I asked this in another thread but want to give the discussion of any possible return of the Tommy Murphy Cup a thread of it's own.

The key for a return of the Tommy Murphy Cup is that it provides a route back into championship. This is simply listening to managers of counties who participated in that competition. They are in a far better position than any of us go speak about it. A second important point is that counties don't feel victimised for being put in there. It should be possible that any county could be in the competition following a bad year or two.

A championship option of many:
There should be an agreed seeding across each of the 4 provinces for their respective first round. In Munster and Connaught that would equate to provincial finalists being given a bye from the first round. In Leinster and Ulster it would equate to semi-finalists being given a bye from the first round. The following rounds by all means can be open and at the discretion of the respective provinces.

The 8 round 1 losers should enter the Tommy Murphy Cup - with the finalists earning a route back into championship.

After round 1 in each province, the breakdown of teams remaining in each province will be 4 in Munster, 4 in Connaught, 8 in Ulster and 8 in Leinster.
Qualifier Round 1 (12 teams) - 2 Munster semi-finalists, 2 Connaught semi-finalists, 4 Ulster Quarter-finalists and 4 Leinster quarter-finalists.
Qualifier Round 2 (10 teams) - 6 Q1 winners, 2 Ulster semi-finalists and 2 Leinster semi-finalists.
Qualifier Round 3 (6 teams) - 5 Q2 winners and Tommy Murphy Cup runner-up.
Qualifier Round 4 (8 teams) - 4 provincial runners-up, Tommy Murphy Cup winner and 3 Q3 winners

Advantages:
* Second tier competition - finalists earning a route back into the Championship.
* The Tommy Murphy Cup effectively becomes a second tier provincial championship of sorts. Provincial championships see winners enter quarter-finals and runners-up enter Q4. The Tommy Murphy Cup would be seeing it's finalists enter a round earlier; winner at Q4 and runner-up at Q3.
* The provinces with more teams and an extra provincial round as a result will see their losing semi-finalists continue to avoid Qualifier Round 1. There has to be a compromise in all negotiations. This would seem a fair compromise that Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists enter the qualifiers a round later than Munster and Connaught semi-finalists.

Note: On my original suggestion in the other thread I made reference for a Round of 16. It's a valid suggestion my opinion. In the interest of highlighting how the Tommy Murphy Cup could be incorporated within the current structure, I've left it out for now.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8975 - 10/05/2015 14:36:32    1722031

If your doing something - do it right

I suspect that in the next few years the GAA will be forced to put a correct Football season in place. Not another hack to suit provincial councils

Why, players from the majority of counties which have no hope of winning anything come the Championship will soon loose the motivation to give up so much for a return of so little.

Also, the likes of sky will soon question why the championship only gets going so late on.

If the GAA authorities don't do the right thing then they have failed their primary purpose of existence which is to serve the game in the best posible way - something they probably need to be reminded of on a regular basis

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1477 - 10/05/2015 15:59:08    1722063

To Legendzxix -
I don"t have many issues with your idea, EXCDPT, the Cork/Kerry (note, Cork 1st :) Muns Final - with current AI QF and 4th Rd allocation.
My recent 'Double 16' idea, has only 2 going thru front door (more work for Cork/Kerry), 5 thru the back(levels field), 1 TMC champ thru side door.
My older idea '24/7', had a Munsacht playoff, so I had 3 thru front door 5 thru back, with TMC champ only in last Qual Rd (treating prov champs differently
seemed to have pain here, so perhaps 'Double 16' is better ?).

By ths way, I see common overlap in your ideas - 8 TMC teams above on a 3rd chance (I have these going to Qual Rd 2, and Rd 1 winners to a stronger TMC QFs).
Also, you align Muns/ Conn SF and Lein/ Uls QF losers - 12 teams entering same Qual Rd (as my '24/7').

Your 'Super 16' idea is easy to understand (8 Qual Rd 2 winners, 8 Prov Finalists) - although I prefer giving the weakest more action (3rd chance).
Why not 'christian' your ideas, so they can be compared easily ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3311 - 10/05/2015 17:20:52    1722097

They should try to improve the standard of the so-called lesser counties rather than send them into a second-tier competition where their standards won't improve.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8151 - 10/05/2015 18:12:23    1722122

The GAA moves very slowly omahant. You will not see too many changes. They dabbled with the Tommy Murphy Cup and reducing the number of qualifier rounds by one. That was reverted then when division 4 counties who agreed to it, like turkeys voting for Christmas, realised what they had voted for.

