Spot on Wham. There is nothing wrong with a sound, well organised defensive system but ultimately it's scores for and not against that win games. I also believe that there is an over emphasis in Ulster in stopping the opposition than going out and trying to score more than them. Tyrone when they attack in full flow are very effective and capable as they showed against Kerry last year and they have probably given Dublin their closest games over the past few years. Armagh are a case in point, they underachieved massively. For a 6/7 year period they had the best set of forwards in Ireland. McConville. McDonnell, Clarke, Marsden etc but they spent a lot of that era passing backwards and sideways instead of getting quick ball into their brilliant forwards. After their comprehensive defeat to DonegalI Dublin changed and have mastered both defensive and attacking strategies. Tyrone and Donegal will have to rethink theirs also now.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9816 - 16/02/2016 21:38:12    1825977

The discusssion around the blanket defence is becoming increasingly tedious.

Someone pointed out earlier that it isn't brave and is for managers who are afriad to go out an play man for man and may the bets team win.But if every team had that attitude you wouldn't need managers in the first place and go out and play does not happen in any sport unless a team is lucky enough to have a ridiculousy good selection of players to choose from.

Another poster said it protects less talented players which is correct however every single tactical innovation in any sport is their to compensate for potential flaws a team has.Team sport is about the team being greater than the sum of it's parts and being able to compensate by any flaw a group of players may have with team work.

People are complaining about things that are basic aspects of every single team sport.

The truth is that the last 5 or 6 years have proven that the blanket defence is quite an effective tactic and when it is done well it is very hard to beat and probably the best way of beating it is by replicating it.It's also been shown that fans and players don't really like it and it doesn't add to the entertainment value of the game but because of it's effectivness as a tactic it will not go away by itself and at this stage it just needs to be legislated for and ban the tactic.

The GAA have sat on their arses for too long and not changed the rules, until the rules are changed and there is a restriction on the number of players inside the defensive part of the firld the blanket defence will not go away because it works very well.

uibhfhaili1986 (Offaly) - Posts: 1296 - 17/02/2016 08:36:52    1825992

TheMaster and uibhfhaili1986 posts sum up the situation very well for me.

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1428 - 17/02/2016 09:31:01    1826004

Well summed up by previous posters. You need good defensive clever play to beat the top teams, however it takes scores to win matches. I could name a few teams who have good defensive systems (without a sweeper) but the will not win an All-Ireland because they have not enough class forwards- one will not do. On a additional point folk should not confuse a good defensive system with a sweeper system- a good example of a good defensive system which was based on a high work rate with forwards tracking their opponents and sprinting back to defend to retain possession was Tyrone in the All -Ireland against Kerry (which Tyrone won).

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 17/02/2016 09:41:06    1826007

Cross had no presence in the centre of their defence. Castlebar's runners from midfield did serious damage . Tracking and an extra man back in that central position would have sorted that out. Joe's article as usual was overstated .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6178 - 17/02/2016 10:25:36    1826017

Adaptivity and resourcefulness are two human traits to be admired. Otherwise we might still be hunting wild boars with sharpened sticks.
The fact is that McGuinness developed, and some might say perfected the system in 2012. Since then we've seen teams learn and adapt, Dublin probably being the best example. Good players and teams over time will develop counter-strategies to overcome any tactic which is currently en vogue. Nothing to see here if you ask me.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9746 - 17/02/2016 11:01:20    1826027

Lockjaw,

"The fact is that McGuinness developed, and some might say perfected the system in 2012. Since then we've seen teams learn and adapt, Dublin probably being the best example. Good players and teams over time will develop counter-strategies to overcome any tactic which is currently en vogue. Nothing to see here if you ask me."

The fact is that poorer teams are still playing the old defensive system to the detriment of the game as a spectacle. They haven't developed any counter-strategies because they're seemingly content to keep the score down.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 17/02/2016 11:27:27    1826037

Lockjaw- I not so sure that you could say perfected! considering that it was a very basic 'schoolboy error' that lost the match to Kerry in the AI (with kickout)

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 17/02/2016 11:36:50    1826040

The fact is that poorer teams are still playing the old defensive system to the detriment of the game as a spectacle. They haven't developed any counter-strategies because they're seemingly content to keep the score down.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts:2641 - 17/02/2016 11:27:27 1

Aye and when the better teams consistently show that they can beat the blannket system then the porrer teams will have to adjust also.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9746 - 17/02/2016 12:25:16    1826067

Lockjaw- I not so sure that you could say perfected! considering that it was a very basic 'schoolboy error' that lost the match to Kerry in the AI (with kickout)

browncows (Meath) - Posts:835 - 17/02/2016 11:36:50

I would say it was perfected in the second half of the AI semi final against Cork in 2012. We should have beaten them by 10 points that day.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9746 - 17/02/2016 12:26:06    1826068

The secret is to counter the counter

If you have any business winning things you have to be able to adapt and have your team ready

Gavin learned that lesson and he's all the better for it

It's obvious enough when it's going to be deployed

I'd expect more teams in Leinster to continue to adopt this tactic - I called it last year before a ball was kicked

Expect more of the same - Kildare tried it and Westmeath did very well in the first half of the Leinster final with a very defensive setup

Problem being though - they only scored 6 points in the entire game and I think only 3 from play

But it was very competitive for 60% of that game - I'd expect to see more of the same in Leinster Champ 2016

