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Tipperary Hurling Final

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I for one think Limerick and Wexford play in a really entertaining way. For 40-50 mins (or longer) against Tipp last year you couldn't not be impressed with Wexford. In a sense it was all out attack. I wasn't a fan of Waterford under Derek McGrath as they were too often forced into potshots, but that's just my opinion. The day of Paul Murphy/Jackie Tyrell/Tommy Walsh booming high balls down the middle is over. While extremely effective when KK were at their peak, I dont necessarily think thats the way hurling should be played either.
There was a huge difference in how the two back lines hurled last Sunday. When a Kildangan back got a ball he almost always played it short to a man who made himself available in a better position, where as John Meagher for example cleared ball long every time he won possession. Kildangan play a brand of hurling I dont think I've seen from a hurling team at club level and its the reason why they won without any standout county players.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 25/09/2020 16:39:52    2294070

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Replying To gatha:  "The reason i picked out Limerick and Wexford is because they have perfected this new running style of hurling. The game Sunday was a throw back. Noel McGrath scored 2 points one from each side of the field that were super scores. Cian Lynch, who in my opinion is one of, if not the most talented hurler in Ireland would never attempt those 2 shots. Could he score them, absolutely. Donegal won an All-Ireland and fair play to them, since that the powers that be are constantly tinkering with the game to try and bring some of the old skills back. New is not always better. Watching players of the ability of Limerick run down the field looking over each shoulder looking for someone to hand pass it to instead of sending it into a talented forward line in my opinion is not the way the game was meant to be played. The middle third is all we hear about because teams are running the ball down the field. The reason Kilkenny drop the half forward line back is to try and stop this running game. Cody is on record numerous time saying he doesn't like this style of hurling but he knows what has to be done and is doing it. Watch this game from Sunday and tell me it is not a better brand f hurling then what we see at the county level today. Absolutely brilliant game."
The 2001 AISF was also a brilliant gsme but KK lost and bit by bit things changed. I am also sure Louhhmore/Castleiney would prefer to win a poor game than lose a fine one, especially when they were favourites.

Oldertourman (Limerick) - Posts: 162 - 25/09/2020 17:30:59    2294081

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Replying To gatha:  "The reason i picked out Limerick and Wexford is because they have perfected this new running style of hurling. The game Sunday was a throw back. Noel McGrath scored 2 points one from each side of the field that were super scores. Cian Lynch, who in my opinion is one of, if not the most talented hurler in Ireland would never attempt those 2 shots. Could he score them, absolutely. Donegal won an All-Ireland and fair play to them, since that the powers that be are constantly tinkering with the game to try and bring some of the old skills back. New is not always better. Watching players of the ability of Limerick run down the field looking over each shoulder looking for someone to hand pass it to instead of sending it into a talented forward line in my opinion is not the way the game was meant to be played. The middle third is all we hear about because teams are running the ball down the field. The reason Kilkenny drop the half forward line back is to try and stop this running game. Cody is on record numerous time saying he doesn't like this style of hurling but he knows what has to be done and is doing it. Watch this game from Sunday and tell me it is not a better brand f hurling then what we see at the county level today. Absolutely brilliant game."
I will agree with you about the hand passing . There is now more hand passing than stick work. A very very simple solution that I have said before. The elbow needs to be seen to come back with separation between the hand and ball. This will result in the ball been turned over a lot more often and players will not use it as much. What I see most of the time is the ball thrown forward and followed by the hand. Sometimes never making contact. Too hard to ref. Not at all. If the ref gets some wrong like any other frees so be it.The players will think twice about doing it. A distinct movement back of the elbow and a striking action of the ball and if not visible call a free.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 25/09/2020 18:38:10    2294094

