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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Trying to schedule league finals and Provincial finals and keeping the flow into the All Ireland is the tricky piece.

It'd probably require there to be no league finals."
Do you dislike "doubling up" Prov KO ties as league ties?

My liking for it is based on reducing total game workload, while retaining all competitions.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3085 - 29/01/2025 15:08:31    2588373

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Replying To omahant:  "Do you dislike "doubling up" Prov KO ties as league ties?

My liking for it is based on reducing total game workload, while retaining all competitions."
Limerick v Clare in the Munster hurling quarter final and League final on 25 Oct 2020 was the moment in the spotlight for your double up preference.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1025/1173814-limerick-0-36-clare-1-23/
It hasn't appeared on any of the championship proposals given consideration. Doubling didn't gain any traction for support.
I was in favour of semi-finals for 2nd v 3rd in the McDonagh Cup. It went forward for consideration. When McDonagh counties declined the offer of the final moving to the All Ireland semi final day, along with winners only being promoted, the semi final suggestion was taken off the table.
Some suggestions get voted through e.g. the McDonagh winner determining the province with 6 teams.
Doubling up didn't gain traction. There isn't much point in flogging a preferred format that had an opportunity and didn't gain support.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8533 - 29/01/2025 16:08:54    2588382

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Replying To omahant:  "Do you dislike "doubling up" Prov KO ties as league ties?

My liking for it is based on reducing total game workload, while retaining all competitions."
I wouldn't have any issue myself with them. I think they have advantages in terms of retaining the Provincials but maintaining a balanced schedule for all.

I think unfortunately people would probably see them as overcomplicated, not to say that they are but I just think it'd be a bit of an alien concept for people. There isn't really anything like it in our regional sporting landscape.

It exists in the NBA, which wouldn't exactly have mass widespread appeal over here.

There are probably other ways that National League plus Provincial championships could be 2 pathways to an All Ireland which could improve the competitions over the current system.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4399 - 29/01/2025 16:39:18    2588392

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As I mentioned before, all my ideas are not based on what I think is 'politically' feasible - but more akin to what I would implement if I was 'a dictator'.

One could approach these discussions either way - it seems you are saying my approach is futile, so stop wasting energy :)
- ok, you have a point !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3085 - 29/01/2025 18:03:25    2588403

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I wouldn't have any issue myself with them. I think they have advantages in terms of retaining the Provincials but maintaining a balanced schedule for all.

I think unfortunately people would probably see them as overcomplicated, not to say that they are but I just think it'd be a bit of an alien concept for people. There isn't really anything like it in our regional sporting landscape.

It exists in the NBA, which wouldn't exactly have mass widespread appeal over here.

There are probably other ways that National League plus Provincial championships could be 2 pathways to an All Ireland which could improve the competitions over the current system."
"Alien concept" until it isn't - e g. 2-pts arc; 3 up/ 3 back; dissent 50m etc; or would you have expected a Swiss System (a la Shara) Champions League ?

"Your regional sporting landscape" - I'd argue URC double counting of 'national regional' Shield competitions is a good example (6-match subset of 18-match URC league schedule).

A lesser example = Calcutta Cup, within Triple Crown, within Six Nations Rugby.

My AILC is radical for sure - but more than FRC rules?
I don't think so.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3085 - 29/01/2025 18:20:31    2588406

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Replying To omahant:  "As I mentioned before, all my ideas are not based on what I think is 'politically' feasible - but more akin to what I would implement if I was 'a dictator'.

One could approach these discussions either way - it seems you are saying my approach is futile, so stop wasting energy :)
- ok, you have a point !"
Was in response to:

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8454 - 29/01/2025 16:08:54 2588382

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3085 - 29/01/2025 19:11:06    2588412

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Replying To omahant:  "As I mentioned before, all my ideas are not based on what I think is 'politically' feasible - but more akin to what I would implement if I was 'a dictator'.

One could approach these discussions either way - it seems you are saying my approach is futile, so stop wasting energy :)
- ok, you have a point !"
I wasn't saying that really at all.

I was giving a realistic appraisal of your suggestion.

I think there's a lot to be said for doubling up games.

An issue with having provincials included in the All Ireland is the imbalance of the quality and the schedule that they create and the dead weeks that they create for teams.

