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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think it's better for counties like ours getting more games around our level.

Overall I think it's worse though.

Years ago when they were talking about tiered championship I always just thought a better solution was to take the league out of February and March."
Meant to post this here rather than Donegal thread.

Having won ulster and the fantastic buzz and joy it brought to the county I wouldn't want to do away with ulster championship. It's a realistic target where as the all ireland is a little more aspirational.

Though if you were targeting an ireland you'd stick the under 20s in ulster and target the group stage and that's not right. Donegal got a much better draw last year than this year. Two weeks between every game and hardest game at home. If donegal had a full panel last year they could have really rattled derry at home.
Before the group stages last year we'd got relegated with one win and a draw in the league and poor exit against down.

This year we get promoted, win a very tough ulster. We get the two weeks break which is fine but then a week later it's a 6 hour bus journey to Cork on a friday for a team who have a two week break to prime for you. Not alone are you not rewarded but you're punished for winning the ulster championship.

I don't know what the prenty structure is but in this round robin competition the gap between games has to at least the same break for all teams. So if that means all provincial finals on the weekend then grand.

And also don't really see the need to treat provincial winners the same. Reward the provincial winners of the best overall standard of team with a better draw. Say best two provinces winners get two home games. That best province could easily be based on the average league a team is in.

Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 780 - 09/06/2024 12:57:49    2550298

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think it's better for counties like ours getting more games around our level.

Overall I think it's worse though.

Years ago when they were talking about tiered championship I always just thought a better solution was to take the league out of February and March."
The provincial tiered system is more or less working ok in hurling. Kerry don't have any complaints after missing out on the McD final. Though Dublin and Kerry are dominating their provinces, a provincial tiered system in football might be the way to go.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8299 - 09/06/2024 13:17:34    2550300

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The provincial tiered system is more or less working ok in hurling. Kerry don't have any complaints after missing out on the McD final. Though Dublin and Kerry are dominating their provinces, a provincial tiered system in football might be the way to go."
The hurling championship works because it's tiered and the field is split in 2.

I strongly believe that the provincial element is a weaker part of it and it could actually be modified to be a better competition if run on a purely All Ireland basis.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 09/06/2024 13:41:29    2550304

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Replying To Ulsterchamps_32:  "Meant to post this here rather than Donegal thread.

Having won ulster and the fantastic buzz and joy it brought to the county I wouldn't want to do away with ulster championship. It's a realistic target where as the all ireland is a little more aspirational.

Though if you were targeting an ireland you'd stick the under 20s in ulster and target the group stage and that's not right. Donegal got a much better draw last year than this year. Two weeks between every game and hardest game at home. If donegal had a full panel last year they could have really rattled derry at home.
Before the group stages last year we'd got relegated with one win and a draw in the league and poor exit against down.

This year we get promoted, win a very tough ulster. We get the two weeks break which is fine but then a week later it's a 6 hour bus journey to Cork on a friday for a team who have a two week break to prime for you. Not alone are you not rewarded but you're punished for winning the ulster championship.

I don't know what the prenty structure is but in this round robin competition the gap between games has to at least the same break for all teams. So if that means all provincial finals on the weekend then grand.

And also don't really see the need to treat provincial winners the same. Reward the provincial winners of the best overall standard of team with a better draw. Say best two provinces winners get two home games. That best province could easily be based on the average league a team is in."
I think to do that you would want to have Provincials played in Parallel with the league.

It's kind of possible but it'd also mean that the Tailteann Cup can't start ahead of the Sam Maguire.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 09/06/2024 13:44:41    2550306

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Replying To Ulsterchamps_32:  "Meant to post this here rather than Donegal thread.

Having won ulster and the fantastic buzz and joy it brought to the county I wouldn't want to do away with ulster championship. It's a realistic target where as the all ireland is a little more aspirational.