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Replying To gatha:  "The reason i picked out Limerick and Wexford is because they have perfected this new running style of hurling. The game Sunday was a throw back. Noel McGrath scored 2 points one from each side of the field that were super scores. Cian Lynch, who in my opinion is one of, if not the most talented hurler in Ireland would never attempt those 2 shots. Could he score them, absolutely. Donegal won an All-Ireland and fair play to them, since that the powers that be are constantly tinkering with the game to try and bring some of the old skills back. New is not always better. Watching players of the ability of Limerick run down the field looking over each shoulder looking for someone to hand pass it to instead of sending it into a talented forward line in my opinion is not the way the game was meant to be played. The middle third is all we hear about because teams are running the ball down the field. The reason Kilkenny drop the half forward line back is to try and stop this running game. Cody is on record numerous time saying he doesn't like this style of hurling but he knows what has to be done and is doing it. Watch this game from Sunday and tell me it is not a better brand f hurling then what we see at the county level today. Absolutely brilliant game."
So limerick cant take points from out the field. Did you notice the points Peter Casey got from either side of the field, with his first and second touch of the ball, after coming on in an All Ireland Quarter Final or some of the points Declan Hannon, including the two crucial opens against Galway, Diarmuid Byrnes, Darragh O'Donovan and Gearoid Hegarty have got from out the field in big games. You mention Cian Lynch. Cian, great player though he is, has often gone for points from long range but was seldom on target with them. He now more often than not supplies the ball elsewhere, to better placed players, with a more successful return from long range effort.
I think Gatha a game that does not change will wither and die. Back in far off 1897 Tullaroan and Kilfinane played in an All Ireland Final-in Tipp town I think. On the day the KK boys were in for a shock. The Kilfinane lads brought a new tactic to their first final. It was a skill called hook and block. These tactics were effective on that long ago day and Kilfinane won narrowly. No doubt critics of the 'new fandangled idea' reckoned it should be stamped out at once before 'it destroyed the game'. However these things are now some of the great skills of the game.

Oldertourman (Limerick) - Posts: 162 - 27/09/2020 20:49:13    2294374

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Replying To tiobraid:  "I for one think Limerick and Wexford play in a really entertaining way. For 40-50 mins (or longer) against Tipp last year you couldn't not be impressed with Wexford. In a sense it was all out attack. I wasn't a fan of Waterford under Derek McGrath as they were too often forced into potshots, but that's just my opinion. The day of Paul Murphy/Jackie Tyrell/Tommy Walsh booming high balls down the middle is over. While extremely effective when KK were at their peak, I dont necessarily think thats the way hurling should be played either.
There was a huge difference in how the two back lines hurled last Sunday. When a Kildangan back got a ball he almost always played it short to a man who made himself available in a better position, where as John Meagher for example cleared ball long every time he won possession. Kildangan play a brand of hurling I dont think I've seen from a hurling team at club level and its the reason why they won without any standout county players."
Waterford pot shots must have worked because their scoring averages during McGaths's time was up there with everyone else. Not that I was ever a fan of the style but just the hypocrisy of when Waterford used it and others used it.
Also only my opinion but Paul Murphy/Jackie Tyrell/Tommy Walsh team at their peak would beat the pick of the rest of us today irrespective of what style was employed against them.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 28/09/2020 00:57:19    2294420

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Replying To Oldertourman:  "So limerick cant take points from out the field. Did you notice the points Peter Casey got from either side of the field, with his first and second touch of the ball, after coming on in an All Ireland Quarter Final or some of the points Declan Hannon, including the two crucial opens against Galway, Diarmuid Byrnes, Darragh O'Donovan and Gearoid Hegarty have got from out the field in big games. You mention Cian Lynch. Cian, great player though he is, has often gone for points from long range but was seldom on target with them. He now more often than not supplies the ball elsewhere, to better placed players, with a more successful return from long range effort.
I think Gatha a game that does not change will wither and die. Back in far off 1897 Tullaroan and Kilfinane played in an All Ireland Final-in Tipp town I think. On the day the KK boys were in for a shock. The Kilfinane lads brought a new tactic to their first final. It was a skill called hook and block. These tactics were effective on that long ago day and Kilfinane won narrowly. No doubt critics of the 'new fandangled idea' reckoned it should be stamped out at once before 'it destroyed the game'. However these things are now some of the great skills of the game."
Agree to a point. Football has changed and they keep bringing new rules in to get back some of the basic skills. Like I said new is not always better. The game has skills that made these games great. If new tactics take those skills away in my opinion it is not good for the game. Nothing is going to stop change I am fully aware of that but I hope all the skills that made the games great aren't lost to tactics.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 28/09/2020 01:21:27    2294422

