Naysayer
County: Antrim
Posts: 1056

1680809
However this is the 21st Century, we are talking the largest stadium in the North of Ireland and all that goes with it. Yes it will be a GAA stadium but those of us who live in the real world realize that there is more to the utilization of a world class stadium than hosting Ulster Championship games. As such this make it is illogical not to put it in what is not only the largest City but also a Primate City.


It's a Provincial Stadium for Ulster GAA, a venue that's ultimate purpose should be to serve the fans of the 9 Ulster Counties who travel and fund GAA in the Province so well.

- I suggested locating the "Provincial" Stadium in a more central location, ensuring the vast majority of Ulster GAA fans will reach the Stadium in a hour or less. Making life a little easier for the people who are the backbone of the GAA in Ulster.

- Your argument is......"there is more to utilization of a world class stadium than hosting Ulster Championship games, making the Primate City of Belfast a better choice". I assume you mean Concerts, Rugby, American football, conferences and corporate events.

If you live in the real world, then those of us living in the matrix should stay put. When I said you had no decent argument to convince me about locating Ulster GAA's Premier Stadium in Belfast, I was 100% correct and you have proved that with the sentence of yours I quoted.

You don't seem to care about Ulster GAA fans or the millions and millions they have poured into Ulster GAA in the last 10+ years, your more concerned with making more money of external revenue streams.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 06/01/2015 20:58:24    1681087

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1864

1680827
GaryMc82 the one valid point I would give you is that you say that those going to the games would find somewhere a little West of Belfast a more central point.

I have said to Gary that the ideological place for something isn't necessary the best place for something in previous posts. Of course a stadium which is equidistant from the extremities of the Province would be ideal for all supporters purely from a travelling to and from point, but when you take a step back and think through how such a stadium would be viable, sustainable etc etc you realise why major stadiums are for the most part in major population centres. The fact that I am from the County in which this development is being planned doesn't in one way affect my judgement as to where a major stadium should be - If I was from Down, Tyrone, Derry or wherever my thinking would be the same. But why let this stop people using the parochial stick when all else fails - keep whacking boys.

Your getting beat with the "Parochial Stick", as the posts clearly show that those most in favour of locating the Stadium in Co Antrim are you Offside_rule( Co Antrim ), bumpernut ( Co Antrim ) and Naysayer ( Co Antrim ). With one Co Down poster also in the mix ( Part of Belfast City is technically part of Co Down if I remember correctly, thus again possibly making that post semi-Parochial. Meaning your strongly in favour of putting the Stadium in your own backyard ( Your County/City ), making you a sound Parochial.


Now explain why a Provincial Stadium located in a central location less than an hour from Belfast would not be viable or sustainable? I want to hear why a Stadium in West Belfast in more viable and Sustainable than say Omagh?

Keep in mind this Stadium will not be that much bigger than Clones or Healy Park, and they seemed to have got by just fine in their respective locations.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 06/01/2015 21:15:48    1681092

Gary Mc82 I think you should read posts other than your own before comment. At no stage did I ever voice support for Casement Park II, all I did was commment on where we are at now in regards to it (see below).

Just because most of South Belfast is in Down (best part of the city of course ;-) )doesnt mean we agree all the time with Antrim or its supporters, indeed we dont most of the time.
As Ive said before, the Antrim lads on here and I are dealing with reality and the present - you are dealing with what you would like to see happening in the future and that like this forum posting, has run its course

Tut tut Gary Mc82 - my posts are as equally valid on this topic as much as yours - lets just leave it at that.
Im neither for or against Casement II, I just commenting on the situation as it stand presently.

Tim_Burr (Down) - Posts: 460 - 07/01/2015 08:56:43    1681114

Jaysus Gary - Considering you have always been one of the best contributors to this board with well reasoned posts, since you appeared, I am baffled that you can't accept the decision about the money being spent on Casement.

As has been said, it is irrelevant what any of us on Hoganstand think about it. It is going ahead for political reasons, which rightly or wrongly is the simple fact of the matter.

I wouldn't blame you if you lead a campaign to fight for a more central site for the stadium but it would be a waste of energy in my opinion.

I'm from Down by the way - doesn't mean a thing because I very rarely attend inter-county games these days, apart from the poorly attended Ulster Hurling finals which will hopefully be played somewhere else from now on.

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1558 - 07/01/2015 09:22:45    1681116

GaryMc82 you are still not getting me on this one.

I agree that the best place for the Stadium in terms of GAA alone would be a more central point.

I do think that ideally GAA supporters should come first.

I am not particularly in favor of this stadium being in Antrim as a ground that holds 10-15k would have a better chance of providing an atmospheric home ground for Antrim to play at.