If people were to take an open minded approach to doubling up of games it probably would give potential to have an exciting championship.

Realistically I don't think people would be that open minded about it.

Additionally there is also a lot to be said for something more traditional. There are good reasons why the Provincial championships and the National Leagues (albeit the format has varied but mostly its been 4 sections of 8 in some arrangement) have stood the test of time.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4399 - 30/01/2025 05:02:29    2588450

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Replying To omahant:  "As I mentioned before, all my ideas are not based on what I think is 'politically' feasible - but more akin to what I would implement if I was 'a dictator'.

One could approach these discussions either way - it seems you are saying my approach is futile, so stop wasting energy :)
- ok, you have a point !"
That's fine that you want to share an idea you would implement if you were a dictator! The reality though is that 25 October 2020 was the moment for your double up in the spotlight. The split season was influenced by the COVID season. Noone was looking to retain the double up.
It's pointless for me to suggest that the McDonagh should have a semi-final for 2nd v 3rd when it was considered and taken off the table.
Colm O'Rourke, Eamonn Fitzmaurice and Michael Murphy have spoken in favour of flipping league after provincial championship. Others have spoken in favour of league and provincial championship in parallel. These are valid active discussions.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8533 - 30/01/2025 06:27:35    2588451

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@Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4386 - 30/01/2025 05:02:29

Lines crossed - my post was in response to legendz - I initially forgot to indicate it.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3085 - 30/01/2025 14:01:15    2588492

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Replying To legendzxix:  "That's fine that you want to share an idea you would implement if you were a dictator! The reality though is that 25 October 2020 was the moment for your double up in the spotlight. The split season was influenced by the COVID season. Noone was looking to retain the double up.
It's pointless for me to suggest that the McDonagh should have a semi-final for 2nd v 3rd when it was considered and taken off the table.
Colm O'Rourke, Eamonn Fitzmaurice and Michael Murphy have spoken in favour of flipping league after provincial championship. Others have spoken in favour of league and provincial championship in parallel. These are valid active discussions."
Yes indeed - COVID and empty stadiums under a spotlight and no interest in doubling up as everyone was fed up with life generally.

I prefer to see your 'McD Cup 2nd v 3rd' than you muzzled !

League/Provs, Flip or Parallel? - I do a bit of both in my AILC = SFs/Finals during league phase to preserve prestige, Prelims/QFs out of the way early.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3085 - 30/01/2025 14:08:43    2588494

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There is one important ingredient missing from the Football Championship and that is relegation[and of course promotion]. In order for there to be promotion and relegation there has to be Tiers. Football is an outlier in this regard in the G.A.A inter county scene. Hurling has 5 tiers. Ladies Football 3 tiers and camoige 5 tiers .
Football has all teams in one tier at start of season and then as the Provincial Championships progresses teams are gradually knocked out of A.I.C and fall one by one[until 16 are reached] into the B Championship [Tailteann Cup] which guarantees the winner a place in the following years A.I.C 16 for which there are either one or two chances of qualifying for in the following season anyways. It is not the same as starting the season in a lower tier and the sole focus of the season being to win your tier and move up.
There is no doubt that Football would benefit from a tiered structure as do the 3 above mentioned organizations. 3 tiers would be ideal. There are hundreds of inter county footballers who would never have a hope of ever winning a Senior A.I.C but would be in with a chance of winning a lower tier All Ireland medal .

edu (Mayo) - Posts: 89 - 30/01/2025 22:05:30    2588552

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@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 78 - 30/01/2025 22:05:30

My AILC starts with a two-tier league and ending with a three-tier AIC.

Only 'League 1' teams are eligible for Sam; teams in both league tiers could win my middle-grade AIC Shield, with 4 Shield PQF winners earning or retaining League 1 status for the following year; and 'League 2' middle 8 playing for my 3rd grade AIC (Plate, or Tailteann Cup).
All teams contest their own Prov SFCs as well,but with no Sam berth guarantee (must finish in a League 1 top 8 table).
It's ambitious but I think it works.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3085 - 31/01/2025 04:05:23    2588564

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Replying To omahant:  "@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 78 - 30/01/2025 22:05:30

My AILC starts with a two-tier league and ending with a three-tier AIC.

