There are millions of brilliant hurlers to pick from in all counties. As a young person I liked JBM in attack and Conor Hayes as a sound defender

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1728 - 25/03/2015 21:44:39    1706641

If Mullane and McGrath were playing on those Kilkenny teams they would have won many All Irelands.If Henry was from Waterford how many All Irelands would he have?Henry is a great player but being on Kilkenny teams during their greatest era did him no harm.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 25/03/2015 21:51:56    1706644

Please dont mention individual scores. For example Mick Mackey scored 5 goals and 3 points in a Munster Final in Thurles V Tipp. His direct opponent that day was John Maher and he was also center back the following year when Tipp won the All Ireland the following year as he was in the in the victorious Tipp teams of 1930 and 1945, so for 16 years he was Center Back in one of the main teams of his era. Yet Mackey scored that much off him in his heyday. The fact is it is impossible to compare teams and players of different eras. Indeed Eddie Keher whom I saw had even a longer career that Henry and still a very dangerous and always a starting player right up to his retirement

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4490 - 25/03/2015 21:56:52    1706645

he's the best of his generations cant compare between era's like ya cant compare modern hurling to when ring and mackey were playing differnet game altogether

srgt_slaughter (Meath) - Posts: 462 - 26/03/2015 08:44:43    1706652

Takes a special type of arrogance or stupidity to say yes definitively , to ignore that he played with some of the greatest ever players , to ignore he played on possibbly the greatest ever team , with the greatest ever hurling coach , to ignore the talents of those gone by and those still playing man thats rich .Oh and dont forget to mention the back door conveiently forgotten by some
In having this debate the problem is its two black n white say hes not the greatest and your somehow putting down the man the player down its like showing a lack of respect .
If you define greatest by achievements then argument solved , however as any sportsman worth his salt will tell you Messi has never won a world cup but Nobby stiles did , Now when the greatest in that code is debated whos name will be up there , I picked Stiles fact is could have picked hundreds of others and other sports also .
For me Henry never got me going in the way Paul Flynn , John Mullane , DJ , Tommy , Joe Canning , got me going ,
I will say this King Henry was a fantastic hurler , fantastic leader , and would make team of the century , you can only be the best in the time your born .
Should also mention hes the player I would encourage any young player playing to follow as nobody has worked harder than the King to get were he got , a fine example of hard work , determination combined with steel guts and ability to triumph over bad injuries something to admire .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 26/03/2015 08:51:12    1706653

No doubt that Shefflin will go that as the most successful player of all time but as hurlers go I think there was better.
Eoin Kelly carried Tipp for 7/8 years, could Henry have done that? Who knows?
Fair play to him though, he got what he deserved through hard work and dedication.

Joe_Bloggs (Tipperary) - Posts: 186 - 26/03/2015 09:07:48    1706656

The man is the highest scorer in championship history im not saying that's what makes him the best of all time but it's another amazing achievement for The King. IMO if Henry was on that Waterford team of the 00's they would of won All Irelands.

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 26/03/2015 09:17:04    1706658

Millions of brilliant hurlers suckvalley, how long have you been watching hurling for!!. Hard to say if King Henry was the greatest hurler of all time, if you include parameters such as All Ireland medals, Provincial medals, league medals, club medals he is pretty much untouchable. However as somebody else has already pointed out, he was a big strong lad who gave his everything for Kilkenny, a selfless player who worked his socks off in every game, hooked, blocked, tacked ferociously, was a great free taker, and did more than his fair share of scoring. He was also a gentleman at the end of it all, a man devoted to his family and Kilkenny hurling, but still not the greatest hurler of all time.

gilly0512 (Galway) - Posts: 1176 - 26/03/2015 09:33:13    1706661

u misread my post gilly, thanks for trying

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1728 - 26/03/2015 09:57:56    1706664

A fantastic player who had an excellent career, playing in possibly the greatest hurling team of all time. Averaging 8 points per match in the championship. A true great

ShortGrass_1 (Kildare) - Posts: 223 - 26/03/2015 09:59:21    1706665

Of his generation certainly one of the best. I think its an impossible question to answer given the different eras, styles of play, speed of the game and fitness levels etc over these eras.

I have often thought of the best 15 i have seen hurl stretching back to the 80s and he would certainly make it into the forward line along with DJ, Nicky English, Joe Canning, Eoin Kelly (Tipp). The last slot is a toss up between Joe Deane/John Mullane/Paul Flynn and Kevin Broderick, couple of decent subs mind you!

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 26/03/2015 10:37:36    1706676

For me it would be DJ, having seen both of them play in the same team, it was DJ who had the magic that Henry didn't have. Henry would wear you down over the 70 mins, but it was DJ who could take the heart out of you within 3 mins of the game.. like he did to Clare in 2002. Both of them were fantastic players.

