As an Armagh native but consigned to live in Belfast for my sins I have a view on this from both sides of the coin. For a start the thing that fills me with dread is travelling to clones and parking wherever takes the fancy followed by massive tailbacks. Belfast has plenty of aertial drop off points for example, the shaws road has 4 GAA clubs and 2 other clubs near by to accomadate cars and to provide transport to and from the Andersonstown Road. You also have a number of bus park and rides outside of the M1 which could be utilised from the M50 side or West bound. There are also supermarkets near the stadium which I would imagine would be only too happy to accomadate customers in and out of the big smoke.
There's also a McDonald's there which is great to throw stones at.
Andytown road would be amazing on match day with 30,000 Gaels.

Rules_man (Armagh) - Posts: 152 - 15/01/2015 16:56:21    1683582

For the benefit of our Belfast GAA fans - Belfast is not, never was and never will be my Capital.

Nor mine artisan - though I am not a Belfast GAA man.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 15/01/2015 17:18:59    1683594

Downpatrick? Rostrevor? Banbridge? Hillsborough where there's a castle maybe artisan?

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9780 - 15/01/2015 18:38:21    1683628

Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 7097

1683354
I wonder what Gary makes of the many South Derry Gaels who aren't too happy to track over the Glenshane Pass to go to county games in Derry City given that Derry City is a soccer place and NOT really a GAA town? Gary would of course agree that the beating heart of the GAA in Derry lies in the south of the county and refurbishing Celtic Park goes against what Derry Gaels wanted?

Ulsterman you are 100% correct in what you say, and I agree 100% with you on this.

1. The sheer majority of Derry Gael's are not from Derry City, and I agree refurbishing Celtic Park would probably not be popular with the majority at support level. I'm not a fan of Celtic Park been the home of Derry GAA.

2. Derry City like Belfast City is simply not a GAA town, and having a large GAA Stadium located here just didn't change that fact as originally hoped. This is partly why I had hoped lessons might be learned before making a similar mistake in Belfast.

3. I would prefer Derry's GAA ground to be in a more accessible location for the Whole County, with Owenbeg an excellent possible location with excellent facilities already in place there. I don't mind driving out to Dungiven for games, it good road and not far from all directions.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/01/2015 19:11:04    1683648

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1897

1683385
As for Donegal, I think Ballybofey was chosen because of the length of the County and the road layout to all parts of Ulster's largest County. It was a logistical descision at the time, in an effort to accomodate all.

Sensible thinking, now if we could apply that logic to an Ulster stadium. Let me check to see the main roads in Ulster:
M1
M2

Now, it would be great if these two roads met as that would be ideal for getting traffic to and from this stadium. (Checks map) hang on Belfast fits this criteria so they should look there. Oh wait, Casement which they are going with IS in Belfast. Good to see they are smart.

More rope?

Your clutching at straws lads, your all back tracking after the silly South Derry comment last night and now nit picking for something.

And with regards Ballybofey been chosen, I had Indeed heard many years ago that it was for logistical purposes. It was fairly close to being half way from North/South extremes of the County, while also have westbound road branching out to Glenties/Ardara and Fintown/Dungloe/Gweedore. In essence, Ballybofey was likely considered to be the most central location within a massive county in terms of travel time from the most extreme South, West coast and North directions.

It wasn't simply a case of being a place where roads met, as I'm sure Glenties and other towns in Co Donegal would have been similar in that regard.

Another case showing why a central location is the way to go ( Like the South Derry point made by Antrim posters last night ).

Keep the rope, I you need it all yourself. None of these arguments are working out well for you

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/01/2015 19:30:35    1683652

Naysayer
County: Antrim
Posts: 1092

1683483
bumpernut you beat me to it - to say Belfast is not a GAA city is ridiculous - there are probably more Gaels in Belfast than in a good number of counties in Ireland.

If I'm wrong, then I'll put my hands up and admit it.

But I remember seeing figures a year or so back, and in terms of club member's, Season ticket holders and overall Intercounty GAA attendance figures, I'm nearly sure Antrim was near the bottom of all 3 list's.

