Don't see the connection johncarter, elitism has nothing to do with conservatism, not in Ireland anyway

flack (Dublin) - Posts: 1055 - 30/08/2014 19:00:14    1644677

Im just saying that if Ormo is going to slag off the GAA for fostering conservatism (though I dont think it has) people will also argue that rugby has fostered elitism.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 30/08/2014 19:05:23    1644686

crowd trouble at the end. The media will prob focus on that now.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 30/08/2014 19:22:10    1644699

The IRFU is among the most conservative groups in Ireland. For almost 100 years it imposed a draconian ban on its players playing Rugby League. Irish Rugby Union international Ken Goodall was ostracised for playing Rugby League. Banned for life he was made unwelcome in any Rugby Union club anywhere in Ireland. Welsh international Fred Perrett was removed from a list of WW1 vets for playing rugby league. The ban was in place until 1995. The IRFU was equally conservative in welcoming the apartheid supporting South Afica tour of 1970 and in going to South Africa against all advice in 1981 to support the most racist, conservative regime in the world. The GAA looks very progressive by comparison.

mediaman (Antrim) - Posts: 355 - 30/08/2014 20:39:49    1644838

Plenty of black/asian kids playing GAA , and Donal Og cusack is one of our most respected analysts. Gaa shouldnt be singled out as being conservative.
A couple fans behaved badly today, but if fans were allowed onto the pitch after premier league games a ref would have been killed by now.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 30/08/2014 20:55:44    1644864

30/08/2014 19:05:23
joncarter
Im just saying that if Ormo is going to slag off the GAA for fostering conservatism (though I dont think it has) people will also argue that rugby has fostered elitism. Joncarter why will you not say Ormond. Rugby didn't actually foster elitism. How did it? Look outside south Dublin which is the entire rest of the country and that isn't true and even in south Dublin is less true than it was
Look at Limerick, most of Ulster etc etc
30/08/2014 19:22:10 joncarter
crowd trouble at the end. The media will prob focus on that now. And it does deserve plenty of coverage. Disgracful scenes but it shouldn't take from a good game
30/08/2014 20:39:49 mediaman
The IRFU is among the most conservative groups in Ireland. For almost 100 years it imposed a draconian ban on its players playing Rugby League. Irish Rugby Union international Ken Goodall was ostracised for playing Rugby League. Banned for life he was made unwelcome in any Rugby Union club anywhere in Ireland. Welsh international Fred Perrett was removed from a list of WW1 vets for playing rugby league. The ban was in place until 1995. The IRFU was equally conservative in welcoming the apartheid supporting South Afica tour of 1970 and in going to South Africa against all advice in 1981 to support the most racist, conservative regime in the world. The GAA looks very progressive by comparison. IRFU was conservative. Never have said it wasn't. The ban on players who played rugby league was right. Rugby League was professional and rugby union was amateur. Ban was right in the main as it helped protect rugby unions amateur status.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 30/08/2014 21:01:55    1644873

Ormond I have just read your last post and I truly despair.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6185 - 30/08/2014 21:23:43    1644917

30/08/2014 21:23:43
Greengrass
Ormond I have just read your last post and I truly despair. Why? Explain yourself?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 30/08/2014 21:49:41    1644966

Rugby didn't foster elitism and the "ban" was justified ?? Like I said I despair . The IRFU was not conservative and The GAA was responsible in part for creating a conservative Ireland !!!

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6185 - 31/08/2014 12:19:13    1645108

31/08/2014 12:19:13
Greengrass
Rugby didn't foster elitism and the "ban" was justified ?? Like I said I despair . The IRFU was not conservative and The GAA was responsible in part for creating a conservative Ireland !!! hehehe

You took me completely serious....

Rugby didn't foster elitism. How did it?
GAA has had a much bigger role culturally in this country than any other sporting organisation and certainly did play a role as part of big 3 in creating a conservative ireland

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 31/08/2014 12:57:33    1645131

ormondbannerman
County: Clare
GAA has had a much bigger role culturally in this country than any other sporting organisation and certainly did play a role as part of big 3 in creating a conservative ireland

Ok, I can't not ask (if it keeps getting put out there), what role did the GAA play in CREATING a conservative Ireland? What aim, goal, or aspect, SPECIFIC to the GAA, led to such a creation?