Only 'League 1' teams are eligible for Sam; teams in both league tiers could win my middle-grade AIC Shield, with 4 Shield PQF winners earning or retaining League 1 status for the following year; and 'League 2' middle 8 playing for my 3rd grade AIC (Plate, or Tailteann Cup).
All teams contest their own Prov SFCs as well,but with no Sam berth guarantee (must finish in a League 1 top 8 table).
It's ambitious but I think it works."
You just can't have a competition where Provincial championships form a part of the All Ireland but a team could win their Province and have no shot at the All Ireland.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4399 - 31/01/2025 12:53:33    2588627

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Replying To Whammo86:  "You just can't have a competition where Provincial championships form a part of the All Ireland but a team could win their Province and have no shot at the All Ireland."
I treat the Provs as "directly unlinked" to the AIC, but "indirectly linked" via awarding match pts that aids AIC qualification.

I deem it a fair compromise, especially in light of Prov imbalance. This imbalance is neutralised via the swapping around of inter-Prov opponents in the league phase, a phase with a balanced, mixed-quality match schedule initially based on seeded pots (similar to Champions League).

Perhaps I'm trying to accommodate too much, short of abandoning the Provs, which I am incorporating to continue their long tradition.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3085 - 31/01/2025 14:37:51    2588640

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Provincial councils are making provincial championships less relevant by not utilising league seeding. Provincial councils are failing to cement provincial championships after league. Calls for league after provincial championship are only going to grow.
For continuity in the current format: league providing seeding for provincial championship and league qualifiers for non provincial finalists would bring a continuity of league to provincial championship to All Ireland championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8533 - 01/02/2025 01:19:28    2588724

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A very easy sensible format.

You could see All Ireland club played in February. (Maybe even facilities Leinster club football finishing in January)

Start of March knockout Provincials over 5 weekends no seeding.

Week 6 All Ireland Playoff round.

Week 7-16 All Ireland group phases (2 tiers of 2 groups of 8)

Week 17-20 All Ireland knockout rounds. (All Ireland final coming a touch sooner into mid July)

Club championship starts. I think there should be an arrangement that every club player should be guaranteed a minimum of 7 matches that are linked to their club championship. Either started league games in counties that have traditionally used that sort of format or group championship games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4399 - 01/02/2025 12:56:13    2588754

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Fewer games, more jeopardy proposed for Sam Maguire:
https://www.gaa.ie/article/fewer-games-more-jeopardy-proposed-for-sam-maguire
Going back to the format going forward to Congress, it just seems blatantly flawed if their isn't some incentive for winning the province. At the very least winning provincial winners avoiding each other in Round 2A.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8533 - 01/02/2025 13:35:35    2588759

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Provincial councils are making provincial championships less relevant by not utilising league seeding. Provincial councils are failing to cement provincial championships after league. Calls for league after provincial championship are only going to grow.
For continuity in the current format: league providing seeding for provincial championship and league qualifiers for non provincial finalists would bring a continuity of league to provincial championship to All Ireland championship."
A logical progression like that makes a lot of sense.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3085 - 01/02/2025 16:17:12    2588771

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Replying To Whammo86:  "A very easy sensible format.

You could see All Ireland club played in February. (Maybe even facilities Leinster club football finishing in January)

Start of March knockout Provincials over 5 weekends no seeding.

Week 6 All Ireland Playoff round.

Week 7-16 All Ireland group phases (2 tiers of 2 groups of 8)

Week 17-20 All Ireland knockout rounds. (All Ireland final coming a touch sooner into mid July)

Club championship starts. I think there should be an arrangement that every club player should be guaranteed a minimum of 7 matches that are linked to their club championship. Either started league games in counties that have traditionally used that sort of format or group championship games."
Who plays in Week 6?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3085 - 01/02/2025 16:17:56    2588772

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Replying To omahant:  "Who plays in Week 6?"
So after the previous season 13 teams from tier 1 and 3 from tier 2 are provisionally qualified.

Any previously unqualified Provincial champions will earn a direct spot.

Any previously unqualified provincial finalists get a playoff spot.

There will be as many playoff games as needed to get the field back down to 16, with provisionally qualified teams meeting one another or a Provincial finalists.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4399 - 01/02/2025 16:46:30    2588773

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