National Forum

Counties Sweating On All-Ireland Football Qualification

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To legendzxix:  "Sligo or Leitrim should not be qualifying ahead of Cavan or Fermanagh unless they win Connacht. All provinces have a different structure but 1 champion. Reward provincial winners and Tailteann winners. Everyone else can qualify through the league."
I've already addressed that with seeding of draws to make sure you earn the right for a final.

However if a county has not qualified for a final, or the next best 7 on League, then they don't deserve it. Final appearance is perfectly fine to reward here as Championship wins should always rank more than some team having a mediocre Division 2 campaign

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 29/03/2023 16:56:36    2467650

Link

Replying To Jack L:  "If you were only awarding the provincial winners, you might as well disband the Leinster and Munster championship as there will only be one winner.

A team might have a poor performance in the league and drop out of the AI series by scoring averages for example. They might turn the season around and are a championship team and perhaps qualify for a provincial final but not rewarded. Unfair in my opinion.

Either award provincial finalists or get rid of provincial series which I'm sure will go down well with the respective councils."
Counties outside of provincial winners have always had to go through qualifiers. The league is now the qualification route.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 29/03/2023 17:33:38    2467659

Link

Replying To Jack L:  "If you were only awarding the provincial winners, you might as well disband the Leinster and Munster championship as there will only be one winner.

A team might have a poor performance in the league and drop out of the AI series by scoring averages for example. They might turn the season around and are a championship team and perhaps qualify for a provincial final but not rewarded. Unfair in my opinion.

Either award provincial finalists or get rid of provincial series which I'm sure will go down well with the respective councils."
Awarding the provincial winners plus 12 is mixing the old with the new.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2014 - 29/03/2023 18:02:36    2467666

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Sligo or Leitrim should not be qualifying ahead of Cavan or Fermanagh unless they win Connacht. All provinces have a different structure but 1 champion. Reward provincial winners and Tailteann winners. Everyone else can qualify through the league."
Where to draw the line is so arbitrary though - we say Champs only, mostly because Sligo/Leitrim don't belong - but in 2023 Kerry will do so much less as Champ than Armagh will have done if they are a losing Finalist.
Should 4 Champs playoff instead with only two unbeaten Champs getting in - the line can really be drawn anywhere - bottom line for sure, the Prov foundation is broken.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 29/03/2023 19:36:22    2467686

Link

Replying To Jack L:  "If you were only awarding the provincial winners, you might as well disband the Leinster and Munster championship as there will only be one winner.

A team might have a poor performance in the league and drop out of the AI series by scoring averages for example. They might turn the season around and are a championship team and perhaps qualify for a provincial final but not rewarded. Unfair in my opinion.

Either award provincial finalists or get rid of provincial series which I'm sure will go down well with the respective councils."
A simple change to the provincial draw would solve all this. Division 1/2 teams kept on the opposite side of the draw preventing the shambles that is Connacht this year. Because the New York/London fixtures are on a rotation basis it makes it difficult, but the winners of the NY and London 1st round games must play one of the DIV 1/2 teams in their next game. Leitrim only lost to Sligo by a point so it is not beyond a possibility they could beat them in the championship. They lost by over 20 points to Galway and Mayo in 2022 and 2021 and it will likely be worse this year if they meet. Then they will have to hit for Killarney the following Sunday where the Cliffords will be waiting. After that it will most likely be the Dubs in Carrick and Tyrone in Croker. Crazy really.

martinjoe (Mayo) - Posts: 499 - 30/03/2023 08:46:47    2467706

Link

Replying To martinjoe:  "A simple change to the provincial draw would solve all this. Division 1/2 teams kept on the opposite side of the draw preventing the shambles that is Connacht this year. Because the New York/London fixtures are on a rotation basis it makes it difficult, but the winners of the NY and London 1st round games must play one of the DIV 1/2 teams in their next game. Leitrim only lost to Sligo by a point so it is not beyond a possibility they could beat them in the championship. They lost by over 20 points to Galway and Mayo in 2022 and 2021 and it will likely be worse this year if they meet. Then they will have to hit for Killarney the following Sunday where the Cliffords will be waiting. After that it will most likely be the Dubs in Carrick and Tyrone in Croker. Crazy really."
It is up to the respective provincial councils how they apply seeding. The general theme expressed here is to move towrds seedings through the league.
I'd expect that provincial councils will veto any change which will diminish their championships.