But all of the above points are ideological and I am well enough informed to realise that Casement is almost certainly going ahead.

I also realise that there is more to a modern stadium in terms of sustainability etc etc etc than just filling it up for a few big games every year.

I have listed a number of factors since this thread has started and I am not bothered to start repeating them but it is all on this thread.

Cant you see that from an ideological point of view I probably agree with you but from a realistic point of view I do not?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 07/01/2015 09:44:09    1681121

Your getting beat with the "Parochial Stick", as the posts clearly show that those most in favour of locating the Stadium in Co Antrim are you Offside_rule( Co Antrim ), bumpernut ( Co Antrim ) and Naysayer ( Co Antrim ). With one Co Down poster also in the mix ( Part of Belfast City is technically part of Co Down if I remember correctly, thus again possibly making that post semi-Parochial. Meaning your strongly in favour of putting the Stadium in your own backyard ( Your County/City ), making you a sound Parochial.


Now explain why a Provincial Stadium located in a central location less than an hour from Belfast would not be viable or sustainable? I want to hear why a Stadium in West Belfast in more viable and Sustainable than say Omagh?

Keep in mind this Stadium will not be that much bigger than Clones or Healy Park, and they seemed to have got by just fine in their respective locations.

Of course everyone in Monaghan agreeing with you Gary are doing so on a non-parochial basis!

Out of curiosity Gary where do you reside, is it South Derry per chance?

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 07/01/2015 10:43:36    1681142

Your getting beat with the "Parochial Stick", as the posts clearly show that those most in favour of locating the Stadium in Co Antrim are you Offside_rule( Co Antrim ), bumpernut ( Co Antrim ) and Naysayer ( Co Antrim ). With one Co Down poster also in the mix ( Part of Belfast City is technically part of Co Down if I remember correctly, thus again possibly making that post semi-Parochial. Meaning your strongly in favour of putting the Stadium in your own backyard ( Your County/City ), making you a sound Parochial.


Now explain why a Provincial Stadium located in a central location less than an hour from Belfast would not be viable or sustainable? I want to hear why a Stadium in West Belfast in more viable and Sustainable than say Omagh?

Keep in mind this Stadium will not be that much bigger than Clones or Healy Park, and they seemed to have got by just fine in their respective locations.

Where to start. Right, as I have said on this topic a good few pages back, I couldn't give a fiddlers if Antrim have the home of Ulster GAA and to be honest we are the only ones who are suffering at the moment because of the decision by Ulster GAA to take the money and redevelop Casement Park. What I want is for us to have our home County games back in our home County grounds. You go on Parochial this and Parochial that but, at the risk of repeating myself again (though if needs must), if I was being Parochial in my thinking I would be happy that this is dragging on and I get to see my County playing at a ground which is a short travel from home for longer rather than having over an hours drive to get to Casement. You can't seem to separate rational thinking with bias, favourtism or being Parochial and thats not something I can help you with or advise you on.

But on your question about having it centrally located in Omagh for example. Firstly, using the Casement stadium as a benchmarh regarding costs, of the £77m quoted figure to build (which in real terms when finihed could be £90m+) £61.4m of that was not GAA money. Keeping in mind that this money is Casement only money if you like, where do Ulster GAA get this money from? You then have additional costs which would be needed for infrastructure upgrades as unlike Casement which sits beside the M1, Healy park is off a B class road so doesn't take Einstein to work out that they couldn't keep the roads as they are as after all, this is the only network in to Omagh as there are no train services, air services etc. You are then talking a good few million pounds more on that front. So lets imagine that all this money was available and the stadium is built - what all then are you going to put on, outside the handful of Ulster Championship games and maybe the odd AI series one, to make sure there is enough revenue coming in to keep the place running? I know the Tyrone folk like to don the boots and slap a few thighs but I think the Garth Brooks boat has sailed and a few Hugo D concerts organised isn't going to keep the lights on. Its all well and good getting a stadium built but you need to make sure you have a business plan running behind it to make sure it is fully utilised and can pay for itself and I'm afraid I don't see Omagh or the likes having the same capability to do this as the major population centre does.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 07/01/2015 11:54:49    1681160

bumpernut
County: Antrim
Posts: 731

1681142 Of course everyone in Monaghan agreeing with you Gary are doing so on a non-parochial basis!

Out of curiosity Gary where do you reside, is it South Derry per chance?

Cityside of Derry City, quite close to the Donegal border and only 10-15 mins from the Tyrone border.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 07/01/2015 12:44:31    1681175

Suas Sios
County: All
Posts: 1125

1681116
Jaysus Gary - Considering you have always been one of the best contributors to this board with well reasoned posts, since you appeared, I am baffled that you can't accept the decision about the money being spent on Casement.

