sideways and backward passing and ultra low scoring. I wonder is this all because a team not normally seen as a traditional hurling powerhouse in Limerick becoming the best team in the country."
This argument was happening in the club group chat the other day and I had to laugh at some of the old boys pining for ground hurling and other things we saw in the 90s. So I said to them sure all we need is a bunch of new rules; hurls can only be shaped like slash hooks, you are awarded points when you pull on the ground and it goes to an opposing player, tie lads to poles at each position so they can't roam, make sure lads can't go to the ball wall/field and practice their striking for more than a couple of hours a week, ban using gyms, force lads to have pints at least once every couple of weeks, etc. The point was to highlight how ridiculous it is.

Can't get over dinosaurs looking for the game to regress because it doesn't resemble what they had growing up.

Fulgrim (Wexford) - Posts: 162 - 07/06/2021 19:22:55    2348846

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