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Peter Keane The Future?

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Replying To sourmilk93:  "Pre Lockdown Kerry had Buckley the best defensive/Tackling coach in the country. Post they didn't and Keane had to implement a defensive system to make up for it. This involved him playing 2 defensive minded players at wing forward. Last year Kerry went man for man and were a whisper away. They had done this by improving their defenders tackling through coaching and thrusted them like Mayo have done down the years when Buckley was involved."
Kerry went man for man having a man extra and drew sourmilk. 15 v 15 was a different proposition and overall the Dubs physical conditioning and pace was the essential difference, both days. But you could be right about Keane deciding to move to a system, but maybe before Buckley walked, to counter the Dubs individual athletic superiority. Might be the reason Buckley decided to hit the road?

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2303 - 01/12/2020 18:23:35    2317410

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Replying To Pericles:  "Kerry went man for man having a man extra and drew sourmilk. 15 v 15 was a different proposition and overall the Dubs physical conditioning and pace was the essential difference, both days. But you could be right about Keane deciding to move to a system, but maybe before Buckley walked, to counter the Dubs individual athletic superiority. Might be the reason Buckley decided to hit the road?"
I think that's as accurate and succinct a description of what happened as I have read. Kerry were simply blown away physically the second day and were completely spent with ten minutes to go. It's was also very obvious how mismatched the Kerry defenders were, particularly in the full back line. Perhaps that's the reason that Keane wanted to get more guys back there.

I think Donie left because he and PK had fundamentally differing views on how they wanted to play. He was foisted on Peter by all accounts and I think they clashed and it became uncomfortable for everyone. I don't have any inside info or anything, I'm just reading between the lines.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2055 - 01/12/2020 19:12:57    2317425

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "I think that's as accurate and succinct a description of what happened as I have read. Kerry were simply blown away physically the second day and were completely spent with ten minutes to go. It's was also very obvious how mismatched the Kerry defenders were, particularly in the full back line. Perhaps that's the reason that Keane wanted to get more guys back there.

I think Donie left because he and PK had fundamentally differing views on how they wanted to play. He was foisted on Peter by all accounts and I think they clashed and it became uncomfortable for everyone. I don't have any inside info or anything, I'm just reading between the lines."
It was the same in semi-final against ourselves Gerry, though it didn't take two games, just two halves. Mayo were better than the Dubs in the first half and the one point lead wasn't either representative or enough. In the second half when the energy levels dropped, hastened by Con's goal, that was it... the Dubs basically ran our lads off the pitch. What JH is looking to do is get Mayo back to being able to match the Dubs physically. Without that the quality of your footballers v theirs is meaningless... it's like throwing snow into a furnace.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2303 - 01/12/2020 19:48:56    2317442

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Think the physical fitness and conditioning thing is a bit of a myth to be honest. I think a lot of counties put a big emphasise on fitness and conditioning because they perceive that is what Dublin do. I think that is the wrong judgement myself.

Dublin are all fit lads, but if you watch any Dublin game and the come up against resistance or mass/blanket defences, there is a clear plan in place, for Dublin to hold possession, use the ball, let it travel, switch flanks, switch between the lines, front to back, use the space, use as many of your own players as possible, conserve your energy, wait for the gap and score. Time and time again, Dublin are just draining the legs of a team trying to keep them out and the physical and mental toll that takes as a team effort. It's game management, conserve your own energy, dictate the game, drain your opponent for later in the game, make them work for a few mins chasing shadows and they will be tired for their next phase of play. Happens game after game, after every big game and see examples from Mayo and Kerry lads above and they are cases in point, the take home for these counties is to get fitter and be better conditioned, it's a fools errand in my opinion. It's more about skills in game management and energy conservation then fitness or conditioning. But I'm cool with others spending huge resources on it.

Of course to be very fair, Dublin have exceptional match witching strength in depth. I remember Jim Gavin smiling once when asked the question, What is your best starting 15 Jim?