These format discussions are a never ending debate with not much change likely to happen. There's no harm in a discussion about it however. I think small changes within the current structures is one place to look. You will not see provincial champions being treated different. There is however a case for Ulster and Leinster losing semi-finalists entering the qualifiers round later than their Munster and Connaught counterparts.

The TMC idea I suggested runs smoothly within current structures without being a ground breaking revolution. Quarter-finals of the TMC can be played on the same weekends as Ulster and Leinster quarter-finals. TMC semi-finals can be played on the same weekend as Qualifier Round 1. TMC final can be played on the same weekend as Qualifer Round 2. You've the runner-up then in Q3 and the winner in Q4.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8975 - 10/05/2015 18:19:15    1722123

GreenandRed
County: Mayo
They should try to improve the standard of the so-called lesser counties rather than send them into a second-tier competition where their standards won't improve.

Counties have it within themselves in fairness to improve. The point of a second tier competition with a route back to championship is that they'll get a few games at their level. It's 8 round 1 losers that I'm suggesting enter the second tier competition. A win in the first round would see teams avoid it in the first place and advance to a provincial quarter-final or semi-final depending on their province.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8975 - 10/05/2015 18:28:52    1722125

man alive do ye not get seriously tired from wanting everything in the gaa changed
you would only have it changed and then start a thread for it to be revrsed I could imagine
seriously I watched 20 minutes of chelsea v liverpool at my dinner today
and in that space of time i seen both sides do a sean cavanagh style rugby tackle
yet you wont hear soccer posters whinging all day about rules need changing as a yellow isnt enough
you wont hear the media decrying the state of soccer and how cynical the game has become

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 10/05/2015 18:50:28    1722134

A few games "at their level" ???? What good are games at their level exactly ? What counties have improved out of their level and stayed at a better level ? Have Fermanagh, Sligo, wexford or Limerick improved their level after doing well in the backdoor system?


I posted this here before. Scrap the existing league and get 4 divisions with two teams from each of the existing divisions in each and get counties playing against a higher standard of team to improve their standard, They'll get some hammerings but they'll get better if the desire is there. And split the leagues up the next season, etc. All the current league does is keep the strong counties strong and keep the weaker counties down.

Your idea is not a bad one. But more should be done to let counties play against stronger opposition before the championship. Otherwise your Tommy Murphy winner will get a rude awakening in the quarter final.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8151 - 10/05/2015 18:54:07    1722137

Hill, you can't be saying the "soccer" word on here ! It's well for you that you have the Skysports and all. Some of us have to rely on the BBC for the highlights later on.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8151 - 10/05/2015 18:59:56    1722143

Most of the "2nd tier" counties are spending a king's ransom preparing their teams with all sorts of fitness/core/gym/nutrition regimes etc so they can compete with the top counties. Maybe they'd be better-served by focusing more on developing the skill levels of the players? Probably wouldn't cost as much anyway!

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 10/05/2015 19:12:10    1722153

The Tommy Murphy Cup was a waist of time and money.....There is no incentive to win that type of competition at intercounty level. Its the sort of competition that can work at club level within a county but not at intercounty level because all it really says is your best of a very bad lot!

The only thing that should be looked at as a second option is how some counties maybe allowed to enter their senior team after exiting the senior championship into the Junior all Ireland championship e.g if your County is in Div 3 or 4 of the NFL only for example. This could work because very rarely would any county in Div 3 or 4 make it to the last 16 of the Senior championship.

herewe38 (Louth) - Posts: 506 - 10/05/2015 19:12:38    1722155

I think it's a good idea. Would like to see that q4 match played in Croker.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1488 - 10/05/2015 19:22:59    1722170

GreenandRed
County: Mayo
Posts: 1485

1722143
Hill, you can't be saying the "soccer" word on here ! It's well for you that you have the Skysports and all. Some of us have to rely on the BBC for the highlights later on.

haha dont have sky sports
was at relatives house and they have the dodgy box that runs online set up
so was techinally watching it on nbc channell live from america haha

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 10/05/2015 19:31:47    1722178

Herewe38,

"The Tommy Murphy Cup was a waist of time and money.....There is no incentive to win that type of competition at intercounty level. Its the sort of competition that can work at club level within a county but not at intercounty level because all it really says is your best of a very bad lot!"

