Casement does not have the road network. The M1 will become the car park right back to Lisburn and that is what the Police are concerned about. Every game in Casement that has over 10,000 spectators is invariably delayed by half an hour because of the traffic chaos that is happening outside. Rhetorical question time ??, but what is going to happen if 40,000 spectators arrive.

drumlinbelt (Monaghan) - Posts: 179 - 09/01/2015 09:44:58    1681670

I think an issue that has not really been touched on with Belfast is that for a lot of folk the idea of driving to Belfast fills them with terror, roads with more than one lane take them right out of their comfort zone and the lack of open spaces make them feel claustrophobic and in general causes meltdown. As such the day out for the driver and indeed often the passengers is not one of enjoyment but rather one of trepidation, fear and eventually relief when it is all done and dusted. This maybe has a big impact on the opinions we are seeing here. This maybe is the elephant in the room.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 09/01/2015 09:46:57    1681672

drumlinbelt the M2 also takes many times more people in to work in Belfast every day of the week - think man before you post.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 09/01/2015 09:51:54    1681673

lol - and so should I - my bad - M1.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 09/01/2015 09:57:26    1681674

drumlinbelt the M2 also takes many times more people in to work in Belfast every day of the week - think man before you post.

Ha - nail on head Naysayer. Too many people posting without thinking through what they are saying.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 09/01/2015 09:58:23    1681676

I think parking and leaving their car in or around Casement and West Belfast fills them with terror. Belfast is but a small regional city in the grand scheme of things. I think the argument you are making has you stuck back in the 1950's. If this is where you are in the defence of the political decision to pump £80 into Belfast, then you truly are scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

drumlinbelt (Monaghan) - Posts: 179 - 09/01/2015 09:59:43    1681679

lol - and so should I - my bad - M1.

M1/M2 - immaterial as the point is correct. There are more people travelling in these roads Mon to Friday to work than would be travelling on a match day at the weekend.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 09/01/2015 10:00:54    1681680

Naysayer. Over a longer period of time and to different parts of the small regional city, in world terms. You should not think you live in a big city. It is not. So you are saying the PSNI have it completely wrong in terms of the traffic chaos ??. Interesting !!

drumlinbelt (Monaghan) - Posts: 179 - 09/01/2015 10:07:24    1681684

I think parking and leaving their car in or around Casement and West Belfast fills them with terror. Belfast is but a small regional city in the grand scheme of things. I think the argument you are making has you stuck back in the 1950's. If this is where you are in the defence of the political decision to pump £80 into Belfast, then you truly are scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

Please expand on this as I do not follow what you mean - apologies if I am slow on the uptake but break this down in to bites for me.

Are you saying that my ascertation that for some folk the thought of driving to Belfast fills them with dread means I am stuck in the 1950's? (Long way from Monaghan on a tractor I accept)

Are you saying that by pointing this out that this is my defence of building a stadium in Belfast and choosing to ignore any other point I have made?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 09/01/2015 10:16:58    1681687

drumlinbelt where did I ever say I live in Belfast? However in terms of the 6 counties in the North of Ireland Belfast is not only a big City but a Primate Ctiy. You or me cannot change that.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 09/01/2015 10:22:20    1681689

drumlinbelt the issue is about the traffic after it gets off the M1 and this is what has to be addressed before plans are resubmitted. It is a good thing that this has been flagged up meaning proper consideration will be given to traffic management rather than rushing the thing through and everyone having to wing it when they get off the M1.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 09/01/2015 10:27:04    1681690

I think parking and leaving their car in or around Casement and West Belfast fills them with terror. Belfast is but a small regional city in the grand scheme of things. I think the argument you are making has you stuck back in the 1950's. If this is where you are in the defence of the political decision to pump £80 into Belfast, then you truly are scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

Ah we're back to the sheer horror of even having to enter Andersonstown!

This is the real reason why the majority of you object.

I have to say the disgraceful denigrating of an area and the community that live there are disgraceful.

It has been said before that we expect that from our not so green neighbours but to hear it expressed continually from 'supposed' gaels is nothing short of disgraceful.

To be honest if you feel that strongly, do the people of West Belfast and Andersonstown a favour and stay at home when this project is completed, you'll not be missed!

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 09/01/2015 10:52:08    1681696

Jaysus lads if the road network in Belfast won't be able to handle match day traffic then there is literally not another place in the whole of Ulster that could!

