Well said yewtree.Its healthy to keep an open mind on various matters.We've all had a gpod debate on this topic.Time to put it to bed.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 27/01/2016 21:13:10    1819872

Give it a rest Ros.I remember when we had this debate before you were on my back also.Most people couldn't care less about any county other than their own.I am lucky to be born and bred in a strong GAA county and i also respect every other county and have a keen intetest in all counties results.You dont need to tell me about Leitrim v Roscommon rivalry.I know about every rivalry in the country.Club and intercounty.Your taking me up wrong on this.I want a more equitable and fair system for all.However it happens.That is my main issue.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 27/01/2016 21:38:43    1819876

Give it a rest Ros.I remember when we had this debate before you were on my back also.Most people couldn't care less about any county other than their own.I am lucky to be born and bred in a strong GAA county and i also respect every other county and have a keen intetest in all counties results.You dont need to tell me about Leitrim v Roscommon rivalry.I know about every rivalry in the country.Club and intercounty.Your taking me up wrong on this.I want a more equitable and fair system for all.However it happens.That is my main issue.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts:3242 - 27/01/2016 21:38:43 1819876

cue I know its cold on the moon but that doesnt make me an astrounaut , Ros and only those living and breathing in that area would GET the rivalry he talks about , a fair an equitable system for all even when the all say they dont want it , your coming accross as very Mother Threasa except the poor souls you seem to know best for dont need saving

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 27/01/2016 21:51:24    1819880

It's not a perfect solution and no counties should be forced to amalgamate but everyone who's shooting down Aidan O'Shea (a fair bit of the criticism here has been personalised against him) and this idea should ask themselves two questions
1) Am I happy with the current situation in Football and/or Hurling where only a handful of counties can compete for Sam/Liam?
2) Have I a better idea to even things up?

I wonder in the future could the proposed B championship be used as a stick to 'encourage' counties to amalgamate. "Lads, if we ever want to get into Sam Maguire we're going to have to join up with X" Counties might be begging to amalgamate after a few years in the Tommy Markham II.

Could that even be the long-term idea behind that particular proposal?

Mickmick (Dublin) - Posts: 104 - 28/01/2016 09:41:05    1819901

The thing is damo, many do need saving. Most dubs will want to keep this idea down, because they know that amalgamation of some counties, will also probably mean changes for Dublin, and they don't want to upset their favourable apple cart.

To anyone from say Leitrim or Carlow etc. I would ask, are you comfortable with never having a hope of reaching even a quarter final, ever again? Are you comfortable with being the whipping boys for your neighbours for the rest of your days, where they routinely put out experimental sides against you? Are you happy with never being taken any ways seriously or even considered, while young lads from other counties get sponsorship for everything and anything they need. Surely, you as gaa-people deserve fairer treatment?

It would be interesting to see how 3-4 amalgamated teams from the teams in division 4 would do, something like the Kerry championship operates.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/01/2016 09:57:50    1819907

This is an utterly no win situation. Smaller counties want to be in the bigger competition. They are 100% going to fail. They might win one big game like westmeath did last year v meath or antrim v laois (westmeath were division 2 last year and so were meath btw) and that would be a successful season.

The only thing that I could suggest is perhaps seeding the provinces a bit more favorably so as they are more likely to get to a provincial final. Connaught and munster are cases in example of this. You actually have cork and kerry meeting regularly in munster finals because of seeding. It is denying the small clubs a chance to compete in a final, which is their only chance of a big day really.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3853 - 28/01/2016 10:08:38    1819910

Floating the idea of amalgamation is a non starter, logistically it wouldn't work how can you have players from 2-3 counties training several nights a week in an organised fashion it wouldn't work.

Look at the analogous situation in Rugby, in Ireland the provincial teams did occasionally play together so making them the main teams was not the issue. Look however at Wales were teams who were traditional rivals have been amalgamated (against their wishes in some cases) and I wouldn't say that has made them any stronger. You have situations I have witnessed myself where supporters who live in one region will not support said region because it would mean going to their former sworn enemies stadia as the home team, and that doesn't sit well with people, not the most mature but sure isn't that what sport is about.

Would supporters from Meath be happy going to Mullingar as the home team, my own county struggle to get supporters from anywhere in the county so sending them to Newry or Armagh as the home team again wouldn't work. Its a nice sound bite and an opportunity to float the idea of splitting other counties up but this one doesn't have any legs I'm afraid.