Seems to work ok in hurling for counties in the Ring/Rackard/Meagher Cups...

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 10/05/2015 19:32:58    1722181

@ GreenandRed - Well I'm saying the same about the Kerry hurlers playing at their level. I go to hurling games as well. I think Ring finalists should be allowed into the qualifiers. I'm being consistent enough about both codes.

I understand what you are saying. I'm taking into account what managers of Tommy Murphy Cup counties have said in the past. They've said it needed a route back to championship. I'm simply highlighting a way that this could be made possible. I'm talking about the lowest 8. When these counties make progression you'd imagine they'll be winning their provincial first round. Someone will have to be losing in their place though naturally enough.

@ hill16no1man - I don't want everything changed really. There is room for some minor changes within the current structure to have a more fairer championship. It's all I'm suggesting. No more and no less.

@ herewe38 - senior counties should not be dropping into the Junior championship. Once you are senior, you have to stay on that road. If the Tommy Murphy finalists are earning a way back into the championship, it is providing an incentive to win that type of competition.

@ tirawleybaron - You are right as well. Most Q4 matches tend to be in Croke Park these days. The TMC winner will be guaranteed a Croke Park Q4 match in that case.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8975 - 10/05/2015 19:43:36    1722187

legend
there is about 20 threads running here on championship structures
and other topics purely looking for change or whinging about state of this or that
we are the only sport in the world that seems to have people so into it yet whinging about it constantly

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 10/05/2015 19:53:09    1722193

@ hill16no1man - you are fully right. It's a never ending debate. There must be something wrong somewhere for this to be the case. There was a discussion for ages in rugby as well. 10 Pro 12 teams walking into Europe's supposedly premier competition was daft. I was saying for ages the H Cup should reduce to 20. They've done it. The Pro 12 is a better competition for it. Teams are battling for:
Top 2 - home semi-final.
Top 4 - semi-final spots.
Top 6 - Champions Cup qualification.
7th team - some play-off spot.
Even the two bottom Italian clubs are battling for 1 champions cup spot from their country.

This never ending debate is going to go on and on. Managers, players, media and supporters all have their say about it. There'll be many more articles over the summer. Like the Pro 12/Champions Cup, it'll be great to see the GAA adopt a revamp of the structure that would by and large end most of the endless discussion.

This discussion here about the TMC is a fair enough one to raise. TMC managers said the competition needed a route back to championship. Can the GAA provide such a platform for these counties? What I've outlined suggests they can within current structures. Munster and Connaught semi-finalists entering the qualifiers a round earlier than their Ulster and Leinster counterparts would also bring fairness to the championship:
Round 1 losers - into the Tommy Murphy Cup.
Round 2 losers (Munster and Connaught semi-finalists. Leinster and Ulster quarter-finalists) - into Qualifier Round 1.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8975 - 10/05/2015 20:22:37    1722216

the pro12 is the exact same as the national league
and actually has teams playing far more second string line ups than the national league in gaa does
yet gets more positive media than the national league
so people believe what the media tells them
when the facts clearly show otherwise
so for me posters continue to post threads on what they hear from newspapers and tv reports
instead of what they actually see themselves or believe themselves

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 10/05/2015 20:36:11    1722226

The pro 12 was struggling. Low supporter turnout similar to the national league. Rugby focus was on the H cup, similar to the championship. Recent modifications to qualification for the champions cup has raised the competitiveness of the Pro 12 and made it a better competition. It's also has become more established now as well.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8975 - 10/05/2015 20:44:06    1722230

Proposing for Tommy Murphy cup winners re-enter the senior championship is not practical unless intercounty players abandon playing club football and are paid at least semi-pro neither of which is goin to happen in the foreseeable future

Keeper Longford, the hurling competititons are working to an extent mainly because its like a foreign game in some of those counties whilst every county plays football unless kilkenny.

Remember tommy murphy cup was good in theory as it was seen to help weaker counties, but nobody wants to be winner of a bad lot (Div 3/4 teams) Let them compete against Junior intercounty teams of the strong counties and win it.

herewe38 (Louth) - Posts: 506 - 10/05/2015 21:05:56    1722250