The scenario which you suggested above with Div 4 teams suffering potential heavy defeats. This can happen in any format. If a Div 4 team won the TC the previous year, they could still suffer heavy defeats as 4th seeds the following year.

At the end of the day, if a Div 4 team qualifies for AI series, they are there on merit (or luck of draw). They worked as hard as all other teams and perhaps reached their goal for the year.

Div 4 teams can suffer heavy defeats as well in the league and TC. They will not improve until playing against higher standard teams

Jack L (None) - Posts: 3099 - 30/03/2023 12:33:48    2467771

Link

Replying To Jack L:  "It is up to the respective provincial councils how they apply seeding. The general theme expressed here is to move towrds seedings through the league.
I'd expect that provincial councils will veto any change which will diminish their championships.

The scenario which you suggested above with Div 4 teams suffering potential heavy defeats. This can happen in any format. If a Div 4 team won the TC the previous year, they could still suffer heavy defeats as 4th seeds the following year.

At the end of the day, if a Div 4 team qualifies for AI series, they are there on merit (or luck of draw). They worked as hard as all other teams and perhaps reached their goal for the year.

Div 4 teams can suffer heavy defeats as well in the league and TC. They will not improve until playing against higher standard teams"
I agree with that - I don't see anything wrong with guaranteeing that at least 2 counties from each province are in the All Ireland championship.

As for teams not knowing what championship they're going to be in. Its been that way before - but for Division 4 teams. Its now that way for all bar the top teams from the NFL.

Teams will be in the 16 on a mix of luck and merited luck (handier draw). Thats the way its always been. In 2019 Meath got to the Super 8s by beating Offaly, Carlow, Laois and Clare. Cork got there by beathing Limerick and Laois. It will be a much fairer test to get to the last 8 now.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 283 - 30/03/2023 13:50:39    2467801

Link

The league has taken over from the qualifiers. There is no reason for provincial councils to be against provincial champions, Tailteann winners and league qualifiers entering the All-Ireland series.
If a county loses a provincial final. They can learn from the experience and win the Tailteann Cup if that is where they are. Westmeath have the respect of most for qualifying as Tailteann winners. Sligo and Leitrim will not have respect for qualifying as provincial finalists. If they won their province to qualify, they would have the respect of most.
Winning a provincial championship to qualify is traditional. To qualify through the league is an evolution of the qualifying structure.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 30/03/2023 17:22:47    2467866

Link

Winners of Leitrim/Sligo will be in the All Ireland series.
As will Westmeath.
If Down make the Ulster final - they will be there as well.
Which would mean, Meath would have to make the Leinster final in order to qualify for the All Ireland series - lucky for them they are on the opposite side of the draw to Dublin.

BlastCalyle (Mayo) - Posts: 206 - 31/03/2023 09:41:12    2467914

Link

Replying To BlastCalyle:  "Winners of Leitrim/Sligo will be in the All Ireland series.
As will Westmeath.
If Down make the Ulster final - they will be there as well.
Which would mean, Meath would have to make the Leinster final in order to qualify for the All Ireland series - lucky for them they are on the opposite side of the draw to Dublin."
All provinces regardless of seeding structure provide one provincial winner. Provincial winners, Tailteann winners and the rest through league qualification is the fairest solution for all.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 31/03/2023 10:00:36    2467921

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "All provinces regardless of seeding structure provide one provincial winner. Provincial winners, Tailteann winners and the rest through league qualification is the fairest solution for all."
My two gripes with your proposal are.
1. The AI series which is the Championship, Only four teams qualify via championship route & the remainder via league and TC. Teams use the league to blood in new players, This is difficult for some of the smaller teams as participation in the AI championship is primarily through the league. Some counties may have players tied up with Club or college commitments in the early rounds of the league. They are under pressure straight away as a few results in February could ruin your chances of competing in the championship (AI series. -Not knocking the TC but every team's ambitions are to compete for SAM.
2. Due to lopsided nature of the provincial championships, the teams participating in AI series are, Dublin, Kerry Connacht and Ulster champions, TC winners. Remainder of place are via league. The 10 other Leinster & five Munster teams have to depend on the league. Most are in Div 4 which rules them out. At least if provincial runner ups were allowed in, this would open the door for them and give them something to aim for.