"I don't start with my best 15 players, I finish with them" - Was always a great master stroke by Jim, he did it time and again.

It's all good the fitness and conditioning rep, it all adds to the myth and aura.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3971 - 01/12/2020 21:00:43    2317459

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Think the physical fitness and conditioning thing is a bit of a myth to be honest. I think a lot of counties put a big emphasise on fitness and conditioning because they perceive that is what Dublin do. I think that is the wrong judgement myself.

Dublin are all fit lads, but if you watch any Dublin game and the come up against resistance or mass/blanket defences, there is a clear plan in place, for Dublin to hold possession, use the ball, let it travel, switch flanks, switch between the lines, front to back, use the space, use as many of your own players as possible, conserve your energy, wait for the gap and score. Time and time again, Dublin are just draining the legs of a team trying to keep them out and the physical and mental toll that takes as a team effort. It's game management, conserve your own energy, dictate the game, drain your opponent for later in the game, make them work for a few mins chasing shadows and they will be tired for their next phase of play. Happens game after game, after every big game and see examples from Mayo and Kerry lads above and they are cases in point, the take home for these counties is to get fitter and be better conditioned, it's a fools errand in my opinion. It's more about skills in game management and energy conservation then fitness or conditioning. But I'm cool with others spending huge resources on it.

Of course to be very fair, Dublin have exceptional match witching strength in depth. I remember Jim Gavin smiling once when asked the question, What is your best starting 15 Jim?

"I don't start with my best 15 players, I finish with them" - Was always a great master stroke by Jim, he did it time and again.

It's all good the fitness and conditioning rep, it all adds to the myth and aura."
Such self serving delusional raiméis, god almighty!

Of course tactics and execution come in to it but Pericles was saying that you have to be on par physically or you are at nothing. Most teams aren't, putting them on the back foot before the ball is thrown in.

Dublin were the first county to hire full time S & C personnel, put high performance programmes in place and have generally embraced sports science in a way that no other team ever has. They are quite open about it so Jim Gavin clearly understood the value of it, even if you don't. Why did they bother with all of that if it is not effective? Are you embarrassed that it has been a cornerstone of their success?

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2055 - 01/12/2020 22:34:08    2317502

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Think the physical fitness and conditioning thing is a bit of a myth to be honest. I think a lot of counties put a big emphasise on fitness and conditioning because they perceive that is what Dublin do. I think that is the wrong judgement myself.

Dublin are all fit lads, but if you watch any Dublin game and the come up against resistance or mass/blanket defences, there is a clear plan in place, for Dublin to hold possession, use the ball, let it travel, switch flanks, switch between the lines, front to back, use the space, use as many of your own players as possible, conserve your energy, wait for the gap and score. Time and time again, Dublin are just draining the legs of a team trying to keep them out and the physical and mental toll that takes as a team effort. It's game management, conserve your own energy, dictate the game, drain your opponent for later in the game, make them work for a few mins chasing shadows and they will be tired for their next phase of play. Happens game after game, after every big game and see examples from Mayo and Kerry lads above and they are cases in point, the take home for these counties is to get fitter and be better conditioned, it's a fools errand in my opinion. It's more about skills in game management and energy conservation then fitness or conditioning. But I'm cool with others spending huge resources on it.

Of course to be very fair, Dublin have exceptional match witching strength in depth. I remember Jim Gavin smiling once when asked the question, What is your best starting 15 Jim?

"I don't start with my best 15 players, I finish with them" - Was always a great master stroke by Jim, he did it time and again.