A combination of all 3 would give a strong Indication of Gaelic following within a given area.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/01/2015 19:34:43    1683654

Ha - any more back tracking and you'll be in the Foyle Gary.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 15/01/2015 19:50:18    1683662

Naysayer
County: Antrim
Posts: 1092

1683483
bumpernut you beat me to it - to say Belfast is not a GAA city is ridiculous - there are probably more Gaels in Belfast than in a good number of counties in Ireland.

I actually was surprised myself when I was pulling together the earlier figures to find that there was nearly as many Catholics in greater Belfast as the West of Northern Ireland.

Yes of course this does not include Donegal, Monaghan and Armagh but it does give strong weight to the location in Belfast when you can plant it on the doorstep of so many people and the bonus of being central to the trunk road network.

Also Gary I asked the question about the location of Derrys home ground - not to compare Derry to Belfast as Belfast is much more of a GAA city than Derry but rather to see where your principles stood within your own county so your response was of interest to me but it does not surprise me or annoy me that you agree that the South Derry stronghold should host the games.

Yes Nearly as many, But sadly not all Catholics are Gael's/GAA fans. The best and most accurate way to determine how strong GAA is within a County, is to see how many "Club member's" are registered, also how many "Season ticket holders" ( Quite a few of which may not be club members ) and finally the average attendance figures at League/Championship games.

Now if you check these 3 sets of statistics for all 9 Counties of Ulster, I suspect Belfast will not be on the doorstep of the majority. However this is where a central location will prove to be viable.

With regards the South Derry post last night, I got the feeling that Ulsterman was sure I would disagree with him and be adamant that Derry's Stadium should remain in its current location. But I do feel for the South Derry fans who travel so far, and also for fans from Coleraine and Limavady too. Derry City has plenty of Gaelic fans, but it terms of it's population size, It has a relatively low percentage of GAA members, especially when you consider that Derry City is 79-80% made of people from Nationalist/Republican/Catholic backgrounds.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/01/2015 19:51:25    1683664

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1898

1683662
Ha - any more back tracking and you'll be in the Foyle Gary.

No back tracking from me Offside_Rule, simply more clarification to weaken your overall case even further.

Since last night I have now shown
1. Locating Derry's County Ground in Derry City was probably a mistake, as it isn't central and hasn't help Improve GAA participation within the traditionally soccer mad City. Hard work by GAA club members within the City has helped more than anything.
2. Ballybofey was likely chosen on the basis I suggested, for being a central location in terms of travel time in the other extreme directions.
3. I have highlighted that GAA membership, Season ticket holders and overall Intercounty match attendance figures should help give a better Indication of the true spread of Gael's within 9 County Ulster. Which should either confirm or debunk the earlier Antrim point that Belfast is a GAA stronghold with probably more gael's than most parts of Ireland.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/01/2015 19:59:53    1683666

Nothing you have said to date has weakened my case nor my belief that Belfast is the right choice and in fact the more you post the more you feed in to this belief though you haven't the gumption to even see that. But you can hold on to those beliefs as that is your right similarly as it is mine to hold on to mine - though do you ever think you are the lone voice?

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 15/01/2015 21:08:30    1683690

Oh and throw us these stats to we analyse them if you don't mind - not that I agree that season tickets are a good sign of how GAA you are just that I am curious to look at them. I have been involved for 3+ decades in the GAA playing at all levels up to County and managing too as well as attending both our County Football and Hurling matches as a spectator yet I have never held a season ticket so if that's your yardstick to how big a Gael you are then it puts things in to even more perspective.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 15/01/2015 21:16:45    1683700

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1900

1683690
Nothing you have said to date has weakened my case nor my belief that Belfast is the right choice and in fact the more you post the more you feed in to this belief though you haven't the gumption to even see that. But you can hold on to those beliefs as that is your right similarly as it is mine to hold on to mine - though do you ever think you are the lone voice?

The truth is I am 100% right in what I say, and I constantly back up what I am saying. If you disagree, just have a look at the previous 7 or 8 pages on this thread, and you will see that I address almost every post aimed at me. And I have yet to feel like I lost an argument on any of these debates.

