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Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
Group A
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
Group B
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3705 - 27/05/2026 11:09:52
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
Group A
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
Group B
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?" I think that's the best suggestion I've seen in a while.
Same amount of games and a proper chance for Joe Mac teams to develop
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4536 - 27/05/2026 11:23:21
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
Group A
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
Group B
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?" Could also make it 5 in the group ? Add in Westmeath and Antrim or Kerry .... more development
Sliotar99 (Galway) - Posts: 20 - 27/05/2026 11:28:25
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
Group A
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
Group B
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?" Would the two losing semi-finalist play each other for the third All-Ireland place?
Also, I like to see the four group teams play home and away against each other. This would give each team a minimum of 6 games. The down side to this is amount of time available to play Leinster Championship. Which would see the two Leinster finalists play 8 games before the AI Championship started. But, with the will and a bit of imaginative thinking it could be done.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2898 - 27/05/2026 11:33:01
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
Group A
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
Group B
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?" To be honest Id be more interested in having more hurling games in the high summer, or at least the early part of it. As it is we only have 7 more intercounty hurling games left in total, and its only coming the end of May. And factoring in the need for less yoyoing too. So 12 teams in Liam McCarthy.
Id go-
-Jan-preseason comps, as the counties will arrange challenge games anyway, may as well have supporters at them and make a few bob.
-End of Jan to 3rd week of March- League exactly as is but no finals. Top of the table wins the League. 1 break weekend after 3 rounds.
-Knockout Leinster, Munster and Ulster Championship. QFs in Leinster and Munster. 5 or 6 in Munster, depending if Kerry enter. 8 in Leinster, Dublin, Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford, Kildare, Laois, Carlow, Westmeath. 3 or 4 in Ulster. Run in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd weekends in April. After a 2 week break following the League.
- 12 team Liam McCarthy after a 2 week gap following the League. The 11 current teams plus this years Joe Mac winners. 2 groups of 6. 5 games each spread out over 7 weekends from the start of May to 3rd week of June. Top 2 in each group into an AISF. Bottom team in each group into a relegation final. 2 week gap to AISFs, 2 week gap to the final. No relegation in the lower tiers to bring the numbers back up to existing levels in the Joe Mac downwards. Lower tier competitions will be running concurrently with the Liam McCarthy.
Benefits-
-Biggest one is way more intercounty hurling games in June. Good for the promotion of the game in all counties.
-The whole lot will fit in the existing intercounty window.
-More different counties hurling later in the year.
-More meaningful games at Provincial level and more games altogether at AI level.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19824 - 27/05/2026 11:36:54
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
Group A
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
Group B
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?" I like the idea as more teams get to compete at the top. You would have to have one game at home , one game away and one game at a neutral venue for this format to work but I like the idea.
Afinestick96 (Wexford) - Posts: 1096 - 27/05/2026 11:42:20
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Thought about this over the weekend and think something has to happen to promote hurling outside the traditional counties.
But I fear this dilutes the competition too much and the 3 coming out of Munster will be way better primed than those coming out of Leinster. We're far enough behind the standard of hurling in Munster as it is.
I think the solution has to involve more than the Leinster counties.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 2074 - 27/05/2026 11:52:07
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wouldn't be in favour of this at all. reducing the amount of games for teams and adding more blowouts, after the best leisnter championship we've had in years. The first time we've had a Leinster championship overshadow Munster completely on the last day. The groups would be fairly boring with 2 out of 4 getting out and likely one game of real significance in the example groups you've set out
Unless another team proves they have seperated from the rest of the Joe Mcdonagh in the way Offaly have, then there should be no call for a change. A lot of this seems to have come from the novelty of Kildare. In reality they've lost all 5 games and would likely lose all 5 next year if they were to stay up. They were certainly impressive agaisnt us but then conceded 3-17 in the second half. We've gotten much better battles from Carlow over the years and I'll be delighted if they make it back up
You should have to earn your place in the Liam Mccarthy cup. Rather than parachute teams into leinster, the absolute priority needs to be on the McDonagh Cup. It's always agreed that hurlign folk consider it a fantastic competition, but there is zero interest from casuals. I don't have an answer to that unfortunately but the ideal for hurling is the current system but with a little more love for the McDonagh cup
Overdahill (Galway) - Posts: 124 - 27/05/2026 12:01:22
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Leave well enough alone. Lowering the standard in Leinster is not going to improve a Leinster team's chance of being ready to step up against Munster teams.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4332 - 27/05/2026 12:01:50
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Happy to see such discussion on this already anyway, as didn't know how the thread would fly. Some good points raised above. And just to point out that I wouldn't necessarily be pushing for this structure myself - was just looking for thoughts on the idea.