It's all good the fitness and conditioning rep, it all adds to the myth and aura."
That's a wind up post if ever there was one! haha

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2487 - 01/12/2020 23:13:41    2317515

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Replying To icehonesty:  "That's a wind up post if ever there was one! haha"
I wouldn't call that a wind up to be fair icehonesty, it's a good post and a different perspective but I agree with Gerry. A thing I recall from last year's Dubs/Mayo game is that Mayo in the first half held the ball for long periods, set up in that semi-circle just outside the Dub's 45 and moved the ball from side to side probing for openings. The one thing it didn't do for sure was knock anything out of the Dublin players in the way Username says the Dubs do to oppositions by applying the same tactics. It shattered Mayo physically though. Part of that might have been down to Mayo playing Donegal 6 days before and a series of backdoor games before that, but a lot of it was what Gerry was referring to... having Dubs players on the pitch expertly conditioned and with the best engines to suit the game plan on the big Croke Park pitch. They're not universally the most skilful footballers in Dublin and the proof of that is how Jim G dispensed with the likes of Connolly and Flynn.... real football talents traded in early for younger more athletic types. Anyone who's ever played the game knows the good feeling of being marked by someone unable to stay with you. The Dubs athletically outmatch most teams in at least 10 out of 15 match-ups. That's a comfortable 10 or 12 point win, with another 2 or 3 points for every additional match-up won. There's nothing wrong with what the Dubs are doing, quite the opposite, but any team who wants to compete and go man for man has to start by selecting players fit and fast enough to cover all of those mesmerising off the ball runs for 70+ minutes. No one's made a system work since 2014, so on that score I'd be on Donie Buckley's side. However if more time is needed to find those players then just trying the same thing as the previous year was unlikely to work either and so I can see why PK might have decided to chance something different. One thing PK and JH have in common is that they can see the problem and are trying to find answers. Unfortunately this is not happening at all in Leinster right now where Meath and Kildare are still trying to respond to the Dubs as they were 5 years ago.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2303 - 02/12/2020 01:21:30    2317539

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Replying To Pericles:  "Kerry went man for man having a man extra and drew sourmilk. 15 v 15 was a different proposition and overall the Dubs physical conditioning and pace was the essential difference, both days. But you could be right about Keane deciding to move to a system, but maybe before Buckley walked, to counter the Dubs individual athletic superiority. Might be the reason Buckley decided to hit the road?"
Kerry done those things alright but you forgot to mention that they made some poor decisions and had some bad misses also. Now , you can say that tiredness caused these errors but that would be incorrect IMO.
The wides kicked and the completely unnecessary knock down to Murchin were not due to tiredness but purely bad decision making under pressure. Murchin took his opportunity brilliantly but that wasn't down to anything to with physical conditioning superiority. If anything Moran had every advantage in that department.
Overall , Kerry lost because they just met a better team who have been the dominant force now for a decade. Kerry have now been beaten by Cork who were shown up by Tipperary.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2023 - 02/12/2020 07:34:49    2317554

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Replying To catch22:  "Kerry done those things alright but you forgot to mention that they made some poor decisions and had some bad misses also. Now , you can say that tiredness caused these errors but that would be incorrect IMO.
The wides kicked and the completely unnecessary knock down to Murchin were not due to tiredness but purely bad decision making under pressure. Murchin took his opportunity brilliantly but that wasn't down to anything to with physical conditioning superiority. If anything Moran had every advantage in that department.
Overall , Kerry lost because they just met a better team who have been the dominant force now for a decade. Kerry have now been beaten by Cork who were shown up by Tipperary."
I think Cork, looked at Dublin in the final last year and used the blue print to beat Kerry. Its what I describe above, Cork did exactly the same thing Dublin do, they held possession, in front of Kerry's defensive structure, knocking the ball around in front of their blanket and picking their scores. They made Kerry chase shadows, expend huge energy, empty their legs and diminish their energy. It worked a treat for Cork, when Kerry eventually got possession they were so physically and mentally tired they couldn't support their isolated forward line and were mentally fatigued leading to poor decision making, errors and poor execution of skills and thus the game was lost.

Cork used the Dublin model to beat Kerry, of course their were unique variables for Cork.

But I think in general like I say for Dublin and Cork it was good game management skills, rather then S/C or fitness. Not that either team are unfit, but their is no magic algorithm, the body has finite potential.