Though if you were targeting an ireland you'd stick the under 20s in ulster and target the group stage and that's not right. Donegal got a much better draw last year than this year. Two weeks between every game and hardest game at home. If donegal had a full panel last year they could have really rattled derry at home.
Before the group stages last year we'd got relegated with one win and a draw in the league and poor exit against down.

This year we get promoted, win a very tough ulster. We get the two weeks break which is fine but then a week later it's a 6 hour bus journey to Cork on a friday for a team who have a two week break to prime for you. Not alone are you not rewarded but you're punished for winning the ulster championship.

I don't know what the prenty structure is but in this round robin competition the gap between games has to at least the same break for all teams. So if that means all provincial finals on the weekend then grand.

And also don't really see the need to treat provincial winners the same. Reward the provincial winners of the best overall standard of team with a better draw. Say best two provinces winners get two home games. That best province could easily be based on the average league a team is in."
My solution is to award match pts for winning Prov Champp games (like hurling) - so Ulster Champ earns 6 or 8 pts.

Then have the Kerrys & Dublins play those Ulster opponents too as part of a national "regular season" schedule - while the Donegals play the Meaths and Limericks to make the overall race for Sam balanced and fair.

More specifically....

In football, I suggest 12 matches for both 16-team AILC Tiers 1 & 2 - modelled on rugby's URC 'four groups of four' 18-match schedule, less the six intra-group ties - with all Provincial SFC 'intra-tier/inter-group' results incorporated in the 12-match set (similar to the six Triple Crown ties being a subset of the 15 Six Nations ties in Rugby Union).

Upon conclusion of 'early-season' Provincial SFC QFs, AILC groups could be drawn, each formed with one team from each of four seeding pots, and with no group having both teams from any Provincial Preliminary Rd, QF, SF or Final tie (as 'intra-group' teams are avoided). Provincial SFs & Finals could be scheduled for mid and late season, respectively, to preserve their traditional prestige.

After the 12-match regular season, the Tier 1 'top 8 of 16' from a combined table, advance to an Aussie AFL-style "AIC Series" (top 4 to 'double chance' Preliminary SFs, '2nd 4' to KO Preliminary QFs). Provincial Champions outside the 'top 8' advance to a Tier 2 or 3 AI KO instead depending on league table position.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2900 - 09/06/2024 17:35:38    2550374

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The provincial tiered system is more or less working ok in hurling. Kerry don't have any complaints after missing out on the McD final. Though Dublin and Kerry are dominating their provinces, a provincial tiered system in football might be the way to go."
Yes, I agree "more or less" - but as much I LOVE the Muns SHC, there is an "intensity imbalance" with Lein.

My solution is....

In hurling, in lieu of the league schedule, the Provincial groups could play all 'crossover ties' (5v6) instead, and along with the Provincial Championship results, complete an 11-team, 10-match round robin. The 'top 6 of 11' and two Provincial Champions advance to the AI KO QFs, with the latter likely earning byes for advancing twice (Provincial Finalists are still based on '4 or 5' intra-group, round-robin subset results only, no change). Similarly, lower-tier league schedules could instead have "McDonagh v Ring" as well as "Rackard v Meagher" pairings for fixture variety and to bridge standards towards three tiers.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2900 - 09/06/2024 17:45:45    2550375

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The hurling championship works because it's tiered and the field is split in 2.

I strongly believe that the provincial element is a weaker part of it and it could actually be modified to be a better competition if run on a purely All Ireland basis."
When you look at the crowds attending the Munster hurling championship, the GAA wouldn't be getting rid of that format any time soon. Two hurling groups of six on an All-Ireland basis would be more balanced but if it is not bringing crowds with it, it is not of championship quality.
Back to football, the weak point of the football championship is three teams advancing from the groups. It should be two only. The GAA should add jeopardy into the group stage first before throwing the baby out with the bath water.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8299 - 09/06/2024 18:02:11    2550378