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 31/08/2014 17:09:02    1645252

ormondbannerman
GAA has had a much bigger role culturally in this country than any other sporting organisation and certainly did play a role as part of big 3 in creating a conservative ireland
31/08/2014 17:09:02 Marlon_JD
Ok, I can't not ask (if it keeps getting put out there), what role did the GAA play in CREATING a conservative Ireland? What aim, goal, or aspect, SPECIFIC to the GAA, led to such a creation?
Culturally insular views, banning of those who play foreign sports, ban of those involved in RUC etc, all anti non irish sports.
GAA sides divided by Catholic parish so very much tied into the church. all help to the role in creating conservatism and as gaa members have played such big role in politics and all aspects of life yes they have played a major role in creating a conservative outlook

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 31/08/2014 17:17:42    1645277

ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Culturally insular views, banning of those who play foreign sports, ban of those involved in RUC etc, all anti non irish sports.
GAA sides divided by Catholic parish so very much tied into the church. all help to the role in creating conservatism and as gaa members have played such big role in politics and all aspects of life yes they have played a major role in creating a conservative outlook

Culturally insular? Its an association set up to promote and PRESERVE traditional Irish/Gaelic activities and culture. Thats its reason for being. If it wasn't culturally insular, it wouldn't be doing its job.
As for the bans on forces in the North, I won't comment on the rights and wrongs of that, we don't need to go down that rabbit hole. Lets just say that was done as a reaction to what was happening in the North, and not to foster conservative ideals. It certainly wasn't part of CREATING a conservative state, that ship had already sailed.

As for the ban on foreign sports, regrettable, but not done for the sake of conservatism. That was done, perhaps unwisely, for the sake of conservation, of itself. You yourself just defended Rugby Unions ban on its players playing rugby league for similar reasons.

As for GAA sides being divided by Catholic parish, of course that was going to happen, the Catholic Church was dug so deep into the soil at that stage, that was the most likely geographic unit to use at the time. All organizations in the country where subject to this influence, the GAA could be no different. That motivation didn't come from the GAA, its the one that the GAA were subject too. Unfortunately.

There was a program years ago about the Tailteann Games on TG4, and how they were revived on the formation of the state to re-assert Gaelic traditions and culture in a celebratory way. It showed how the games ultimately perished, due to the conflict between Gaelic culture and Catholic ideals. I'll try and find it online, and if I do I'll post a link to it here. If I remember correctly, it really illustrates how things changed in the early decades of the state, and the perils for any cultural organizations at the time if they didn't adapt to the zeitgeist. I think you'd find it interesting.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 31/08/2014 17:56:51    1645359

ormondbannerman
Culturally insular views, banning of those who play foreign sports, ban of those involved in RUC etc, all anti non irish sports.
GAA sides divided by Catholic parish so very much tied into the church. all help to the role in creating conservatism and as gaa members have played such big role in politics and all aspects of life yes they have played a major role in creating a conservative outlook
31/08/2014 17:56:51 Marlon_JD
Culturally insular? Its an association set up to promote and PRESERVE traditional Irish/Gaelic activities and culture. Thats its reason for being. If it wasn't culturally insular, it wouldn't be doing its job.
As for the bans on forces in the North, I won't comment on the rights and wrongs of that, we don't need to go down that rabbit hole. Lets just say that was done as a reaction to what was happening in the North, and not to foster conservative ideals. It certainly wasn't part of CREATING a conservative state, that ship had already sailed.Yes culturally insular In that it didn't look to a significant proportion of the population and was related very closely to religion. Wont go in anymore to debate on north and police but it was ridiculously conservative
31/08/2014 17:56:51 Marlon_JD
As for the ban on foreign sports, regrettable, but not done for the sake of conservatism. That was done, perhaps unwisely, for the sake of conservation, of itself. You yourself just defended Rugby Unions ban on its players playing rugby league for similar reasons.
As for GAA sides being divided by Catholic parish, of course that was going to happen, the Catholic Church was dug so deep into the soil at that stage, that was the most likely geographic unit to use at the time. All organizations in the country where subject to this influence, the GAA could be no different. That motivation didn't come from the GAA, its the one that the GAA were subject too. Unfortunately.The ban on foreign sports but was a very conservative outlook. Rugby union ban on rugby league was to stop professionalism and keep an amateur outlook and is completely different to the reasons behind banning players who took part in foreign sports which was decision very much anti those not irish/not playing irish sports....
31/08/2014 17:56:51 Marlon_JD
There was a program years ago about the Tailteann Games on TG4, and how they were revived on the formation of the state to re-assert Gaelic traditions and culture in a celebratory way. It showed how the games ultimately perished, due to the conflict between Gaelic culture and Catholic ideals. I'll try and find it online, and if I do I'll post a link to it here. If I remember correctly, it really illustrates how things changed in the early decades of the state, and the perils for any cultural organizations at the time if they didn't adapt to the zeitgeist. I think you'd find it interesting. You don't need to as not that interested in it...

