Oh its land you're talking about Treaty_Exile, I see;o)

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 02/08/2013 15:22:23    1450831

"Where are the hurling areas in Donegal, Westmeath, Meath, Derry etc?"

In Donegal Burt & Setanta are the main hurling clubs & are known primarily for hurling. I think Na Magha in Derry city is hurling only but not as strong as dual clubs like Slaughtneil, Dungiven, Lavey or Banagher. Westmeeath/Meath hurling area is from Mullingar/Castlepollard east almost to Navan. Roscommon hurling is based around Athleague.

Another theory about hurling's demographics is that there was such debauchery around games on a Sunday (drinking, fighting, cursing, gambling) that the Catholic clergy sought to stamp it out in many areas. In some areas, however, the local clergy tried to work with the congregation & promoted a more "tempered" atmosphere at matches.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4105 - 02/08/2013 15:24:22    1450833

I have heard a theory which I find the most plausible given to me by a man long since dead. Prior to the forming of the gaa matches were played between parishes with indiscriminate amounts of players on either side with aim to get the ball/sliothar into the neighboring parish and keep it out of your own. Pitches would be decided differently depending on outline of landscape. In hilly areas the pitches would be shorter and in low lying plains the pitches would be longer. Hence football became more popular in the hilly areas as the ball travels shorter distance and easier to find if it goes out of sight of the participants and hurling in places with longer flatter pitches.

bugsie (Leitrim) - Posts: 199 - 02/08/2013 15:36:41    1450851

Interesting stuff all right. The hurling pocket in westmeath is the part of the county north of mullingar. This is where 7 of the 8 senior clubs are based. The one exception being castletown geoghan. Castlepollard, collinstown, delvin, raharney, clonkill, crokedwood, along with mullingar side oliver plunketts all very much hurling territory. South of mullingar is football area in general with a few intermediate hurling teams scattered here and there. The hurling area also stretches into meath over as far as trim with the likes of kildalkey etc.

overdabar (Westmeath) - Posts: 256 - 02/08/2013 17:06:53    1450963

The hilly areas for football theory doesnt hold up in Westmeath as in North Westmeath where hurling is dominant the terrain is very hilly whereas south of Mullingar the land is generally a lot flatter.

Jack_Sparrow (Westmeath) - Posts: 1080 - 02/08/2013 17:46:45    1450996

I think it's proven that it's not 100% true. The Glens of Antrim would be very rough terrain. But for a lot of the area in the hurling stronghold, I think it holds up.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 02/08/2013 19:06:35    1451056

First of all that map/link was from 1997 or so and a lot has happened since that book was published. Secondlt there is a whole sea change in Dublin and also in neighbouring Meath and Kildare even if on a smaller scale. But the author could hardly have predicted or forsseen this explosion.
Would the map if redrawn look a wee bit different now? I think so with a lot more playing the game.

And just a different observation on geography why is there a near complete absence of hurling amongst the "true" Gaels in the Gaeltacht?

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4968 - 02/08/2013 19:42:04    1451075

arock
County: Dublin
Posts: 1634

1451075
And just a different observation on geography why is there a near complete absence of hurling amongst the "true" Gaels in the Gaeltacht?
I wondered that too. I think even the Waterford Gaeltacht is a football area!

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 02/08/2013 19:48:37    1451082

Its the Normans Folks

The Normans are often referred to as the Old (Catholic) English, not the landed English (Protestant) gentry who played hurling, they wouldn't even entertain that idea until WB Yeats and Countess Markievicz came along.

The Normans on the other hand had earlier adopted Irish culture which included the playing of hurling. Probably because the idea of Nationalism wasn't as strong in the early Middle Ages.

The areas of Ireland where hurling is strong were strongholds of the Normans. ie Kilkenny, the SE, East Galway and Clare, Tip East Cork etc and these are the places were hurling is strongest today. The Glens were also strongholds of the Normans, Glenarm and Carrickfergus castles are both Norman in origin. Normans were also present in East Down and the Cooley peninsula. The plantation no doubt affects were the hurling playing population lived in the period since then and since that population would have been overwhelmingly Catholic they would not have been the first choice tenants for the best land so would have had to move to the poorer land.

The North and West of Ireland were strongholds of the Gaelic aristocracy during the Norman period and the Norman influence was not as great. They never truly went through a period of Norman influence going straight from the Gaelic order to the English order. Most of the traditional hurling strongholds had a period of Norman influence.

Also I would also like to add that I am not saying that the Normans invented the sport far from it. But there are responsible for maintaining and organising it during this period and doubtless were huge players in the evolution of the sport that you see today

Thats my 2p worth anyway

omaghjoe (Tyrone) - Posts: 1191 - 02/08/2013 20:27:33    1451113

I read in the history of Castlepollard Hurling Club (Westmeath) that a man called Patrick Corcoran from the Tipperary/Offaly border moved to that area in 1899 and brought with him a hurley. Most of the locals hadnt seen a hurley before which seems strange because there are a number of clubs in the region now. He set up a hurling club which quickly grew with the establishment of the Gaelic League which encouraged native Irish culture.This hurling area seems to be incredibly recent but its hard to get concrete information on it.