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Replying To gatha:  "Agree to a point. Football has changed and they keep bringing new rules in to get back some of the basic skills. Like I said new is not always better. The game has skills that made these games great. If new tactics take those skills away in my opinion it is not good for the game. Nothing is going to stop change I am fully aware of that but I hope all the skills that made the games great aren't lost to tactics."
Any good team on any era who was successful played to their strengths and tried to nullify the opposition's strengths. The great KK team of 10 years ago had great ball winners everywhere and used this on the forward line especially to win 50/50 ball and especially high ball. The KK defence if under pressure could just clear ball at times without looking and the forwards would battle for it and more often than not win it.At the time Cork carried the ball as Joe Deane and Ben O'Connor couldn't win 50/50s. At the moment Limerick have a lot of athletes who can run and carry ball but are also physically big and can battle with any team and send in proper ball to the forwards advantage. Graeme Mulcahy is 1 of the best forwards in the country at the moment but he looked finished 3 years ago in Limerick, why? Because he was expected to win high ball against Tyrell and Murphy and other big fullback and he got abuse in Limerick for it when he failed to. The Limerick game plan now suits him. Look at Ballyhale yesterday they rarely waste a pass or just hit and hope.
Go back and look at games from the 70s and 80s and look at the poor striking and aimless hitting ball away, I don't see much skill in it. The level of skill now days is something we never had with stick passing and scores from all angles not to mention goal keeping which is unbelievable in the last 25 years.

updwell (Limerick) - Posts: 817 - 28/09/2020 17:37:42    2294587

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Replying To updwell:  "Any good team on any era who was successful played to their strengths and tried to nullify the opposition's strengths. The great KK team of 10 years ago had great ball winners everywhere and used this on the forward line especially to win 50/50 ball and especially high ball. The KK defence if under pressure could just clear ball at times without looking and the forwards would battle for it and more often than not win it.At the time Cork carried the ball as Joe Deane and Ben O'Connor couldn't win 50/50s. At the moment Limerick have a lot of athletes who can run and carry ball but are also physically big and can battle with any team and send in proper ball to the forwards advantage. Graeme Mulcahy is 1 of the best forwards in the country at the moment but he looked finished 3 years ago in Limerick, why? Because he was expected to win high ball against Tyrell and Murphy and other big fullback and he got abuse in Limerick for it when he failed to. The Limerick game plan now suits him. Look at Ballyhale yesterday they rarely waste a pass or just hit and hope.
Go back and look at games from the 70s and 80s and look at the poor striking and aimless hitting ball away, I don't see much skill in it. The level of skill now days is something we never had with stick passing and scores from all angles not to mention goal keeping which is unbelievable in the last 25 years."
I agree with most of what you say, updwell, except that we don't see half enough of the stick passing you refer to in your last sentence. Instead we often see a whole series of hand-passes from one end of the field to the other, which means the hurley is temporarily redundant. It's a pity, because most county players are skillful enough to use short stick passing effectively. The other annoying thing is the amount of throwing of the ball which goes undetected. When the poor referee decides to pull for illegal hand-passing he is denounced by people like Donal Og for slowing down the game. As far as I can recall, there's supposed to be "a visible striking action", but we seldom see that.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 542 - 28/09/2020 20:12:00    2294621

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Replying To Canuck:  "Waterford pot shots must have worked because their scoring averages during McGaths's time was up there with everyone else. Not that I was ever a fan of the style but just the hypocrisy of when Waterford used it and others used it.
Also only my opinion but Paul Murphy/Jackie Tyrell/Tommy Walsh team at their peak would beat the pick of the rest of us today irrespective of what style was employed against them."
I actually think youre completely incorrect on that and I'mve always been a big fan of Waterford hurling.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-30747050.html