If you're using that as an excuse to not have the stadium in Belfast then you clearly have to object to Clones currently and object to any other site in the whole province.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13800 - 09/01/2015 12:04:36    1681720

It appears that one of the main points being missed here is the incompetency of the Ulster Council in dealing with this. The judge was very critical of them in overturning the application. Fast forward a couple of weeks to the Mc Kenna cup game of Armagh & Tyrone where they have 5 turnstiles open for over 8500 people, a grudge match with a carry over from last year with a new manager in Armagh, it was always going to attract a large crowd, another very badly handled affair by them. The incompetency is awash throughout the GAA where new ideas & new people are not let through in case it would dilute the power of those in charge or upstage them, radical & progressive thinking is discouraged, very poor use of the professionals in their fields who are GAA members who are willing to help. Its very similar to politics & the way that is run on this island, poorly. Cronyism abounds. In Galway we have had the farcical application for planning for lights in Pearse Stadium, on the first occasion it was denied as there was a forged signature on the application ! This is a county with full time staff yet Connacht Rugby in the same city dealing with the same City Council were able to develop a new stand, lights, new training centre/dressing rooms, get grant aided by the City Council & develop large revenue streams with business in the city. So whats the difference,I know at local level in Galway people are flocking to other activities, who wants to play football or manage a team when you don't know when you will play from January to December.

Uimhir.a.3. (Galway) - Posts: 409 - 09/01/2015 12:09:05    1681722

Aye but MesAmis - as long as the distance the crow flies is shorter in a green field then nothing else matters. Doesn't matter that if you put the crow in a car and tell it to drive that it might be all day getting there.... ;-)

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 09/01/2015 12:14:46    1681728

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1874

1681661
Gary - I have answered that question i.e. why a major population centre is more viable than a rural green field site in many posts. I have also highlighted the problems facing a green field site in relation to generating funds beyond what the GAA games will bring in or why somehwere like Belfast has an advantage over them. But, as these have obviously escaped you I will brielfy list them again:

- ROAD AND AIRPORT: Belfast has the road, rail and air networks all already in place with a Motorway running so close to Casement that if you had a strong enough kick you'd be nearly able to land the ball on the M1.

- BUSINESS CONFERNENCES: All major business and companies are located in and around Belfast - making the facilities planned for the stadium viable on a daily basis - akin to Croke Park. You can't say that a rural location would have the same draw for companies who want to organise training days, conferences etc.

- 1.5 HOURS DRIVE TO A FEW PARTS OF ULSTER: Belfast is already within 1.5 hrs from most of the Province as it is served by 2 motorways - M1 from the South/West and M2 from the North.

- BELFAST HAS MORE BARS & RESTAURANTS: A green field stadium won't have hotels, restaurants, bars, shops etc around it so you are making it a stadium for a match experience only. We hear people talking about the occasion that is Clones because of all the wee bars etc - you won't have this in a greenfield site but instead people will arrive for throw-in and then leave again leaving it less of an experience. People say that Casement doesn't have this but it has pubs, restaurants etc which no doubt will be modernised or upgraded too. Up until now there was no need as for the whole Casement wasn't getting any big matches. But with the new stadium it will bring a new lease of life to the surrounding area - take Celtic Park/Parkhead as an example. The area in which it is located is a traditionally economically disadvantaged area, yet you go over there on match day and the experience is great if you head in to the pubs in the surrounding areas. The whole place comes alive.

- CONCERTS: Concerts and similar events - again, you have nothing to offer the people who go to the likes of Dublin for concerts and make a weekend out of it - stay in hotels, eat in restaurants, go to bars. If you have a rural stadium again you can only offer the concert.

- BELFAST CITY MORE APPEALING TO POP ARTISTS THAT CO TYRONE: Plus, a city stadium to play in would be more appealing for the artist themselves - how many major concerts in Ireland do you see being held in stadiums outside Dublin?

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Offside_rule, thank you for finally laying your priorities and Indeed your main reasons for supporting this Casement Park project out in the open for scrutiny. I separated your post, so the points you listed would not be lost in a long post eg. Airports, Concerts, Business conferences, shopping, hotel's, restaurants etc.

My entire arguments are based around the majority of GAA fans not having to travel as far on match days, keeping fuel costs down and allowing easy and quick access from all corners of Ulster.
Clearly making life easy for GAA fans isn't economically viable, or gets in the way of greater profits for the organization.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 09/01/2015 13:00:06    1681749

Offside_rule, thank you for finally laying your priorities and Indeed your main reasons for supporting this Casement Park project out in the open for scrutiny.