Spending caps and sorting out the master schedule are the only things which will have tangible benefits to the championships.

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 28/01/2016 10:25:41    1819917

Damo,why make fun of the idea and compare me to Mother Teresa?One thing im not,is disingenuous.I have been talking about this proposal for nearly 10 years to at various times to anyone who will listen(mostly my Dad).I have said on here many times i dont believe it will happen and if it ever does it wil have to be down to the players and counties themselves.Nobody should be forced into doing anything.
You laugh the fact that the likes of Ros and victorious and others are dead set against the idea.Why though?Everyone is entitled to their opinion.Aidan O Shea;a top footballer from a strong county thinks there's merit to it.A retired All Ireland winning Offaly footballer came out last year and said he believes its about time Offaly and Laois amalgamated;he knows how far Offaly have fallen and cant see them coming back.Are we the only three in the country who think this?
I've already said on the Dublin page that i rarely attend Leinster championship games anymore where the only matter up for debate is whether Dublin will cover the handicap spread.Plenty of my pals dont go either.A few Dublin posters admitted as much also.Who enjoys regular missmatches and inferior teams getting hammered out the gate?No doubt some of the weaker football counties will get their annual hammering this year in the Provincial championship,or the early stages of the qualifiers and people will be up-in-arms again about how unfair it is.At least i'm trying to come up with ideas to try and make it fairer.I'm not saying i'm right,but i'm not burying my head in the sand either.I'll take the flack over this amalgamation idea.I have done before.Some think i'm stupid.Others think i'm losing the plot over this.Fair enough,it comes with the territory,but maybe 50 years down the line if we're all lucky enough to still be breathing i(and others like me)may be seen as a visionary.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 28/01/2016 10:49:26    1819931

...Most dubs will want to keep this idea down...

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts:14807

Hmmm, is this really the case?

From a quick count back of posters and their views on this forum, 19 have been against it for whatever reason. The breakdown of this is Mayo * 4, Dublin * 3 and Westmeath / Antrim / All / Carlow / UK / Wicklow / Cavan / Cork / USA / Meath / Limerick / Roscommon * 1.

Conversely, 6 posters have been for the idea to one degree or another. The breakdown of this is Dublin * 3 and Cavan / Mayo / Kildare * 1.

2 Meath posters have been ambivalent as to whether they endorse it or not.

The poster who has defended the idea most vociferously is from Dublin.

Can you really truthfully say "most dubs will want to keep this idea down" when i) a large spread of posters from different counties are against it and ii) more Dubs were for the idea than any other county, thus far?

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 28/01/2016 11:01:57    1819941

The thing is damo, many do need saving. Most dubs will want to keep this idea down, because they know that amalgamation of some counties, will also probably mean changes for Dublin, and they don't want to upset their favourable apple cart.

To anyone from say Leitrim or Carlow etc. I would ask, are you comfortable with never having a hope of reaching even a quarter final, ever again? Are you comfortable with being the whipping boys for your neighbours for the rest of your days, where they routinely put out experimental sides against you? Are you happy with never being taken any ways seriously or even considered, while young lads from other counties get sponsorship for everything and anything they need. Surely, you as gaa-people deserve fairer treatment?

It would be interesting to see how 3-4 amalgamated teams from the teams in division 4 would do, something like the Kerry championship operates.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts:14807 - 28/01/2016 09:57:50 1819907

The Master my opinions are nothing to do with being a Dub and upsetting any applecart , I am first a foremost a club man , second a GAA man and a poor third a Dubs fan , ask anyone on the Dubs page were I regularly go to battle with those wearing blue tinted glasses .
My opinion is based on listening to the players and fans of these counties
I don't see or hear any encouragement
I am flabbergasted at those who would destroy a counties identity because they know better than the people living and playing there ,
History is two a penny with evil deeds carried out by those who acted for the greater good.
Is anyone who is posting here actually listening to the opinions of the affected counties .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 28/01/2016 11:02:04    1819942

Touché Kurt!!

Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 28/01/2016 11:16:38    1819946

Kurt Angle, I was talking about people in general, not specifically the ones who post on this forum alone. As for the posters of this forum, Dublin has by a distance the most people posting regularly of any county in my experience. So of all those, only 3 supported this idea. I wouldn't be calling that a win if I was you. Funny, of those who did, they seem to be able to grasp fully the ethos of fairness when the idea is to join other counties up, yet they oppose the same ethos out of hand when the idea of splitting counties was put forward. I seen a similar thing over on the dublin page about some clubs being too strong and they needed to be split up. Yet again, this is rejected as a possibility at county level - by the very people who suggested it at club level. Quite strange...

The reality is if you want to join counties then you need to split Dublin too. That is only fair. Would the same ones who favoured the idea, still favour it in that case?

Personally, I think both should happen. We could have maybe 20 odd teams, all of which could be in the running. The sport would go from strength to strength

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/01/2016 12:02:33    1819966

Kurt Angle, I was talking about people in general, not specifically the ones who post on this forum alone. As for the posters of this forum, Dublin has by a distance the most people posting regularly of any county in my experience. So of all those, only 3 supported this idea. I wouldn't be calling that a win if I was you. Funny, of those who did, they seem to be able to grasp fully the ethos of fairness when the idea is to join other counties up, yet they oppose the same ethos out of hand when the idea of splitting counties was put forward. I seen a similar thing over on the dublin page about some clubs being too strong and they needed to be split up. Yet again, this is rejected as a possibility at county level - by the very people who suggested it at club level. Quite strange...

The reality is if you want to join counties then you need to split Dublin too. That is only fair. Would the same ones who favoured the idea, still favour it in that case?

Personally, I think both should happen. We could have maybe 20 odd teams, all of which could be in the running. The sport would go from strength to strength

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts:14812 - 28/01/2016 12:02:33 1819966

The sport would not go from strength to strength , for starters you lose the Dublin vote I for one would not support a divided county and I'm not alone , equally and I will repeat myself as you haven't addressed my previous point directed to you , Where is the appetite in the smaller counties ? be it players , county boards or fans or shall we just ignore them .
Funding is a crucial part of any county , I take it your assuming that if three counties merge that automatically companies will merge their money and brand under a mongrel identity Dream on .
You know in any scenario Mayo gets to stay as it is , but nice to know you as always know best for other counties always hidden behind your faithful banner FAIR .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 28/01/2016 16:01:16    1820090

The sport would not go from strength to strength , for starters you lose the Dublin vote I for one would not support a divided county and I'm not alone

Well that is a shame, but there are plenty more people in Dublin to take your place. I think many people will feel this way initially, but over time, they would see their team - and it would be their team - involved in great games and challenging and they would come around. If they didn't, well anyone who stands in the way of progress is no great loss.


equally and I will repeat myself as you haven't addressed my previous point directed to you , Where is the appetite in the smaller counties ? be it players , county boards or fans or shall we just ignore them .

No you don't ignore them, but you also have to realise what is the right course of action and try to educate them on why it is. Some people would be for it, some against - they cant both be right can they? Like the above, people are resistant to change, but over time, when they see their players on the biggest stage, when they see the great days not only for their team but for lots of teams, and the fresh new championship that is being served up, they come around.


Funding is a crucial part of any county , I take it your assuming that if three counties merge that automatically companies will merge their money and brand under a mongrel identity Dream on .

Three times the exposure for those companies, and big days out in croke park for the world to see their name. You are right, they wouldn't just merge their money, they would have to increase it to fight off other companies looking to sponsor those teams. Do you think that AIG cares that it is Dublin they are sponsoring? Sponsorship is a numbers game. If Ballygobackwards had 1.5 million of a population they would try to sponsor them too.


You know in any scenario Mayo gets to stay as it is , but nice to know you as always know best for other counties always hidden behind your faithful banner FAIR .
Damothedub

You see this is your problem. You view the entire thing as me wanting a better deal for mayo. It is nothing to do with it. If anything, I should want to keep it as turkey shoot followed by a 3-4 horse race if that was the case. What would I want more sharks in the tank for? That is a nonsense point.
As for finding fault with Mayo for being competitive with very average resources - are you for real? Mayo only serves as an example to prove to people that you don't need 10 times the average population to have a good side. That if Dublin were split, they wouldn't fall away to nothing like you seem to fear they would. There is nothing special about mayo or donegal or whoever, so if we can do it with an average population, everyone else can too. You seem petrified of losing these advantages, are you reliant on them or something? That is the impression you are giving. Get rid of the crutch, you don't need them.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/01/2016 16:49:01    1820109