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Replying To legendzxix:  "When you look at the crowds attending the Munster hurling championship, the GAA wouldn't be getting rid of that format any time soon. Two hurling groups of six on an All-Ireland basis would be more balanced but if it is not bringing crowds with it, it is not of championship quality.
Back to football, the weak point of the football championship is three teams advancing from the groups. It should be two only. The GAA should add jeopardy into the group stage first before throwing the baby out with the bath water."
Instead of 'best 2 of 4 from each group', we could have the 'best 8 of 16 from all groups' - a team placed 3rd in one group could displace one placed 2nd in another for enhanced jeopardy.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2900 - 10/06/2024 04:07:31    2550455

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Replying To legendzxix:  "When you look at the crowds attending the Munster hurling championship, the GAA wouldn't be getting rid of that format any time soon. Two hurling groups of six on an All-Ireland basis would be more balanced but if it is not bringing crowds with it, it is not of championship quality.
Back to football, the weak point of the football championship is three teams advancing from the groups. It should be two only. The GAA should add jeopardy into the group stage first before throwing the baby out with the bath water."
They had two previously I think, and it led to a load of dead rubber games on the last day. I know its harsh on some teams, but I think the only way to make it ultra competitive and exiting is to further reduce the teams competing for Sam Maguire to 12 with four groups of 3. Top two come out. Quarter Finalists are guaranteed to be in the top 12 the following year, with the other four places up for grabs via a one match play off, seeded based on where you finish in the league. Scrap all provincials.
Example of how this year would have looked.
Dublin, Kerry, Derry, Mayo, Tyrone, Cork, Monaghan, Armagh guaranteed top 12 as quartar finalists in 2023.
(Galway, Roscommon, Donegal, Cavan) versus (Meath, Louth, Fermanagh, Kildare) open draw play off for four spots as that is the order they finished in 2024 league.
Division three and four league teams compete for Tailteann Cup.
I think this format would also make the league really competitive, and be fairer for Northern teams who are battled and bruised after Ulster compared to Dublin and Kerry.
Remember, Derry were division 4 not long ago, so if you are good enough you will get up through the tables.

hopballref (Galway) - Posts: 417 - 10/06/2024 08:46:49    2550466

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Replying To legendzxix:  "When you look at the crowds attending the Munster hurling championship, the GAA wouldn't be getting rid of that format any time soon. Two hurling groups of six on an All-Ireland basis would be more balanced but if it is not bringing crowds with it, it is not of championship quality.
Back to football, the weak point of the football championship is three teams advancing from the groups. It should be two only. The GAA should add jeopardy into the group stage first before throwing the baby out with the bath water."
I feel you're right there.

The other point I'd add when looking at the hurling structure - in Munster hurling the longest journey you'd need to make for a match would be from Waterford to Clare. And with 2 home and 2 relatively local away games you can really get behind your team.

In football you have teams travelling the full length of the country for what is often a foregone conclusion. Even the neutral venues have significant travel time involved. Take the Cork V Tyrone game this weekend in Tullamore - probably 2 1/2 hours for both - the winners go through and the losers also go through but with another more important game next week. Would this be the same if the losers could possibly go out finishing 3rd?

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 10/06/2024 10:30:09    2550488

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Replying To brianb:  "I feel you're right there.

The other point I'd add when looking at the hurling structure - in Munster hurling the longest journey you'd need to make for a match would be from Waterford to Clare. And with 2 home and 2 relatively local away games you can really get behind your team.