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 17/02/2016 12:52:57    1826077

We're just going through an evolutionary cycle of our sport. Ironically the quality of attacking play is rising as teams need to be more creative, skilful, powerful and clever to break down the defensive systems. I could be wrong but I understand that the average score in inter county matches is rising?

sportsfan14 (USA) - Posts: 281 - 17/02/2016 13:52:17    1826109

The secret is to counter the counter

If you have any business winning things you have to be able to adapt and have your team ready

Gavin learned that lesson and he's all the better for it

It's obvious enough when it's going to be deployed

I'd expect more teams in Leinster to continue to adopt this tactic - I called it last year before a ball was kicked

Expect more of the same - Kildare tried it and Westmeath did very well in the first half of the Leinster final with a very defensive setup

Problem being though - they only scored 6 points in the entire game and I think only 3 from play

But it was very competitive for 60% of that game - I'd expect to see more of the same in Leinster Champ 2016

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts:14828 - 17/02/2016 12:52:57 1826077

It's all about adapting an attacking strategy......the defensive system is the easier system to put in place. Donegal scored 6 points I think against Dublin in 2011 but put in place a defensive system that was very good. They adapted an attacking system a few years later and embarrassed Dublin with a complete performance.....think they ended up scoring 3-14 but could of been more. Teams like Kildare, Meath, Loais etc need to put in a defensive system (which they are doing) and then formulate an attacking plan. However Donegal had a lot of very good players would could implement the plan.....Kildare etc don't have the players at this stage so Dublin will have free reign in Leinster for another few years. The other teams need to look at their underage structures and produce players who know the system inside out from u16.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2093 - 17/02/2016 16:46:23    1826170

"the defensive system is the easier system to put in place"

You've hit the nail on the head, there.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 17/02/2016 17:09:31    1826182

Well said TheFridge. A very common misconception around the time of Donegal's win was that it was totally down to the system. I even heard moronic comments of the like that any team of players could go out and play as defensively as that and win titles. The fact is that you need intelligent and disciplined players to adhere to any system if you want it to work. Otherwise systems aren't worth the paper/whiteboard they're written on.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9746 - 18/02/2016 10:18:51    1826261

This is it. Donegal had the players to implement the system. Many counties trying to play this system don't have the type of players needed.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 18/02/2016 11:58:04    1826302

Ive been at odds with football now for a few years. i used to go to most Antrim games and a lot of other ulster games (tyrone usually) but i haven't been to any county game in about 4 years. i just dont get the same buzz from it. i used to go and enjoy teams going up against each other seeing flair players skinning their man and producing a wonder score. doesn't happen anymore, you dont see a forward giving a man a proper roasting anymore and that intense 1 on 1 battle we used to see. i hate watching players go past a man then either get pulled down or 'bottled up' with nowhere togo before getting blown up for over carrying and this being celebrated like a score. Yeah i understand the game has to move forward and evolve but the entertainment value is gone, the players are all robots who can run and handpass a ball 5 yards. give me a Geoffrey mcGonagle anyday, creativity and a proper footballing brain.

the_watcher (Antrim) - Posts: 128 - 18/02/2016 12:54:50    1826316

Ah come on Lockjaw Donegal's win was completely down to there system how could you say anything else? These same players only a year before took a hammering off Armagh then took Dublin to two points with a completely different system that then won them Sam the following year. No team had ever come across such a system that when the ball was being thrown up Donegal forwards were running back into defence it was unreal. For me it was the 100% the system that won them Sam.

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 18/02/2016 13:14:33    1826324

the_watcher you are focusing on 1 aspect of the game.
Defending is an unbelievable skill. Also when you see games live (not on tv) there is a great element of genius about seeing how teams set up to beat certain teams.

Why would you choose to go 1 v 1 if you know you could lose. Better to try something different.

You say there are no great 1 v 1 match ups anymore but I beg to differ. These do still exist (McGee v O Shea last year was shaping up to be great tussle until Mcgee got injured) but if one players is getting roasted as you call it then why shouldnt the team figure a way to stop it.

Listen if things were to go back the way they were before then I think Donegal would be fine. Murphy and McBrearty 1 v 1 with their markers we would win most games but Donegal had to adapt to beat the Armaghs and Tyrones of this world and now other teams have to adapt to beat both the defensive teams and the Attacking teams.
The thing people forget is that the top teams are great at both and adapt accordingly.

dstuction (Donegal) - Posts: 1209 - 18/02/2016 13:41:35    1826334

Ive been at odds with football now for a few years. i used to go to most Antrim games and a lot of other ulster games (tyrone usually) but i haven't been to any county game in about 4 years. i just dont get the same buzz from it. i used to go and enjoy teams going up against each other seeing flair players skinning their man and producing a wonder score. doesn't happen anymore, you dont see a forward giving a man a proper roasting anymore and that intense 1 on 1 battle we used to see. i hate watching players go past a man then either get pulled down or 'bottled up' with nowhere togo before getting blown up for over carrying and this being celebrated like a score. Yeah i understand the game has to move forward and evolve but the entertainment value is gone, the players are all robots who can run and handpass a ball 5 yards. give me a Geoffrey mcGonagle anyday, creativity and a proper footballing brain.

the_watcher (Antrim) - Posts:111 - 18/02/2016 12:54:50 18

Nostalgia's not what it used to be

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12304 - 18/02/2016 13:45:15    1826336