As has been said, it is irrelevant what any of us on Hoganstand think about it. It is going ahead for political reasons, which rightly or wrongly is the simple fact of the matter.

I wouldn't blame you if you lead a campaign to fight for a more central site for the stadium but it would be a waste of energy in my opinion.


I don't like how the GAA has been manipulated into this by the lure of money.

How many millions have the GAA and particularly the Ulster GAA gained from gate receipts and merchandise bought by supporters who attend games over the past 10-20 years? I suspect substantially more than the money given by the British to build an additional Rugby Stadium in Belfast. Yet who do the GAA favor? They bend to the British Government, and then screw the fans in favor of the single major yet overall lesser long term contributor.

Nothing is Irrelevant, many great feats and Indeed movements have began life in minor debates or discussions upon which people realized there was a greater consensus. We are discussing a Ulster GAA Stadium plan which was rejected in the planning court, to which those residents who reside near the Stadium strongly object to it.

It is not too late, the GAA have just got away lightly under the radar so far in terms of how they sold out.

Build a GAA Provincial Stadium for the good of the Whole Province, not for the good of the Rugby World Cup!!!!

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 07/01/2015 13:06:38    1681184

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1865

1681160

MY QUESTION AGAIN
Explain why a Provincial Stadium located in a central location alongside a dual carriageway less than an hour from Belfast would not be viable or sustainable? I want to hear why a Stadium in West Belfast in more viable and sustainable than say Omagh?

INFORMATION TO CONSIDER BEFORE ANSWERING
33,000 GAA fans can travel to and from Clones, and we manage.
20-24,000 GAA fans can enter Healy Park in Omagh, and we manage.
20,000 GAA fans can travel to Breffni park, and we manage just fine.
20,000 GAA fans can travel to Celtic Park in Derry, and we manage.
The vast majority of GAA fans travel by car or bus to every game, and a small percentage of fans ever stay overnight.

With the construction of the new A5 Dual carriageway still scheduled to go ahead, this will open up the entire Northwest. This will be even better for Donegal if the Letterkenny to Strabane link goes ahead too ( Sadly not so likely in near future at least ). Travel to and from such a Stadium would be superb from all parts of Ulster.

And the money can come from the GAA, Irish/British Government and National Lottery bodies. Ulster GAA lacks major capacity Stadiums like the other 3 Provinces despite being the 2nd most populated province, so I feel there would be room for a Strong argument.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 07/01/2015 13:34:05    1681192

When is this A5 going ahead Gary? Has the money for it not already been redirected? Where is the dual carriageway that runs beside Healy Park? What events or uses is this stadium going to be put to (beyond the GAA games) that will be an absolute must for year to year running costs of such a stadium - or do you think that running a few GAA games a year will generate enough to keep the doors open? As for your 'information to consider before answering' - its not much of an arguement saying 'we manage' - lots of people complain every year about the journey to and from Clones and the time it takes and the queues etc. I have already shown that Casement is as accessible if not more so for most Counties in Ulster than Clones is so there will be no need to just 'manage' any more. Its the 21st Century and we don't need to just be able to manage. However, while you again concentrate on the travel aspect (which I don't think anyone is arguing a centrally located stadium would be easier to get to) you are brushing over the important aspects such as money saying it can come from the GAA - you are living in cloud cuckoo land man. If you think the GAA have £90m odd to throw at a new stadium and the arguement that the other Provinces have decent stadiums so we deserve one will be good enough then I don't know.

So, leaving the fact that a central stadium would have an advantage over one on the extremities aside from a travelling perspective for a lot of people, what other advantages do you believe an Omagh would have over Belfast or what would give an Omagh the edge?

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 07/01/2015 14:42:03    1681217

Gary I have taken this from the Ulster Council Website when planning permission was agreed in December 2013.

Have a read of Páraic Duffy's statement in particular the bit i have highlighted.

It was needed by Ulster GAA, Antrim GAA and equally as important Belfast GAA.

The Ulster Council of the GAA today welcomed the announcement by the Environment Minister Mark H Durkan MLA that he has granted planning approval for the Casement Park redevelopment project. The complete rebuild on the current site will see the stadium's current capacity increased from over 32,500 mainly standing terracing to a 38,000 all seater which will result in a new state of the art premier provincial GAA stadium in Belfast. Agreement has also been reached between DCAL and the GAA on the project Funding Agreement.