You didn't read my post correctly I think regarding the KK players. Most teams wouldnt win with the style they played, thats my point. Hence the reason Cody has had to change that.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 28/09/2020 23:06:33    2294663

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Cody has to change his game because he no longer has players who are far better than those being produced in other counties.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 29/09/2020 16:27:59    2294764

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Replying To tiobraid:  "I actually think youre completely incorrect on that and I'mve always been a big fan of Waterford hurling.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-30747050.html

You didn't read my post correctly I think regarding the KK players. Most teams wouldnt win with the style they played, thats my point. Hence the reason Cody has had to change that."
My point is that KK would beat any team of today's with that style because of those players and that team. So I disagree that the long ball from Tyrell and Paul Murphy etc. would not be successful if KK had the calibre player to win those balls as they had then. I agree with StoryNash KK are not producing those players now and the change is necessitated to suit what Cody has got. I am sure if he could clone what he had he would play the same as he did irrespective of what other teams are doing with the short game.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 29/09/2020 20:53:45    2294800

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This is supposed to be a forum about the Tipperary hurling final but the last 20+ posts have had nothing whatsoever to do with that game. If people want to argue about the playing styles of certain counties, maybe they could just start a new forum on that particular topic? Thanks.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 996 - 30/09/2020 04:45:36    2294824

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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu:  "This is supposed to be a forum about the Tipperary hurling final but the last 20+ posts have had nothing whatsoever to do with that game. If people want to argue about the playing styles of certain counties, maybe they could just start a new forum on that particular topic? Thanks."
Yes a new thread should be started but if posts are to be pre moderated like this site does then why do the posts not on topic go up?
Shows forum needs to be modernised!!

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 30/09/2020 10:47:17    2294852

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Yes a new thread should be started but if posts are to be pre moderated like this site does then why do the posts not on topic go up?
Shows forum needs to be modernised!!"
Modernising the forum..... there's a thread in that. ;)

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2040 - 30/09/2020 13:04:56    2294880

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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu:  "This is supposed to be a forum about the Tipperary hurling final but the last 20+ posts have had nothing whatsoever to do with that game. If people want to argue about the playing styles of certain counties, maybe they could just start a new forum on that particular topic? Thanks."
Ya? like the over 2000 posts on the effect of the corona virus on the gaa.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 30/09/2020 15:24:31    2294908

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Replying To midlands:  "I don't think he ever got an extended run, possibly because of unjuries, and there were some defenders on Tipp's 2019 panel who've got numerous opportunities without putting down a marker. I think Tipp's defensive cover is suspect and even at this stage I think Meagher would be close enough to the actual team if he wasn't committed to the football."
FYI Meagher has rejoined the hurling panel this week, hopefully gets a run with no injuries.

PremierGold (Tipperary) - Posts: 121 - 02/10/2020 14:45:50    2295297

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Replying To PremierGold:  "FYI Meagher has rejoined the hurling panel this week, hopefully gets a run with no injuries."
Hopefully they'll try him out this time in his best position - centre half back. With Brendan and Paudie Maher alongside him I think he would do the business, as Ronan Maher is needed in the full back line. Seamus Kennedy, of course, is the man in possession of the number 5 jersey and he won't be easily dislodged, which might mean Brendan Maher moving back to midfield.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 542 - 02/10/2020 17:59:09    2295344

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Saw Tipp county final ! Was very impressed by physicality and skill! Even more impressive was that winners come from a small rural area outside Nenagh

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 947 - 10/10/2020 17:26:42    2296710

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Replying To Rockies:  "Saw Tipp county final ! Was very impressed by physicality and skill! Even more impressive was that winners come from a small rural area outside Nenagh"
Theyve bigger numbers than most in north tipp and the parish isnt that small.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 10/10/2020 18:06:27    2296716

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Theyve bigger numbers than most in north tipp and the parish isnt that small."
Was all the more noteworthy that Kiladangan won for first time ever! Made up for losing final previous year! My own club, Blackrock won the Cork county with no first 15 inter county players, beating Glen Rovers who had 3!!

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 947 - 10/10/2020 18:51:08    2296720

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