Think it's a horrible waste of resources, have noticed a few teams this year over conditioned at the detriment of other finer footballing skills.

Think the whole thing is a bit of a myth and a fools errand really, but each to their own.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3971 - 02/12/2020 09:52:30    2317573

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I think Cork, looked at Dublin in the final last year and used the blue print to beat Kerry. Its what I describe above, Cork did exactly the same thing Dublin do, they held possession, in front of Kerry's defensive structure, knocking the ball around in front of their blanket and picking their scores. They made Kerry chase shadows, expend huge energy, empty their legs and diminish their energy. It worked a treat for Cork, when Kerry eventually got possession they were so physically and mentally tired they couldn't support their isolated forward line and were mentally fatigued leading to poor decision making, errors and poor execution of skills and thus the game was lost.

Cork used the Dublin model to beat Kerry, of course their were unique variables for Cork.

But I think in general like I say for Dublin and Cork it was good game management skills, rather then S/C or fitness. Not that either team are unfit, but their is no magic algorithm, the body has finite potential.

Think it's a horrible waste of resources, have noticed a few teams this year over conditioned at the detriment of other finer footballing skills.

Think the whole thing is a bit of a myth and a fools errand really, but each to their own."
Funny you should be talking about such things username

O'Sullivan backs up what you're saying when referring to Dublin's mental strength in a recent article

"With the demands on players outside of football and obviously we talk about the pressure of not winning an All-Ireland, I do think it's an area where we're lacking. I do think it's an area where Dublin are strong.

"If you look at all their games, how many All-Irelands have Dublin won by more than three or four points? Not many. That's down to their mental toughness. You can say physically that maybe we weren't as fit as them or as fast, I think that's bullshit. My thing is, if you're mentally strong you don't get tired, you come into it then."


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40110926.html%3ftype=amp

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20282 - 02/12/2020 10:11:48    2317582

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Keane to stay on..A great manager

mayo4sam2020 (Mayo) - Posts: 11 - 02/12/2020 11:05:11    2317607

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I think Cork, looked at Dublin in the final last year and used the blue print to beat Kerry. Its what I describe above, Cork did exactly the same thing Dublin do, they held possession, in front of Kerry's defensive structure, knocking the ball around in front of their blanket and picking their scores. They made Kerry chase shadows, expend huge energy, empty their legs and diminish their energy. It worked a treat for Cork, when Kerry eventually got possession they were so physically and mentally tired they couldn't support their isolated forward line and were mentally fatigued leading to poor decision making, errors and poor execution of skills and thus the game was lost.

Cork used the Dublin model to beat Kerry, of course their were unique variables for Cork.

But I think in general like I say for Dublin and Cork it was good game management skills, rather then S/C or fitness. Not that either team are unfit, but their is no magic algorithm, the body has finite potential.

Think it's a horrible waste of resources, have noticed a few teams this year over conditioned at the detriment of other finer footballing skills.

Think the whole thing is a bit of a myth and a fools errand really, but each to their own."
Mayo did the same thing Username in the first half of last year's semi-final for long periods. It had no draining effect whatsoever on the Dubs players either mentally or physically. If it works so well on Dub's opponents why did it not work on the Dubs? Mental toughness won't get you through an entire second half running on empty.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2303 - 02/12/2020 13:32:42    2317657

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Funny you should be talking about such things username

O'Sullivan backs up what you're saying when referring to Dublin's mental strength in a recent article

"With the demands on players outside of football and obviously we talk about the pressure of not winning an All-Ireland, I do think it's an area where we're lacking. I do think it's an area where Dublin are strong.

"If you look at all their games, how many All-Irelands have Dublin won by more than three or four points? Not many. That's down to their mental toughness. You can say physically that maybe we weren't as fit as them or as fast, I think that's bullshit. My thing is, if you're mentally strong you don't get tired, you come into it then."