All I'll add here is in reply to Cockney Cat, that I didn't factor how you'd determine the third team to progress to the All-Ireland stages. Suppose a play-off between the two losing semi-finalists would be the most obvious. Could possibly be played as a curtain-raiser to the final.
FWIW, we do have a novel solution to a similar situation for Division 2 downwards in our Club Leagues here in Wexford, where top two in each group progress to semi-finals, but just three teams promoted:
- First plays first in one semi-final. Both are promoted no matter what the outcome of this match.
- Second plays second in the other semi-final, and this semi-final doubles up as a promotion play-off for the third spot.
Don't think that'd wash here, though. Far more at stake in provincial and All-Ireland inter-county competition than there is in whether or not you move from say Div. 4 to Div. 3 in a secondary club competition played in the first part of the year!
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3705 - 27/05/2026 13:06:33
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
Group A
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
Group B
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?" I think you could build an extension of this format if you wanted to have more games
Let's denote the winner of Group 1 as 1A, 2nd in Group 1 as 2A and so on, similar logic for Group 2
After the group stages are completed
Semi-Finals
1A at home to 2B
1B at home to 2A
Winners go to LF, losers go to qualifiers
Relegation SFs
3A at home to 4B
3B at home to 4A
Winners go to qualifiers, losers go to relegation final
4 teams in the qualifiers: two losing semi-finalists and two winning relegation semi-finalists
Two losing semi-finalists play two winning relegation semi-finalists in R1 of the qualifiers
The two winners of that play in R2 of the qualifiers and the winner then goes to the AIQF (Just like 3rd in Leinster currently does)
ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 1325 - 27/05/2026 13:12:51
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@ElGranSenor - solves the issue of two teams only getting three games, and two others only getting the fourth game that nobody wants (i.e. the relegation final).
But potentially creates a new issue of lack of real jeopardy in the group stages, if everybody still ends up with a pathway to the All-Ireland stages anyway.
Hypothetically, albeit it highly (extremely!) unlikely - you could lose three games and come bottom of the group, but still come through the qualifiers into the All-Ireland series, and even end up as All-Ireland champions.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3705 - 27/05/2026 13:45:19
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
Group A
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
Group B
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?" I don't think it makes any sense at all. Neil acknowledged that it's not a format that will produce a more competitive championship. If I saw a competition format that would enhance the level of hurling in Kildare, Antrim, Laois, Kerry, Derry, Down etc etc to match the level of the top 7-9 hurling counties, then I would vote for that competition format. I haven't seen such a format though, in the past 60 years anyway.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4742 - 27/05/2026 14:05:25
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I'd go along with the proposal as set out in opening post but with a couple of changes:
1. Top team in each group straight into Leinster final. This makes it very competitive at the top of each group for the top teams. No taking it handy early or being able to afford one defeat as one slip and you're very likely to miss out on a Leinster final. I think that compensates for the fact that by extending the teams to 8 you are diluting the standard overall, but as pointed out it gives real hope of survival to likes of CW, LS, KE, WH or AM or whoever.
2. Second and third teams in each group to play off for the last remaining Leinster spot in the All Ireland. So runner up in A plays third in B and vice versa. Two winners play in what would be a preliminary All Ireland quarter final to decide the third Leinster team.
As set out, the bottom team in each group play off for relegation. That's still a meaningful game.
Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1856 - 27/05/2026 14:21:42
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