Tom Daly, Former Ulster GAA President who is the Chairman of the Casement Park Project Board and Ulster GAA Project SRO welcomed the announcement:
"Today's announcement by Minister Durkan represents another significant milestone in the ongoing development process. After 20 months of consultation and engagement we now have the green light to proceed. I would like to thank the Minister and DOE Planning for their work over the past six months. I would also like to thank our design team Mott McDonald and our planning consultants RPS; Our Stadium Project Board and our hard working Stadium Executive Team who have worked hard to deliver this result. We now look forward to progressing the other work streams around the stadium with a view to being on site by Spring 2014 and commissioning the new stadium for the 2016 Ulster GAA Championship and Antrim GAA Championship season. The young gaels of Antrim's GAA Clubs will have a new home which will compare favourably to anything available to sports people the world over. I am also pleased that agreement has been reached around the project funding agreement which brings complete certainty around the project budget."

Ulster GAA President Martin McAviney commented:
"I want to congratulate the Stadium Project Board under the leadership of Tom Daly and Danny Murphy for their work in achieving this significant milestone in the ongoing Casement Park development project. This is a proud day for Ulster GAA I want to thank the Project Board and the Stadium Executive Team for their hard work that has delivered a significant result for the entire GAA. I want to thank the Environment Minister Mark H Durkan MLA and his officials for their co-operation over the last six months and I want to also thank Minister Carál Ni Chulín MLA and her officials at DCAL including Programme Director Noel Molloy for their investment and commitment to this project."

Páraic Duffy GAA Director General commented:
"Today's announcement in relation to Casement Park is a "red letter" day for the GAA in Ulster and indeed Ireland. The GAA's Central Council decided to invest significant partnership funds of £15 million in the project to meet the strategic stadium needs of Ulster GAA who as the governing body of the GAA in the Province are the project promoters. All the members of the Project Board led by Tom Daly and Danny Murphy and the Ulster GAA Executive team deserve great credit for their work. From the outset of this project we have operated a tripartite arrangement that involves the GAA Central Council, Ulster GAA and Antrim GAA and I would highlight that in addition to providing the strategic needs of Ulster GAA, the stadium will serve as a fantastic facility for Antrim GAA and act as a driver for our games in Ireland's second city and the entire country."

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 07/01/2015 15:57:06    1681249

In a utopian world the stadium would be placed in the area where it would be most used and accessibility would tow in line.

However this affair is political and therefore must be treated as such in order to have a realistic debate.

Granted Ulsters GAA heartland is not in East Ulster but building a large stadium in the provincial capital is not an idea borne out of left field either.

The GAA are hardly going to question the logistics of what will be a heavily subsidised stadium nor can they be realistically expected to.

As time goes by this island is becoming more and more east coast centric and I'd be of the opinion that the logistical viability of Belfast will only improve whereas the same cannot be said of other parts of Ulster . There are exceptions of course and as I've already argued the Omagh area would too be an ideal location.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 07/01/2015 16:43:57    1681272

Offside_rule

Answer my question, which is only asking for clarity on one of your earlier statements. I'm sure you could answer this in less than 30 words, but none of your recent posts have actually answered it.

MY QUESTION AGAIN
Explain why a Provincial Stadium located in a central location alongside a dual carriageway less than an hour from Belfast would not be viable or sustainable? I want to hear why a Stadium in West Belfast in more viable and sustainable than say Omagh?

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 08/01/2015 17:58:47    1681570

Where is this location and dual carriageway? I have answered plenty of your questions directly and indirectly on this topic and others concerning Casement. Can you address the questions I have put to you?

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 08/01/2015 20:31:12    1681614

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1869

1681614
Where is this location and dual carriageway? I have answered plenty of your questions directly and indirectly on this topic and others concerning Casement. Can you address the questions I have put to you?

I suggested a Green field site, now It could be any Green field site between Omagh and Ballygawley. Either at or nearby Tyrone's superb Center of Excellence.

The A5 dual carriageway is still going ahead despite deliberate delays having been created by Farmers who basically want more money per acre, While the Southern section between Monaghan and Dublin was scrapped along with a proposed Letterkenny Link to the A5 at Strabane due to Insufficient funds down south. However the Irish Government did still commit £400 million towards the Northern A5 Project which seems to have ensured it will go ahead south of Omagh, with the North of Omagh apparently delayed due to an environmental report.

However...In the case of the A5 being somehow cancelled or project completely abandoned, the general green field general location i have suggested, still gives superb access to people travelling from Belfast, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan, Fermanagh and most of Donegal in under an hour, thanks to its close proximity to the two Ballygawley Roundabouts and of course Aughnacloy.

Alternatively if that was a non-starter, Healy park could potentially be expanded from 26,000 to 36-38,000 at a much lower cost than Casement, as it currently has an excellent main stand and has space around it for further development and parking.

