15/10/2014 20:10:05
mediaman
This 'choke tackle' incident goes to the nub of what this thread is about, the perception that RTE favours some sports over others. The RTE report of the original 'choke tackle' incident and the subsequent ban gave absolutely no hint of the real seriousness of what happened in Ravenhill. The RTE language was bland and unemotional unlike their report on violence in the Armagh Cavan game in this year's USFC which was full of emotional language such as 'violent scenes', 'brawl', 'marred', 'fighting', player 'pictured in a sling'. Any journalist worth his salt knows how to do this. You just throw in reams of negative words and the reader reacts accordingly. RTE simply don't do this in their rugby reports as the Ulster game proves. They never once used the term 'choke tackle', which was first used by the Glasgow coach. RTE needs to be challenged on these not so subtle attempts to imply that one sport is superior to another. This is not accidental. Why don't you challenge RTE then?
Do you know what a choke tackle is as from reading this thread I think you haven't a notion of what a choke tackle is.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 15/10/2014 21:42:11    1664161

Ormo I think most posters will know that a choke tackle is a term for a particular tactic in rugby that has no relation with the ability of an opposition player to breath. However, on this occasion the fact that the victim lost consciousness suggests that the tackle did involve the actual choking of an opponent. It is a scandalous act and should not be downplayed or made light of, not that you were doing this. It seems a little inaccurate for RTE to say the player has been banned for a dangerous tackle, there is no type of tackle in the game that could result in a player losing consciousness due to his breathing being restricted as appears to have happened here.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 15/10/2014 21:59:10    1664169

15/10/2014 21:59:10
Soma
Ormo I think most posters will know that a choke tackle is a term for a particular tactic in rugby that has no relation with the ability of an opposition player to breath. However, on this occasion the fact that the victim lost consciousness suggests that the tackle did involve the actual choking of an opponent. It is a scandalous act and should not be downplayed or made light of, not that you were doing this. It seems a little inaccurate for RTE to say the player has been banned for a dangerous tackle, there is no type of tackle in the game that could result in a player losing consciousness due to his breathing being restricted as appears to have happened here. Soma please call me Ormond as it makes things much easier for everyone. I wont whinge then....
A choke tackle is actually not known by several people here considering earlier posts...
Its not inaccurate for RTE to say the player was banned for a dangerous tackle as that's what occurred - a dangerous attempt at a choke tackle that went wrong -

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 16/10/2014 12:42:01    1664234

Fair enough Ormo, I can see your and RTE's point of view but in my opinion the act moved beyond being a tackle, dangerous or otherwise, the moment the Glasgow player lost consciousness. The pressure on Bennetts windpipe must have lasted for quite a while for the situation to end up as serious as it did, I don't believe there is any act that can even be vaguely be described as a tackle in the game of rugby that can result in a player being choked unconscious. If a hurler is sent off after cowardly striking an opponent with his hurl it is generally reported as 'striking' rather than a dangerous tackle, I would have thought this rugby incident would have been reported with similar accuracy.
In any case, getting back to RTE, did you find it strange that there was no mention of this suspension at all on RTE Radio 1 sports news at 6 last night. Similarly, the Irish Independent online appears to carry no mention of the suspension today - it is almost as if it never happened. I believe it is one of the most serious incidents to occur on a rugby field in quite a while, the non-reporting of it is difficult to understand.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/10/2014 13:48:11    1664251

16/10/2014 13:48:11 Soma
Fair enough Ormo, I can see your and RTE's point of view but in my opinion the act moved beyond being a tackle, dangerous or otherwise, the moment the Glasgow player lost consciousness. The pressure on Bennetts windpipe must have lasted for quite a while for the situation to end up as serious as it did, I don't believe there is any act that can even be vaguely be described as a tackle in the game of rugby that can result in a player being choked unconscious. If a hurler is sent off after cowardly striking an opponent with his hurl it is generally reported as 'striking' rather than a dangerous tackle, I would have thought this rugby incident would have been reported with similar accuracy.
In any case, getting back to RTE, did you find it strange that there was no mention of this suspension at all on RTE Radio 1 sports news at 6 last night. Similarly, the Irish Independent online appears to carry no mention of the suspension today - it is almost as if it never happened. I believe it is one of the most serious incidents to occur on a rugby field in quite a while, the non-reporting of it is difficult to understand. Soma its Ormond. You preach to me about my attitude at times so why cant you call me Ormond. Is that too difficult a task for you?
A choke tackle is the creation of a maul from open play.
link
The player was in a maul created from open play(that is what a choke tackle is) and the pressure etc from players joining the tackle could have created a situation where the player choked
No I didn't find it strange there was no mention on the news. It was reported online in various sectors and it was an accident. The player was tackled legally and something bad occured