I've heard every kind of absurd argument, such as "You don't hear the Rugby or Soccer fans objecting to their Stadiums being located in Belfast". The fact both host International fixtures, kinda would debunk that point without me pointing out stuff I already said.

Clearly our GAA Provincial Stadium will not host International GAA matches on a regular basis every season. It is primarily for Provincial GAA games, contested by the 9 Counties of Ulster. And for that strong reason alone, It should be centered on all 9 Counties.

Putting this the Provincial Stadium in Belfast is a mistake, And if it proceeds, it will face stiff competition within Belfast for Concerts and Business events from the other two Stadiums.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/01/2015 21:47:17    1683722

Show us something substantial Gary. I have given stats and figures on travel times etc to rubbish your claims of Clones being as central, others have given actual stats about population figures etc to refute other claims yet you just talk facts without anything to back them up apart from your opinion and the fact that you are always 100% right . Might take you a bit more seriously then.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 15/01/2015 21:59:30    1683729

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1900

1683700
Oh and throw us these stats to we analyse them if you don't mind - not that I agree that season tickets are a good sign of how GAA you are just that I am curious to look at them. I have been involved for 3+ decades in the GAA playing at all levels up to County and managing too as well as attending both our County Football and Hurling matches as a spectator yet I have never held a season ticket so if that's your yardstick to how big a Gael you are then it puts things in to even more perspective.


Well Offside_rule, there is no hierarchy of supporter within the GAA. You either support or you don't. You attend games or you don't, you buy merchandise or you don't. Does it matter whether you pay a club for Intercounty tickets, or if you buy a Season ticket.

I have been GAA mad my entire life, due to the Influence of my family and extended family in Tyrone and Donegal. I don't feel I am higher up the pecking order than others because of that though.

I hold a Season ticket and have openly said on other threads that I don't currently hold a Club membership. Funny enough, I pay more for the Season ticket than my last club membership fee, and have noted other former club members who have purchased Season tickets and not club memberships.

I originally said Club Members, Season ticket holders and Intercounty attendance figures. Don't exclude Season ticket holders, simply because you don't have one.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/01/2015 22:00:24    1683731

Yes Nearly as many, But sadly not all Catholics are Gael's/GAA fans. The best and most accurate way to determine how strong GAA is within a County, is to see how many "Club member's" are registered, also how many "Season ticket holders" ( Quite a few of which may not be club members ) and finally the average attendance figures at League/Championship games.

Gary of course not all Catholics are Gaels/GAA fans but there is a good chance that they would have had exposure to the game at some point and looking at Census figures it is the best proxy that I can get.

I am interested in the figures that you have unearthed and would be grateful if you could share the link with us though like Offside I think these would have to be treated with caution as in all my years of being involved in GAA I have never had a season ticket yet in recent years when season tickets appeared more I would often be attending on average at leasr two games a week and that is not including underage games. But like I say these sort of figures are always of interest to me and I suspect you are waiting until you get some accusation of not having the figures before gleefully producing them so cough them on up while the interest is there thanks.

Look I have said it before and I will repeat - I do think that from a purely GAA view a stadium that is most central is what would be ideal as long as there was good access. However in light of the size of Ulster meaning no-one is really that far away from anywhere, the trunk road network all leading to Belfast, the size of the Catloic/Nationalist population in Greater Belfast in comparison to the entire province, the amenities in the general vicinity etc etc etc it is not a complete nonsense to house the stadium here - far from it - to me it makes a lot of sense but even if you or others do not agree with this and feel there are better places I find it hard to see how you can argue too strongly against Belfast.

And ultimately none of this makes one bit of difference to the fact that Belfast is the only show in town and we are at a stage of doing a bit of redrawing to get the thing moving again.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/01/2015 09:02:39    1683738

See, the GAA obviously means different things to you and me Gary. For me the most important part of the GAA is the grass root level i.e. the Club. Without the Clubs we have no GAA. I know of people who are also not members of clubs who attend all county games, wear all the county gear and consider themselves ultra GAA but do nothing to keep the game going within their community. I have had debates with people before on All Ireland tickets and the likes where they have said they attended all the County games and it wasn't fair that someone like me who wasn't even from one of the Counties had a ticket and they couldn't get one. Not only did it not dawn on them that it was through my club membership that I got my ticket but I also explained that on a Sunday when they could take all day to travel to wherever to follow the county team I was out in a field taking a club team for training or getting ready for a match which to me is more important than going to support your County team if a choice has to be made.