Farney (Monaghan) - Posts: 814 - 26/03/2015 10:56:26    1706683

Shefflin never went missing like DJ, Flynn, tended to do. Both were more skillfull than Shefflin, but Id have him in my team before them any day. Even though his team were great, he carried them sometimes too, like in the 2012 ai final or the semifinal against Waterford (was it 2004?).
DJ probably tarnished his reputation by staying on too long, many will remember him fropm the noughties when he wasnt half the hurler that he had been in the 90s

flack (Dublin) - Posts: 1054 - 26/03/2015 11:18:37    1706693

flack
County: Dublin
Posts: 570

1706693 Shefflin never went missing like DJ, Flynn, tended to do. Both were more skillfull than Shefflin, but Id have him in my team before them any day. Even though his team were great, he carried them sometimes too, like in the 2012 ai final or the semifinal against Waterford (was it 2004?).
DJ probably tarnished his reputation by staying on too long, many will remember him fropm the noughties when he wasnt half the hurler that he had been in the 90s

Your actually talking rubbish there. Shefflin went missing plenty of times but he was surrounded by great players who picked up the slack & Kilkenny usually won so nothing was said.

I have to laugh at the mystique that Henry has built up about the 2012 Drawn All Ireland. He scored 1 point from play in the whole game, missed some handy frees in the 1st Half & had 2 chances to win the game at the end but missed both. Just because he was the only Kilkenny forward to play anyway decent doesn't mean his performance was the greatest ever display as some call it.

In relation to your comment about DJ, its was actually the early 00's when he really produced the goods for Kilkenny. After a couple of quiet finals in the late nineties he came back to produce the goods in the 2000 Final, the 2002 Semi & Final.

I actually think his contribution in the Semi Final v Tipp in 2002 was nearly his greatest achievement. That win laid the foundations for Kilkenny's dominance which has lasted to the present day. If Tipp had won that day I think the Hurling landscape would have been quite different over the following years.

Dessie13 (Dublin) - Posts: 70 - 26/03/2015 12:43:43    1706722

It's the age old question - is the greatness of a player dependent upon the number of medals he won, or how well he played? Shefflin played really well for Kilkenny for many years, in a side which was completely dominant for that whole period. Only Cork under O'Grady and Tipp under Sheedy matched them at all, and they only lasted a year or two. He's an excellent player, no doubt. I don't believe he is the greatest ever, but at the same time I can't pick out a greatest ever. People are mentioning DJ Carey and others. They weren't the greatest. It's an interesting argument, but in my mind medals don't equal greatness (aas you need a team around you). Was Shefflin a more skilful stickman than John Troy, Paul Flynn, Tommy Dunne? A more deadly finisher than John Mullane, Joe Deane or Eoin Kelly? Was he more of a leader to his team than Ken McGrath, Brian Whelehan or Joe Cooney? All you can say is he was up there with the best of them, that his medal haul was unreal, and that he was a savage hurler.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2573 - 26/03/2015 13:38:28    1706737

Dessie,thats a valid point you make regards Henrys performance in the 2012 final.He played well and scored a good second half point but i thought at the time it was over hyped.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 26/03/2015 14:08:08    1706744

It's impossible to compare unless a specific criteria is agreed. Otherwise it's all opinion and anyway criteria like 'best team player' is still unquantifiable. However, what stands out for me is not the amount he won but the fact that he was the driving force, the go-to man, the ultimate leader in the most successful team of all time - a team which boasts some of the all time greats and most of the current greats. That means not that he was successful by association but that the team was as successful because of him and therefore gets my vote as being the greatest.

According to the David v Goliath theory (Malcolm Gladwell) being a big fish in a small pond creates a much easier path to 'stunted' greatness than being in a place of greatness and being the driving force or leader of that field.
So rather than asking would Shefflin have been as effective in Tipp as Kelly or in Waterford as McGrath the question should be could they possibly have been as magnanimous as Shefflin if born in Kilkenny.

wicklu (Wicklow) - Posts: 331 - 26/03/2015 15:41:23    1706784

wicklu
County: Wicklow
Posts: 175

1706784

So rather than asking would Shefflin have been as effective in Tipp as Kelly or in Waterford as McGrath the question should be could they possibly have been as magnanimous as Shefflin if born in Kilkenny.

I think so yes.

I also agree with the two Dublin lads.. Galway beat themselves in 2012, the finishing line was in sight and they froze..

Joe_Bloggs (Tipperary) - Posts: 186 - 26/03/2015 16:43:31    1706808

I have to laugh at the mystique that Henry has built up about the 2012 Drawn All Ireland. He scored 1 point from play in the whole game, missed some handy frees in the 1st Half & had 2 chances to win the game at the end but missed both. Just because he was the only Kilkenny forward to play anyway decent doesn't mean his performance was the greatest ever display as some call it.

Agree here in a way, in 02 and 03 he had better finals even the replay in 2012 he was superb in the first half. Yet in the drawn game he hauled Kilkenny back from the brink hit some massive frees, I remember under the Hogan Stand in the first half where Kilkenny looked dead and buried. I remember his flick down for Colin Fennellys goal chance and the pass, just sheer brilliance. He took that game by the scruff of the neck and saved Kilkenny it has to be said.

Without argument, YES!

westisthebest (Galway) - Posts: 444 - 26/03/2015 20:27:35    1706887