Master,i dont believe in splitting any county.Why Dublin?We won 2 All Irelands in 30 years prior to 2010.I cant remember the last hurling All Ireland Dublin have won.
How could you split a county in half,turning one against the other.Famiy,friends,relationships built up over decades from both sides of the Liffey suddenly turning against each other?Doesn't matter what part of Dublin GAA fans come from;we all want the one thing : Dublin success.
Crossmaglen have won 99% of Armagh titles over the years.Would you call for them to be split in half?Or Nemo,Thurles Sarsfields,Portlaoise,Portumna etc?

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 28/01/2016 16:59:07    1820113

Nonsense idea, I expected better from O'Shea.

It's a pity that the notion that All Ireland or provincial success is the only thing that matters anymore. Some counties will never feature even if they did join forces but the players concerned should take pride in putting on their county jersey & giving everything for the cause.

These players also have club honours to compete for & a county championship or league medal is nothing to be sniffed at.

Enough negativity!!

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 28/01/2016 17:28:17    1820121

So Master where there is no appetite its up to peps like your self to educate the dim who don't know what's good for them , equally you can say unequivocally that there are people in Dublin that would get used to Dublin being divided just where do you get your information ???????????? because they certainly aren't Dublin GAA fans , lets be clear I wont support a North Dublin if they had every advantage under the sun and where going for 5 in a row , its nothing to do with advantages , its to do with history and indentity
I played against Southside teams , I pulled on a Blue jersey all be it colleges , my son currently wears an under 16 jersey , many of my heroes are from southside clubs , I am a Dub end . Splitting is for hairs .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 28/01/2016 17:40:30    1820126

Master,i dont believe in splitting any county.Why Dublin?We won 2 All Irelands in 30 years prior to 2010.I cant remember the last hurling All Ireland Dublin have won.

Because they have the resources to easily support it, be those financial or the bodies required. More teams means more people getting intercounty football exposure and experience and better development within the county. Furthermore, all their oponents are operating at these levels already. My questions isn't why would you, it is why wouldn't you?


How could you split a county in half,turning one against the other.Famiy,friends,relationships built up over decades from both sides of the Liffey suddenly turning against each other?Doesn't matter what part of Dublin GAA fans come from;we all want the one thing : Dublin success.

Didn't do meath and westmeath much harm, did it?
I, like most people, have plenty of relations from outside my county, supporting different counties hasn't caused any issues so far. I suppose when the interest of the many is to the fore, the interests of the few people who cant get over not supporting the same team as their cousin any more, isn't really a massive concern. They, like a lot of others, would have a new team, a team that if and when they win a trophy, don't have complaints of having every advantage under the sun aimed at them over and over. I think two Dublin teams playing against each other would be a great spectacle actually, with each defining their own decades of success and great competition.


Crossmaglen have won 99% of Armagh titles over the years.Would you call for them to be split in half?Or Nemo,Thurles Sarsfields,Portlaoise,Portumna etc?
cuederocket

I don't know enough details of those examples. Do they get huge financial advantages over everyone else? Do they have 10 times the average population of all the other clubs? Are they the most professional team in the country? If they mirror the Dublin situation exactly then I would think some sort of action would be required to rectify this, yes. The parameters of clubs can be different so the exact method might need ironing out in it's own right based on its own merits, but some action would be needed if the above was true.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/01/2016 17:50:11    1820129

That is a shame damo, but Im sure you can appreciate, the rest of the country will never be held to ransom by a few guys who don't want progress just because they like the old way.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/01/2016 17:58:01    1820132

Master,fair points you made,but i dont agree with splitting any county.To be fair i think you want the best for the wider GAA family and not just your own county.There are many on here that cannot say that.
Wait until the Championship starts and the hammerings/missmatches begin,once more.But as long as the smaller/weaker counties dream of that one big win every 50 years(and who am i to argue with them) there is nothing that will be done.But as the years go by i find myself less and less sympathetic to their plight.Every year,same old story.Half the counties have very little hope of a Provincial never mind an All Ire.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 28/01/2016 18:28:45    1820142