Its kind of ironic that you say in your last post there is no hierarchy of supporter within the GAA yet you are the one who is saying that Belfast and Antrim (and Down) aren't as GAA as the other Counties (The majority of Ulster's GAA fans do not reside in Belfast City, Co Antrim or Co Down/ Belfast City is simply not a GAA town….. This is partly why I had hoped lessons might be learned before making a similar mistake in Belfast') but again I am well used to the contradictions within your posts as previously pointed out to you on more than one occasion. You also belittle the area around West Belfast which is a proud area of Belfast and a proud GAA area. But we get it - you don't like Belfast.

Myself, other Antrim posters, ones from Armagh, Dublin, Down and beyond have all posted on the merits of Belfast but you won't accept this and continue to spout the Parochial Antrim posters line. Then you have the gall to say you are speaking for the majority of Ulster GAA fans yet as I pointed out last night you are a bit of a lone voice - a modern day Don Quixote if you like.

So, much as I enjoy the debate, I think I will do what I said 12 odd pages back and wait now until such times as the Planning is resubmitted and an actual decision taken rather than go round the houses with the debate as it currently is. If at that point the stadium isn't going ahead at Casement then I will happily engage in the debate as to where any new GAA funded stadium should be located in Ulster.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 16/01/2015 09:25:15    1683745

Ive said if before and i'll say it again your argument is based on your prejudices iro Belfast and West Belfast in particular.

You know nothing of the area or the strength of the GAA in that area bar an occasional trip once every couple of years to support your County. I will be the first to say and indeed have already said that Belfast GAA could do with the filip that hopefullly Casement will provide. However, that does not mean that Belfast/West Belfast GAA is dead or non existent. We are, im sure like all other Irish cities in direct competition with soccer, rugby may be an issue in years to come.
Hopefully the building of Casement will increase the numbers of our kids wanting to pick up a hurl or a football. You compare it to Celtic Park, however, Belfast,unlike Derry City, has always had a strong GAA base as i have proved yet you still try to tell people different with your wishy washy nonsense about figures that you had heard/read.Ive provided facts which cant be disputed and if you do have the figures as naysayer suspects, then throw them out there and let people discuss them.
I'll fire another fact or two at you Gary, do you remember the Ulster Football final in 2009 when Antrim supporters outnumbered their Tyrone counterparts. Or do you remember 1989 All Ireland Hurling Final in Croke Park when half the stadium was filled with Antrim supporters.
If the weight of your argument is influenced by numbers of GAA supporters then there are more than enough GAA supporters from Belfast and Antrim to fill the new Casement on their own. The problem currently is the County teams are not successful with no expectation of success so people do not go to watch them. If Antrim were in an Ulster football final in Casement Park i guarantee there would be a huge demand like in other successful counties.
As Patrique I think once said Antrim GAA is the beating heart of Ulster GAA. If he didnt say it then he should have as i guarantee he thought it. Imn afraid thats me, like offside, over and out on this discussion, so good luck in igniting the spark for your campaign to relocate as you'll need it.

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 16/01/2015 11:05:46    1683791

I go away for a week and this is still being discussed - the minute I read that Belfast and to a lesser extent Antrim and Gods own county (An Dún) arent really GAA areas and Belfast was similiar to Derry soccer city, then I knew enough was enough!!

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

Tim_Burr (Down) - Posts: 460 - 16/01/2015 12:23:50    1683824

Im told that it was stated in the local paper in Monaghan that a meeting is taking place in the next couple of days between Monaghan Co council, Ulster council GAA, Monaghan GAA and St Teirnachs club in clones in relation to a potential redevelopment in Clones.
Does anybody know anything about that?

rossie72 (Roscommon) - Posts: 63 - 16/01/2015 17:44:42    1683940

Never heard that rossie72 thought it is possible as it could do with a bit of work. Would all be totally independent of Casement though.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/01/2015 20:25:18    1683980