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 16/10/2014 15:25:27    1664313

Ormo IF it was an accident, IF the player was tackled legally and something bad happened accidentally why then the 3 week suspension? You yourself said just yesterday you believed the suspension to be far too lenient. It seems to me you now believe that the incident was just an unfortunate accident caused by the pressure of bodies in a maul, but you still want O'Connor suspended for a long time. I don't believe there is any way the tackler could not have known that he was choking his opponent for quite a length of time, and it seems the disciplinary panel agree with me on this hence the suspension, yet it does not even get a mention on the sports news. Had the maul stayed up for another short while the fallout from this could have been very tragic, yet it seems it is being swept under the carpet. This non-reporting seem to be one of the joys of a sporting body lobbying the media, something you say does happen, but surely there is a wider interest in reporting this story?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/10/2014 15:38:46    1664320

16/10/2014 15:38:46 Soma
Ormo IF it was an accident, IF the player was tackled legally and something bad happened accidentally why then the 3 week suspension? You yourself said just yesterday you believed the suspension to be far too lenient. It seems to me you now believe that the incident was just an unfortunate accident caused by the pressure of bodies in a maul, but you still want O'Connor suspended for a long time. I don't believe there is any way the tackler could not have known that he was choking his opponent for quite a length of time, and it seems the disciplinary panel agree with me on this hence the suspension, yet it does not even get a mention on the sports news. Had the maul stayed up for another short while the fallout from this could have been very tragic, yet it seems it is being swept under the carpet. This non-reporting seem to be one of the joys of a sporting body lobbying the media, something you say does happen, but surely there is a wider interest in reporting this story? Because you have a duty of care and while legal a punishment was fair.
It was an accident and the player didn't intend to hurt the injured party but a punishment was needed and was too lenient
If you want to know why the issue wasn't covered in the media why don't you tweet/email/phone and find out from rugby journalists etc
If you think there is a wider interest in covering this story why don't you contact people in the media and ask why are they not covering this story in greater detail?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 16/10/2014 16:09:28    1664336

It certainly wasn't legal Ormo, as one of Irelands great refereeing white hopes you should know that it is illegal to tackle above the shoulders - I believe the disciplinary commission found that the Ulster player had a hold of Bennett around his neck. I can provide a link for the anatomy of the human body to show the neck is located above shoulder height should you so wish.
As for contacting RTE, due to my location I am not a taxpayer and so do not have the right to pose any questions to them. However I am a GAA member so am happy to comment on anything relating to our games. If you wish, I am more than happy for you to contact RTE as a resident of Ireland to enquire further on peculiar editorial decisions. I have seen you whinging in this very thread about the lack of coverage of provincial games, you could include this in the letter as well maybe?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/10/2014 16:26:03    1664350

ormondbannerman
"The player was tackled legally and something bad occured"

That's quite an assumption.

This from the Setanta site:
The Ulster lock was cited for an alleged action contrary to Law 10.4 (e), which pertains to dangerous tackling and 10.4(m), which deals with acts contrary to good sportsmanship

"Law 10.4(e): A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. A player must not tackle (or try to tackle) an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. A tackle around the opponent's neck or head is dangerous play."

He was found to have made a dangerous tackle and that's it, nothing about it being an accidental carry over from a legal tackle. Worse though is the implication was that the player had his breathing deliberately restricted (i.e. literally choked). (I think most people here have watched an Irish rugby game some time in the last few years so know what a legal "choke" tackle is.)