I know that I am advocating for the so called weaker counties. The TC is there for them. We all seen the delight that it brought to Westmeath last season when they won it.
All through the years every team got the opportunity to compete for SAM when championship commenced. The backdoor give teams a second chance which a lot of teams embraced.
Maybe if the provincial championships were not so lopsided The provincial champions also qualify. OK Ulster &

Jack L (None) - Posts: 3099 - 31/03/2023 11:09:08    2467942

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The league has taken over from the qualifiers. There is no reason for provincial councils to be against provincial champions, Tailteann winners and league qualifiers entering the All-Ireland series.
If a county loses a provincial final. They can learn from the experience and win the Tailteann Cup if that is where they are. Westmeath have the respect of most for qualifying as Tailteann winners. Sligo and Leitrim will not have respect for qualifying as provincial finalists. If they won their province to qualify, they would have the respect of most.
Winning a provincial championship to qualify is traditional. To qualify through the league is an evolution of the qualifying structure."
It's not though. How can you not see the contradiction in your post here? The main qualification route is Championship and reaching the final. Like you yourself have posted this one many times. You can't very well say this repeatedly, and then go and say League is now the qualifiers, and that those losing a final should go to Tailteann. What logic are you using here that someone who does better in the Championship gets rewarded by being downgraded to teh 2nd tier ahead of someone who had a very mediocre League campaign.

You did a LOT of crowing about this last year. So you need to accept that reaching a final in provincial is far more worthy than scraping by in league and in some cases being less worse than other teams who did get relegated. We need to reward Championship form. Like, you'd seriously send Fermanagh down to Tailteann below Meath if they reach a final this year? Come on...

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 31/03/2023 11:23:31    2467944

Link

Replying To Jack L:  "My two gripes with your proposal are.
1. The AI series which is the Championship, Only four teams qualify via championship route & the remainder via league and TC. Teams use the league to blood in new players, This is difficult for some of the smaller teams as participation in the AI championship is primarily through the league. Some counties may have players tied up with Club or college commitments in the early rounds of the league. They are under pressure straight away as a few results in February could ruin your chances of competing in the championship (AI series. -Not knocking the TC but every team's ambitions are to compete for SAM.
2. Due to lopsided nature of the provincial championships, the teams participating in AI series are, Dublin, Kerry Connacht and Ulster champions, TC winners. Remainder of place are via league. The 10 other Leinster & five Munster teams have to depend on the league. Most are in Div 4 which rules them out. At least if provincial runner ups were allowed in, this would open the door for them and give them something to aim for.

I know that I am advocating for the so called weaker counties. The TC is there for them. We all seen the delight that it brought to Westmeath last season when they won it.
All through the years every team got the opportunity to compete for SAM when championship commenced. The backdoor give teams a second chance which a lot of teams embraced.
Maybe if the provincial championships were not so lopsided The provincial champions also qualify. OK Ulster &"
1. All other counties outside of provincial winners have always gone through qualifiers. The league is now the qualifier route.
2. If counties are underperforming in the league, they should not be getting easy access through an unbalanced provincial structure.

If Sligo or Leitrim lose a Connacht final, they would be better off regrouping in the Tailteann and focus on winning that.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 31/03/2023 11:30:50    2467946

Link

Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "It's not though. How can you not see the contradiction in your post here? The main qualification route is Championship and reaching the final. Like you yourself have posted this one many times. You can't very well say this repeatedly, and then go and say League is now the qualifiers, and that those losing a final should go to Tailteann. What logic are you using here that someone who does better in the Championship gets rewarded by being downgraded to teh 2nd tier ahead of someone who had a very mediocre League campaign.