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40110926.html%3ftype=amp"
Coming back from the adversity of serial losses in close games, sometimes due to outrageous breaks, is a sign of real mental toughness. Getting over the line in tight games and being serial winners is more a sign of self-belief and confidence.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2303 - 02/12/2020 13:41:09    2317664

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Replying To Pericles:  "Mayo did the same thing Username in the first half of last year's semi-final for long periods. It had no draining effect whatsoever on the Dubs players either mentally or physically. If it works so well on Dub's opponents why did it not work on the Dubs? Mental toughness won't get you through an entire second half running on empty."
I think it did work, i think Mayo had Dublin rattled in the first half and half time saved them - i know i was worried. I think depleting aspects for Mayo were it was a new system and i dont think they were penetrating enough with it, they hit some bad wides, they had awful injuies anyway and i think Dublin had better players on the day, a big one was Hennelly having a meltdoown for 10 mins and kicking away posession and undermining everyting they achieved in the first half - a complete turnaround to keeping pocsession so perfectly it in the first half. Dublin didnt need to go to the tank the game was over on 45min mark. So Mayo did it for about 50% of the match, but won the first half doing before melting really.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3971 - 02/12/2020 14:19:33    2317675

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Reports trending re player vote/revolt in the Kingdom"
Yeah i wouldn't say its going down too well in Kerry being the third best team in Munster!

DUBJOHN (Dublin) - Posts: 851 - 02/12/2020 18:15:47    2317750

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Reports trending re player vote/revolt in the Kingdom"
Yeah i wouldn't say its going down too well in Kerry being the third best team in Munster!

DUBJOHN (Dublin) - Posts: 851 - 02/12/2020 18:16:19    2317751

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Replying To DUBJOHN:  "Yeah i wouldn't say its going down too well in Kerry being the third best team in Munster!"
Sure maybe Kerry are nt the 3 best team in munster.Maybe we are fourth or fifth.Tipp beat Clare by 3 points and Tipp needed extra time to beat Limerick.And Munster is the weakest province we are told so id say Kerry must be very low in the national ranking.ive a funny feeling we might get better next year and get into the top 15 anyway.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 1867 - 02/12/2020 19:55:07    2317792

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I think it did work, i think Mayo had Dublin rattled in the first half and half time saved them - i know i was worried. I think depleting aspects for Mayo were it was a new system and i dont think they were penetrating enough with it, they hit some bad wides, they had awful injuies anyway and i think Dublin had better players on the day, a big one was Hennelly having a meltdoown for 10 mins and kicking away posession and undermining everyting they achieved in the first half - a complete turnaround to keeping pocsession so perfectly it in the first half. Dublin didnt need to go to the tank the game was over on 45min mark. So Mayo did it for about 50% of the match, but won the first half doing before melting really."
I think we're pretty much agreeing Username. Mayo melted in the second half and the Dubs didn't need to go to the tank, as you say. There were factors that hastened the draining of Mayo's resistance, like you describe, but ultimately they weren't able to respond physically in the way had been doing a couple of years before. They just weren't able to sustain the effort and match the Dub's energy levels so your lads eased away in the second half.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2303 - 03/12/2020 11:19:22    2317904

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Keane has made a lot of enemies who would have held their tongues if Kerry were successful but he is in a very vulnerable position now. If he survives at all, he's in the last chance saloon. If Kerry don't win Sam next year, he's gone. Personally, I think his tactics v Cork were a sackable offence. I don't buy this line that he can't be responsible for players mistakes. He'd be the one taking credit when they do well.

FootblockREF (Monaghan) - Posts: 497 - 07/12/2020 16:22:27    2319836

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That is normal in foot ball, especially big leagues. We don't call it politics but what's happening within the organization is a game of influence rather than idealism. If you are not making enemies then you never had an impact in the industry in the first place. It is true that he is in trouble, though.

KaitlynnDuff (Longford) - Posts: 17 - 14/12/2020 13:13:01    2322279

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