However, the main point, which you for some reason seem to be muddying, is that RTE didn't give this any coverage at the time it was being carried by other news outlets when, as we all know, if something similar had occurred in a GAA match we'd be hearing about it - forever. And that is the problem with RTE.

rcarragh (Dublin) - Posts: 305 - 16/10/2014 16:48:49    1664361

16/10/2014 16:26:03
Soma
It certainly wasn't legal Ormo, as one of Irelands great refereeing white hopes you should know that it is illegal to tackle above the shoulders - I believe the disciplinary commission found that the Ulster player had a hold of Bennett around his neck. I can provide a link for the anatomy of the human body to show the neck is located above shoulder height should you so wish.
As for contacting RTE, due to my location I am not a taxpayer and so do not have the right to pose any questions to them. However I am a GAA member so am happy to comment on anything relating to our games. If you wish, I am more than happy for you to contact RTE as a resident of Ireland to enquire further on peculiar editorial decisions. I have seen you whinging in this very thread about the lack of coverage of provincial games, you could include this in the letter as well maybe? Very hypocritical post Soma you so often criticise me for my posts yet you talk down to me very arrogantly, you say my name wrong deliberately when I have politely asked you to spell it correctly
If you have such issues with RTE you could still complain to them. You are irish, I assume you use their services to watch programming on rte player/online when you have to so you are still a valid customer.
I don't need to contact RTE as but you clearly do considering some of the complaints you have posted about in the past

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 16/10/2014 17:16:21    1664373

He didn't tackle him above the shoulders
Simply laughable Ormo. Are you saying that the Glasgow players neck is below his shoulders, or that he was choked and lost consciousness due to pressure placed on his body below the shoulders?. Why did the Glasgow management suggest he lost consciousness due to being choked around the neck? Why were you calling for a 6 week ban yesterday if all O'Connor done was tackled him below the shoulders - there is no possible way in a maul a tackler could know this would lead to the opponent going unconscious. This incident has been swept under the carpet by everyone but we can be satisfied that there was pressure put around the players neck resulting in him being unable to breath and losing consciousness. The images from the incident available on youtube are dreadful but there can be no doubt there was an arm placed around his neck with great force.
Why would I contact RTE when I have no complaints about their coverage or certainly at least no complaints that need me to send in a letter/email. You and others here do have such complaints. You may not be resident in Ireland but that doesn't rule you out of watching RTE/having issues with their coverage. So why don't you make an issue with RTE of their supposed poor or biased ooverage?
I do watch and listen to RTE but it is a state broadcaster - its responsibilities are to the residents of Ireland and not to anyone outside the state. As I am not a taxpayer I do not believe I am entitled to have RTE resources responding to my correspondence. However just this week I have seen you whinge about provincial rugby coverage, yet nobody demands that you write to RTE instead of posting here. Looks like double standards you are using there.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/10/2014 17:35:01    1664378

16/10/2014 16:48:49 rcarragh
ormondbannerman
"The player was tackled legally and something bad occured"
That's quite an assumption.
This from the Setanta site:
The Ulster lock was cited for an alleged action contrary to Law 10.4 (e), which pertains to dangerous tackling and 10.4(m), which deals with acts contrary to good sportsmanship
"Law 10.4(e): A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. A player must not tackle (or try to tackle) an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. A tackle around the opponent's neck or head is dangerous play."
He was found to have made a dangerous tackle and that's it, nothing about it being an accidental carry over from a legal tackle. Worse though is the implication was that the player had his breathing deliberately restricted (i.e. literally choked). (I think most people here have watched an Irish rugby game some time in the last few years so know what a legal "choke" tackle is.)
However, the main point, which you for some reason seem to be muddying, is that RTE didn't give this any coverage at the time it was being carried by other news outlets when, as we all know, if something similar had occurred in a GAA match we'd be hearing about it - forever. And that is the problem with RTE. It can be judged by some as legal tackle others not legal. Its borderline and in my opinion it was legal hit.
Why don't you and others here contact RTE as to why it was not covered in the detail you think it should have been.
And you are making big assumptions on RTE with nothing to back it up

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 16/10/2014 17:46:33    1664382