You did a LOT of crowing about this last year. So you need to accept that reaching a final in provincial is far more worthy than scraping by in league and in some cases being less worse than other teams who did get relegated. We need to reward Championship form. Like, you'd seriously send Fermanagh down to Tailteann below Meath if they reach a final this year? Come on..."
You are ignoring that provincial runners-up always entered the qualifiers as well. The league has taken over from qualifiers.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 31/03/2023 11:59:33    2467952

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "1. All other counties outside of provincial winners have always gone through qualifiers. The league is now the qualifier route.
2. If counties are underperforming in the league, they should not be getting easy access through an unbalanced provincial structure.

If Sligo or Leitrim lose a Connacht final, they would be better off regrouping in the Tailteann and focus on winning that."
The Qualifiers are normally played after you compete in the provincial championship not before.
There has to be some merit to reaching a provincial final. I know Kerry folk would not appreciate that.
If you were to follow your logic. A county as I said in an earlier post might be short players at the beginning of the league and could end up relegated to Div 3 on scoring averages. Unlucky. They regroup for the championship and get a good victory or two but lose out in the final. Season defined by first couple of league matches in a congested window.
If Sligo, Leitrim, London or New York reaches a Connacht final this year, it will be on merit. They deserve their chances like Kerry to compete for SAM.

Jack L (None) - Posts: 3099 - 31/03/2023 12:02:57    2467953

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "1. All other counties outside of provincial winners have always gone through qualifiers. The league is now the qualifier route.
2. If counties are underperforming in the league, they should not be getting easy access through an unbalanced provincial structure.

If Sligo or Leitrim lose a Connacht final, they would be better off regrouping in the Tailteann and focus on winning that."
1. The League is still not the main qualifier route. It is only to find the final 7 after the other 9 are set on Championship results.
2. Your way is going to reward teams who underperform in the League over teams who preform in the Championship. How can you not see your contradiction here? A simple solution is to ensure provincials are seeded, so any team coming through will have their work done to get to a final. That's the simple solution to the Connacht issue this year rather than trying to turn 2 competitions into 1.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 31/03/2023 12:11:08    2467957

Link

Replying To Jack L:  "The Qualifiers are normally played after you compete in the provincial championship not before.
There has to be some merit to reaching a provincial final. I know Kerry folk would not appreciate that.
If you were to follow your logic. A county as I said in an earlier post might be short players at the beginning of the league and could end up relegated to Div 3 on scoring averages. Unlucky. They regroup for the championship and get a good victory or two but lose out in the final. Season defined by first couple of league matches in a congested window.
If Sligo, Leitrim, London or New York reaches a Connacht final this year, it will be on merit. They deserve their chances like Kerry to compete for SAM."
I support the Kerry hurlers. The football league is a fair ranking for counties who have not won their provincial championship or Tailteann Cup.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 31/03/2023 12:49:15    2467962

Link

Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "1. The League is still not the main qualifier route. It is only to find the final 7 after the other 9 are set on Championship results.
2. Your way is going to reward teams who underperform in the League over teams who preform in the Championship. How can you not see your contradiction here? A simple solution is to ensure provincials are seeded, so any team coming through will have their work done to get to a final. That's the simple solution to the Connacht issue this year rather than trying to turn 2 competitions into 1."
Sligo or Leitrim making a Connacht final is not better than Cavan and Fermanagh making the Division 3 final. It is an obvious flaw to be ironed out.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 31/03/2023 12:50:41    2467963

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "You are ignoring that provincial runners-up always entered the qualifiers as well. The league has taken over from qualifiers."
There's never a perfect solution. With the league having taken over the qualifiers (and I agree), what incentive is there in 2023 for Armagh to win 3 games to get to an Ulster Final to get the Sam berth they already have via the league?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 31/03/2023 14:04:38    2467990

Link

Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "1. The League is still not the main qualifier route. It is only to find the final 7 after the other 9 are set on Championship results.
2. Your way is going to reward teams who underperform in the League over teams who preform in the Championship. How can you not see your contradiction here? A simple solution is to ensure provincials are seeded, so any team coming through will have their work done to get to a final. That's the simple solution to the Connacht issue this year rather than trying to turn 2 competitions into 1."
You say, 7+9 when I think it's more like 12+2 with two up in the air.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 31/03/2023 14:08:13    2467991

Link