In football you have teams travelling the full length of the country for what is often a foregone conclusion. Even the neutral venues have significant travel time involved. Take the Cork V Tyrone game this weekend in Tullamore - probably 2 1/2 hours for both - the winners go through and the losers also go through but with another more important game next week. Would this be the same if the losers could possibly go out finishing 3rd?"
In relation to the MSHC it's the quality of the product that is the real selling point. There is very little between the teams competing and the entertainment level is high. I think the average attendance over 11 games this season was 29k. It would be higher but Clare and Waterford don't have the capacity.
Football, in the earlier rounds, just doesn't have the same quality product on offer. The round robin format is a problem. It needs to be reduced to 12. The 8 provincial finalists and the next 4 from the league. Tier two would also be 12( next 12) and tier 3 would be 8 or 9. 4 groups of 3 with 1 home and 1 away games each. Top 2 to quarters.
In addition, as a limerick man, I would like to see the Munster Shield introduced for Senior. It works well at minor and u20. I know it would be problematic logistically but every effort should be made. A similar effort should be made in other provinces.
Finally, the game itself needs help. I know jim gavin is heading a committee looking into this but I fear these committees. They often make things worse. Football has improved, at highest level, from a few years ago. It still needs help across the board though imo. I wouldn't introduce rules that make it harder to ref( like counting players or handpasses). I would tweak 2 playing rules. 1. Allow the keeper to receive the ball back from a kickout. Kickouts are restarts. Why make them more difficult. Why make GK a less attractive position to play. Remember these rules affect all levels of game. I'd tidy up forward mark. Either allow it for clean catch in D area only or inside 20m line only.
The other change I'd trial is 13 a side Football. It's much harder to set up a blanket defence with 2 players less to work with. The ref doesn't have to ref it either. Allow more subs( with less substitution slots) to ensure participants stay same. I saw a minor game recently at 13 a side and it was a cracking spectacle. It was full of running and scores. Great entertainment

Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 19 - 10/06/2024 11:35:53    2550518

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Replying To Tadhg2020:  "In relation to the MSHC it's the quality of the product that is the real selling point. There is very little between the teams competing and the entertainment level is high. I think the average attendance over 11 games this season was 29k. It would be higher but Clare and Waterford don't have the capacity.
Football, in the earlier rounds, just doesn't have the same quality product on offer. The round robin format is a problem. It needs to be reduced to 12. The 8 provincial finalists and the next 4 from the league. Tier two would also be 12( next 12) and tier 3 would be 8 or 9. 4 groups of 3 with 1 home and 1 away games each. Top 2 to quarters.
In addition, as a limerick man, I would like to see the Munster Shield introduced for Senior. It works well at minor and u20. I know it would be problematic logistically but every effort should be made. A similar effort should be made in other provinces.
Finally, the game itself needs help. I know jim gavin is heading a committee looking into this but I fear these committees. They often make things worse. Football has improved, at highest level, from a few years ago. It still needs help across the board though imo. I wouldn't introduce rules that make it harder to ref( like counting players or handpasses). I would tweak 2 playing rules. 1. Allow the keeper to receive the ball back from a kickout. Kickouts are restarts. Why make them more difficult. Why make GK a less attractive position to play. Remember these rules affect all levels of game. I'd tidy up forward mark. Either allow it for clean catch in D area only or inside 20m line only.
The other change I'd trial is 13 a side Football. It's much harder to set up a blanket defence with 2 players less to work with. The ref doesn't have to ref it either. Allow more subs( with less substitution slots) to ensure participants stay same. I saw a minor game recently at 13 a side and it was a cracking spectacle. It was full of running and scores. Great entertainment"
If the forward mark remains, I'd prefer the catch to be above the receiver's head, and preferably, with a leap/both feet off the ground.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2900 - 10/06/2024 16:02:10    2550613

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Replying To omahant:  "If the forward mark remains, I'd prefer the catch to be above the receiver's head, and preferably, with a leap/both feet off the ground."
God give me strength…. imagine the confusion and controversy that would cause with the sort of referees we have at present…!

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3035 - 10/06/2024 16:07:58    2550615

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Replying To omahant:  "If the forward mark remains, I'd prefer the catch to be above the receiver's head, and preferably, with a leap/both feet off the ground."
Well in fairness it would be easier refereed than the present one.

ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 390 - 10/06/2024 17:29:05    2550651

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ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP (2 groups of 4)
Group A: Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan and Cavan.
Group B: Donegal, Armagh, Cavan and Down.
Top 2 into semi-finals.
LEINSTER CHAMPIONSHIPS (2 groups of 4)
Group A: Dublin, Meath, Westmeath and Laois.
Group B: Louth, Kildare, Offaly and Wicklow.
Top 2 into semi-finals.
MUNSTER CHAMPIONSHIP (1 group of 4)
Kerry, Cork, Clare and Limerick.
Top 2 into final.
CONNACHT CHAMPIONSHIP (1 group of 4)
Galway, Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo.
Top 2 into final.
TAILTEANN CUP (2 regional groups of 4)
Connacht/Munster Group: Leitrim, Tipperary, London and Waterford.
Top 2 into regional final. Winner promoted to their province.
Leinster/Ulster Group: Antrim, Wexford, Longford and Carlow.
Top 2 into regional final. Winner promoted to their province.
Two regional winners into Tailteann Cup final, curtain raiser to Leinster final. Tailteann Cup winner into preliminary quarter-finals, with home advantage.
ALL-IRELAND SERIES:
PRELIMINARY ROUND:
4 Leinster and Ulster losing semi-finalists, subject to avoidance of repeat pairings.
PRELIMINARY QUARTER-FINALS:
4 provincial runners-up v Tailteann winner, New York and 2 Preliminary Round winners. Provincial runners-up could travel to New York on a 4 year provincial cycle. Tailteann winners with home advantage. 2 Preliminary Round winners away from home.
QUARTER-FINALS:
4 provincial winners v 4 Pre-QF winners.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8299 - 10/06/2024 18:40:59    2550666

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Replying To ORIELMAN85:  "Well in fairness it would be easier refereed than the present one."
I think this was the original spirit if the rule - high fielding - so I say, let's write it in for clarity if that's the intent. Although to be honest, perhaps it's best to scrap the attacking mark.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2900 - 10/06/2024 20:28:21    2550681

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Replying To ORIELMAN85:  "Well in fairness it would be easier refereed than the present one."
Are you completely mad or what…. How could a ref be sure both feet were off the ground… at least at present he only has to see that the forward gathers the ball before it hits the ground and calls a mark… The only change that needs to be made to it is "get rid of the forward mark " … Another silly GAA rule change that has ruined the game..

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3035 - 10/06/2024 23:43:29    2550704

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Replying To omahant:  "I think this was the original spirit if the rule - high fielding - so I say, let's write it in for clarity if that's the intent. Although to be honest, perhaps it's best to scrap the attacking mark."
Would choose to scrap it, but you are correct on the original spirit of the rule and it would be much easier for referees to call.

ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 390 - 11/06/2024 00:28:47    2550710

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Replying To omahant:  "I think this was the original spirit if the rule - high fielding - so I say, let's write it in for clarity if that's the intent. Although to be honest, perhaps it's best to scrap the attacking mark."
Why scrap it?
It's one of the only reasons teams keep any player inside the 45 when they don't have the ball.
Imo this is why football struggles as a spectacle. Football people just don't want any change. There is so much wrong with the game as a spectacle atm and "football people" fixate on the forward mark as it it's at the root of the games problems. Get rid of it and we regress back to where we were before it waa introduced. Teams are only starting to use it correctly. It's not their fault that it's open to abuse. That's also not a reason to get rid of it. It gives the attacker another option in what's normally a very congested space. What's wrong with that....

Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 19 - 11/06/2024 17:20:28    2550857

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Replying To Tadhg2020:  "Why scrap it?
It's one of the only reasons teams keep any player inside the 45 when they don't have the ball.
Imo this is why football struggles as a spectacle. Football people just don't want any change. There is so much wrong with the game as a spectacle atm and "football people" fixate on the forward mark as it it's at the root of the games problems. Get rid of it and we regress back to where we were before it waa introduced. Teams are only starting to use it correctly. It's not their fault that it's open to abuse. That's also not a reason to get rid of it. It gives the attacker another option in what's normally a very congested space. What's wrong with that...."
The number of times "get rid of the advanced mark" is trotted out in any discussion of improving football as if it was the cause of the many boring periods in games.
I can't recall any players calling for its abolition ?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1967 - 11/06/2024 20:00:16    2550877

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