16/10/2014 17:35:01 Soma
ormond
He didn't tackle him above the shoulders
Simply laughable Ormo. Are you saying that the Glasgow players neck is below his shoulders, or that he was choked and lost consciousness due to pressure placed on his body below the shoulders?. Why did the Glasgow management suggest he lost consciousness due to being choked around the neck? Why were you calling for a 6 week ban yesterday if all O'Connor done was tackled him below the shoulders - there is no possible way in a maul a tackler could know this would lead to the opponent going unconscious. This incident has been swept under the carpet by everyone but we can be satisfied that there was pressure put around the players neck resulting in him being unable to breath and losing consciousness. The images from the incident available on youtube are dreadful but there can be no doubt there was an arm placed around his neck with great force.
Soma what is laughable is your continual trolling of my name
I give up trying to debate with you when you refuse to say my name correctly
Ormond: Why would I contact RTE when I have no complaints about their coverage or certainly at least no complaints that need me to send in a letter/email. You and others here do have such complaints. You may not be resident in Ireland but that doesn't rule you out of watching RTE/having issues with their coverage. So why don't you make an issue with RTE of their supposed poor or biased ooverage?
I do watch and listen to RTE but it is a state broadcaster - its responsibilities are to the residents of Ireland and not to anyone outside the state. As I am not a taxpayer I do not believe I am entitled to have RTE resources responding to my correspondence. However just this week I have seen you whinge about provincial rugby coverage, yet nobody demands that you write to RTE instead of posting here. Looks like double standards you are using there.

But you are Irish and use their services and have issues with the quality of the service you receive does that not qualify you to receive feedback on complaints you have with the quality of the service RTE provide and that you avail of at times.
No double standards at all from me and if I have something I want to complain about to RTE I will do so

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 16/10/2014 17:51:03    1664385

Soma can you post a link where " the disciplinary commission found that the Ulster player had a hold of Bennett around his neck" . I haven't seen the incident

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4663 - 16/10/2014 18:40:04    1664406

That is not as easy as you might think monkey, what with much of the media ignoring the matter and all. However this link might be of some use to you.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/rugby/pro12-rugby-three-week-suspension-for-ulster-lock-alan-o-connor-1-6359484

Maybe there is a way of affecting an opponents breathing to such an extent that he loses consciousness without putting pressure on the players neck - I have never heard of such a happening though. The fact that the disciplinary committee considered this a mid-range issue suggests it was no accident of circumstance as some seem to claim.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/10/2014 19:24:21    1664428

That link doesn't mention anything about " the disciplinary commission found that the Ulster player had a hold of Bennett around his neck" . If this wasn't reported in the media how do you know this?

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4663 - 16/10/2014 19:23:28    1664466

Ah monkey apologies about that, I thought you were interested in a meaningful discussion. That quote you have used managed to leave out the first 2 words which are quite important, I wonder why you choose to do that? Anyway, here it is in full "I believe the disciplinary commission found that the Ulster player had a hold of Bennett around his neck". I would suggest any reasonable person, having read the charges, the injury suffered, and the suspension dished out, would have to conclude similarly, but sadly on here it is difficult to find a reasonable person on rugby matters. Have you another theory on how a player can be choked to such an extent he loses consciousness, without force being put on his neck? Maybe the lock forward pinched Bennetts nose with one hand and covered his mouth with the other? As the media appear to have largely ignored this it is unlikely we will ever know for sure.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/10/2014 20:32:17    1664508

So you made it up..

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4663 - 16/10/2014 20:40:33    1664512

You are struggling here monkey with what is a simple matter. I can not prove to you that they determined this, but I can present the evidence to you and let you make your own mind up. I looked at the evidence and 'I believe' this is the conclusion they came to, you may believe they came to a different conclusion. Its not 'making things up', its simply a belief based on evidence. Do you disagree that this is the conclusion they came to? I was reading a rugby article today by an Irish journalist where he described Danny Cipriani, a very decent lad who just happens to be very talented and dates models, a "curfew breaking chav" and wondering how he can get paid for producing such rubbish - after debating rugby issues on here I am beginning to understand.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/10/2014 20:52:29    1664514

Now that the suspension has been handed down most media sites have it. I think this is not just an RTE issue, the media in general ignore dangerous incidents in other sports while the GAA is constantly under the spotlight. It is unfair and its helping other sports bury their heads in the sand over the dangers in their sport and how they are dealing with it. Seriously if a GAA player had tackled another player illegally and the player ended up unconscious and that player only got a three match ban - there would be uproar.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 2033 - 17/10/2014 14:40:16    1664705