I had already posted all these comments and more previously so was just reiterating a few of them. But look, I understand the arguement for having it centrally located from a travel perspective as long as the infrastructure was in place etc. But from a realistic point decisions on a stadium of this sort aren't taken solely on what would be best for the travelling Joe Public who travels to a match but how viable it is and at the end of the day money talks.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 09/01/2015 13:20:44    1681755

Now, you still haven't answered what advantages (beyond proximity to counties) a green field site has over the likes of Belfast? With regards to the A5 upgrade - they have been talking about such an upgrade for as long as I can remember - a few decades ago they were talking about the western corridor running North to South and what stage has it got to or when is it going to be completed? You are talking about it like it is going to be built this year or next - its not and God knows when it will actually go ahead. We are already in to year 8 from the latest plans were submitted in 2007 and nothing yet. Plus you are saying it is farmers holding it up but again this isn't even correct as it was the EUs Habitats Directive was the main fly in the ointment due to the amount of bogland etc which was going to be destroyed in the upgrade. Plus there is the financial side of the upgrade - £70m has already been spent and not a piece of sod turned. There is a dilema now (as of late 2014) as to whether they cancel it and pour this money down the drain or do they continue knowing that to even get to Stage 2 of the 3 stage upgrade is going to cost £330m which isn't available in the rpesent climate. Do we go on ahead and build this stadium and then wait for the road upgrade and in the meantime have another Clones with regards traffic management/problems?

As I say - greenfield sites though ideological have too many potential problems or unanswered questions to make them viable.

I will answer that, but let me highlight the following 2 points.

1. I did mentions that regardless of whether the A5 goes ahead, the location would still ensure superb travel times for most fans due to its proximity to Belfast, Newry, Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan, Enniskillen, Donegal town, Omagh, Strabane, Derry and Letterkenny. Although I still admire your resolve in reviewing the planning applications in great detail.

2. If such a green field site is found to not be viable, I also suggested ( Check my posts from Page 11 onwards ) Healy Park redevelopment would be an "In-town" alternative in a similar location.


Now your question:
What advantages ( beyond proximity to counties ) a green field site has over Belfast?

Beyond proximity to counties you say, thus excluding the following
1. A Central Stadium saving people up to 1 or 2 hours driving or travel times each way on match days ( Plus reduced fuel cost ).
2. This close proximity to all Ulster counties, making it viable choice for double header National league matches ( Something currently not done in Ulster).

ANSWER:
1. A large green field site does not have space restrictions of a City Stadium redevelopment.
- Meaning greater potential of having vast on-site parking.
- Less complex stand designs required( Multi-tier ), which are normally arhitectural solutions to deal with lack of space surrounding Stadiums ( Except in case of larger 50-80,000 capacity Stadiums ).

2. Similar or larger Stadiums have already been successfully located in more remote regions, and there has been no complaints over the viability as it serves the needs of the GAA community ( See McHale Park in Mayo, 42,000 capacity in a town of approximately 11,000 population ). Good for GAA fans, not Ideal for pop concerts.

3. Having the venue located in Central Ulster, would make it stand out as a venue. As in Belfast, Casement will have to compete with 2 other New Modern Stadiums for conferences and Concerts.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 09/01/2015 13:57:07    1681765

How many hundreds of roads are you gonna have to build to connect into this Green field site Gary?

If all the roads into Belfast aren't enough for access to Casement you'll have a lot of building to do at a green field sight in mid Ulster, will also mean private transport is the only real way of getting to and from the game.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13800 - 09/01/2015 14:14:27    1681775

MesAmis
County: Dublin
Posts: 8135

1681720
Jaysus lads if the road network in Belfast won't be able to handle match day traffic then there is literally not another place in the whole of Ulster that could!

If you're using that as an excuse to not have the stadium in Belfast then you clearly have to object to Clones currently and object to any other site in the whole province.

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Anyone unfortunate enough to be travelling to and around Belfast will be able to tell you, traffic is unreal.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/belfast-the-home-of-worst-traffic-jams-in-uk-survey-30323070.html

http://www.irishnews.com/news/traffic-congestion-worse-in-belfast-than-in-london-1358517

That's not really the issue as most match days will be at weekends, though, it could be an issue if weekday concerts are planned.

A city can have the best traffic management around but still come to a stand still if you cram 40K into a stadium with little car parking facilities. The Judge highlighted this, this project needs to address this major problem if it is to go ahead.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 09/01/2015 14:14:30    1681776