Now I think I have answered your question directly and clearly as possible in a "forum/sentence" type scenario ( Without producing satellite Images and planning law etc ), Now I will ask you to clarify what i have asked twice before.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 08/01/2015 21:11:14    1681625

My bad.........I Initially read that Healy Park in Omagh was currently 26,000 capacity, I have since noted it has a current ticketed capacity of 18,500.

This may exaggerated capacity may have been upon completion of phase 2 redevelopment, which was to see £5 million spent on building an additional covered/Seated stand and both goal end terraces extended.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 08/01/2015 21:23:54    1681630

Lets get some clarity here. Casement is in need of a major redevelopment but not whay the gaa are proposing. A 20000 seater stadium is what is needed here, a stadium that suits Antrim gaa. Antrim dont need a big white elephant on the edge of the city. Ulster gaa dont need another white elephant that has major problems with road networks around it. Clones or a greenfield site around Ballygaley is the ideal option. Clones for all its faults is still a wounderful place. Kieth Duggans piece about Clones and Ulster final day in the Irish times last July said it all. Read it!!

rossie72 (Roscommon) - Posts: 63 - 08/01/2015 21:34:23    1681633

Gary - I have answered that question i.e. why a major population centre is more viable than a rural green field site in many posts. I have also highlighted the problems facing a green field site in relation to generating funds beyond what the GAA games will bring in or why somehwere like Belfast has an advantage over them. But, as these have obviously escaped you I will brielfy list them again:

Belfast has the road, rail and air networks all already in place with a Motorway running so close to Casement that if you had a strong enough kick you'd be nearly able to land the ball on the M1.
All major business and companies are located in and around Belfast - making the facilities planned for the stadium viable on a daily basis - akin to Croke Park. You can't say that a rural location would have the same draw for companies who want to organise training days, conferences etc.
Belfast is already within 1.5 hrs from most of the Province as it is served by 2 motorways - M1 from the South/West and M2 from the North.
A green field stadium won't have hotels, restaurants, bars, shops etc around it so you are making it a stadium for a match experience only. We hear people talking about the occasion that is Clones because of all the wee bars etc - you won't have this in a greenfield site but instead people will arrive for throw-in and then leave again leaving it less of an experience. People say that Casement doesn't have this but it has pubs, restaurants etc which no doubt will be modernised or upgraded too. Up until now there was no need as for the whole Casement wasn't getting any big matches. But with the new stadium it will bring a new lease of life to the surrounding area - take Celtic Park/Parkhead as an example. The area in which it is located is a traditionally economically disadvantaged area, yet you go over there on match day and the experience is great if you head in to the pubs in the surrounding areas. The whole place comes alive.
Concerts and similar events - again, you have nothing to offer the people who go to the likes of Dublin for concerts and make a weekend out of it - stay in hotels, eat in restaurants, go to bars. If you have a rural stadium again you can only offer the concert. Plus, a city stadium to play in would be more appealing for the artist themselves - how many major concerts in Ireland do you see being held in stadiums outside Dublin?

Now, you still haven't answered what advantages (beyond proximity to counties) a green field site has over the likes of Belfast? With regards to the A5 upgrade - they have been talking about such an upgrade for as long as I can remember - a few decades ago they were talking about the western corridor running North to South and what stage has it got to or when is it going to be completed? You are talking about it like it is going to be built this year or next - its not and God knows when it will actually go ahead. We are already in to year 8 from the latest plans were submitted in 2007 and nothing yet. Plus you are saying it is farmers holding it up but again this isn't even correct as it was the EUs Habitats Directive was the main fly in the ointment due to the amount of bogland etc which was going to be destroyed in the upgrade. Plus there is the financial side of the upgrade - £70m has already been spent and not a piece of sod turned. There is a dilema now (as of late 2014) as to whether they cancel it and pour this money down the drain or do they continue knowing that to even get to Stage 2 of the 3 stage upgrade is going to cost £330m which isn't available in the rpesent climate. Do we go on ahead and build this stadium and then wait for the road upgrade and in the meantime have another Clones with regards traffic management/problems?

As I say - greenfield sites though ideological have too many potential problems or unanswered questions to make them viable.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 09/01/2015 09:06:34    1681661

Rossie - you won't have too many Antrim Gaels disagreeing with you. What people are forgetting is that we didn't ask for this and would have been quite happy to get an upgrade to Casement which would suit our needs. Fact is this was a Political agreement which we Gaels had no say in but at the same time we are not that naive that we are going to turn our noses up at it.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 09/01/2015 09:15:04    1681663