Jack_Sparrow (Westmeath) - Posts: 1080 - 02/08/2013 21:17:36    1451163

Would the supply of ash have anything to do with the spread of hurling counties? You need the basics after all. And would it not have something to do also with the practice of the landed gentry in the 18th century to promote hurling matches between their respective tenants (no doubt a bloodbath for the entertainment of the genetlemen who would settle the wager afterwards over a glass of port). These matches might have only played in certain parts of the country.

KeyserSoze (Cork) - Posts: 363 - 02/08/2013 21:38:53    1451185

02/08/2013 19:48:37
Treaty_Exile
County: Limerick
Posts: 144

1451082
arock
County: Dublin
Posts: 1634

1451075
And just a different observation on geography why is there a near complete absence of hurling amongst the "true" Gaels in the Gaeltacht?
I wondered that too. I think even the Waterford Gaeltacht is a football area!

An Rinn went up to senior about 3 years ago; I caught the commentary by chance on RnaG, think they won playoff the following year to stay senior but they may have gone down since. So I suppose having a senior club in Port Láirge is the height of the Gaeltacht's achievement in the sport.

Pretty sure Maigh Cuilinn are senior both football and hurling but I'd say it's as much a fíorGhaeltacht as Finchley.

Two lads from Corca Dhuibhne won U-21 B AIs against An Mhí in 2011 (I think)- they played with Kilmoyley since U-16 IIRC. Some commuting and some commitment (from parents too!). I hope they're still playing, but it's a fierce pity we don't have hurling clubs in our bigger towns like Daingean Uí Chúis so they wouldn't be obliged to do so. It always surprises me Emmetts in Lios Tuathail don't have even a junior hurling option as it's the main sport in all the parishes west and southwest of the town.

Maybe someone might be better informed on these musings?

an tseabhac (Kerry) - Posts: 441 - 02/08/2013 21:56:08    1451203

. We're surely talking about only a few parishes?

Well we only have 6 senior clubs, all based in the mid to south of the county, as the map suggests.


I always went along with the theory that there were two forms of hurling, north and south. The GAA went with the southern form when codifying it and hence it suited these counties better and they remained stronger and the game more popular.

St.John (Carlow) - Posts: 202 - 02/08/2013 21:56:37    1451204

As someone said here it is true that the Catholic Church banned hurling in some areas in 1800s . There is evidence of this in the Derry Journal from that period to back this up. Hurling or commons (camanacht ) was very popular around Derry City and was frowned upon and often banned by church. From the formation of gaa up to partition gaa was strongest in city until the church again left the boot in. They associated the gaa with militant republicanism in the city and basically took the gaa out and replaced it with soccer and in 1928 Derry City was formed. This began a period of dominance of soccer within the city which lasts until the present. Na Magha formed in 1982 after 20-30 year absence of hurling and opened their pitch after many years of struggle 3 years ago. They are the guys carrying on in a hard environment and in an area which would ironically have been one of the older hurling areas of Ulster

christy sting (Derry) - Posts: 262 - 05/08/2013 15:27:37    1453347

St. John is absolutely right here. The reason for the current demographics in hurling is because there were 2 different types of hurling . Winter hurling was played in what are now the predominantly football areas and summer hurling was played in the areas where hurling is now strong.
The reason for the divide was I think down to the land and the areas that had the good land was more conductive to summer hurling. When Cusack formed the GAA and standardised the game they went with the summer hurling model. They also introduced a new game in the form of Gaelic football which virtually displaced hurling in the areas that played the winter hurling variety. Some of the winter hurling strongholds adopted the new hurling model which explains its presence in areas such as the glens of Antrim.

Does anybody know what winter hurling was like or how it differed from summer hurling?

kerryhound (Kerry) - Posts: 37 - 06/08/2013 11:28:48    1454065

Was there not two games - Camann and Hurling and both played using different sticks. I seem to remember reading something about how the games clashed and teams up North like Burt were dominant at one form and ended up playing opposition who played the other.

geoff (Tyrone) - Posts: 377 - 06/08/2013 11:41:20    1454081

Donegal -Burt
Down - the Ards pinnsula - no football here
Tyrone - Carrickmore
Armagh - Keady - football has all but died
Derry - Lavey/Dungiven
The Glens and mid Antrim - Loughguille, Ballycastle and Cushendall - little or no football

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - Posts: 1691 - 06/08/2013 11:43:13    1454085

Winter hurling is closely related to shinty, I believe.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4105 - 06/08/2013 11:52:35    1454097

02/08/2013 21:56:08
an tseabhac
County: Kerry
Posts: 169


Two lads from Corca Dhuibhne won U-21 B AIs against An Mhí in 2011 (I think)- they played with Kilmoyley since U-16 IIRC. Some commuting and some commitment (from parents too!).

Those two players were Darragh O'Sullivan and Paul Geaney, who came on against Cavan on sunday. O'Sullivan played u21 football for Kerry aswell last year.

john3seven (Kerry) - Posts: 15 - 06/08/2013 12:23:08    1454132

In Limerick I know that the River maigue was generally a cut off point from city/east which would be a hurling area with football pockets and the west which is a football mainly but with strong hurling pockets. Big town like askeaton, rathkeale and foynes are generally football with also abbeyfeale and newcastlewest. There is hurling in the west too and loads of junior clubs and some senior but the Maigue is most definitely a cut off point between the hurling area of northeast limerick and the west with the South being almost exclusively hurling

Fishermantom (Limerick) - Posts: 569 - 06/08/2013 15:22:09    1454386