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 31/08/2014 18:11:03    1645380

Not trying to be snotty, but not much of a counter argument there Ormond, just saying 'no, its ridiculously conservative', regardless of the motivations I've pointed out, isn't that constructive. Maybe 'conservative' is too broad a word, and we're both taking different meanings from one of modern societies more overloaded phrases.
You say you're not interested in that program, which is fair enough, it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. But you don't seem to have a good grasp of the GAA's history, or its motivations for the things its done in the past, so it might be worth a look. Surviving in Dev's Ireland was no easy task.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 31/08/2014 18:36:24    1645417

31/08/2014 18:36:24
Marlon_JD
Not trying to be snotty, but not much of a counter argument there Ormond, just saying 'no, its ridiculously conservative', regardless of the motivations I've pointed out, isn't that constructive. Maybe 'conservative' is too broad a word, and we're both taking different meanings from one of modern societies more overloaded phrases.
You say you're not interested in that program, which is fair enough, it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. But you don't seem to have a good grasp of the GAA's history, or its motivations for the things its done in the past, so it might be worth a look. Surviving in Dev's Ireland was no easy task. I think my argument has been fine and sound but I will agree we're taking different meanings from the one word.
We finish this here?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 31/08/2014 18:45:16    1645427

Marlon_JD

Surviving in Dev's Ireland was no easy task.

The democratic majority seemed to disagree, based on the number of times they re-elected him. If only they were more clever and wiser like yourself:)

commercials1 (Limerick) - Posts: 115 - 31/08/2014 19:00:23    1645447

GAA and conservatism? at the revolutionary heart of the birth of this state was the GAA and its values. Camogie (for example) was founded in 1903 launched in 1905, in the teeth of opposition by the Catholic church. At the height of the suffergette movement in Ireland you had camogie! Even in the 50's archbishop McQuaid and his Catholic Taliban wanted it banned. GAA was a force for unity in the face of atrocious murderous oppression. It held/holds communities together, it provides a network for girls/boys who have to go abroad. The GAA is above politics, always has been. Banning thugs like certain members of the RUC and B Specials, damn right, same with the military occupying their playing fields and anyone killing their membership, some people have the memory of a single cell amoeba. As for foreign games - remember the Irish Times and its evening paper NEVER reported GAA sport at all up to the arrival of the Irish press nor did the Independant. As far as the grandee's of this state where concerned the GAA didn't exist, I love the way people who know nothing of history rewrite it !!

The true conservatives in this nation wore blue shirts and associated with the Catholic Church and had a self-loathing of all things Irish, hence the promotion of "foreign" games - with the eception of soccer which they loathed as well. The dark evil things they allowed flourish in this country now that WAS the real conservatism at the heart of this country not the GAA.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4957 - 31/08/2014 21:08:40    1645599

I tuned on the rte news last night to listen to the reaction to 2 wonderful All Ireland semi finals over the weekend and 2 of the biggest games of the year. I expected some coverage of them similar to what you'd get after a 6 nations game or a big soccer match. Was surprised the gaa didn't even get a mention considering the time of year and the weekend that had past.

Instead they covered Sexton being injured in a game over in France and the fact that he might miss a couple of Ireland friendlies (equivalent of national league games) in 2 or 3 months time. They went on about Shay Given being back for Ireland and possibly featuring in upcoming games (was little focus on upcoming championship games last week). They covered local soccer, Robbie Keane scoring a goal over in America, golf and something else. I know the gaa got plenty of coverage over the weekend but its no more than rugby or soccer would get during a big weekend and they still feature heavily on the news. Hard to believe it didn't get a mention at this time of year.

A Another (None) - Posts: 194 - 02/09/2014 09:36:31    1646543

31/08/2014 21:08:40 arock
GAA and conservatism? at the revolutionary heart of the birth of this state was the GAA and its values. Camogie (for example) was founded in 1903 launched in 1905, in the teeth of opposition by the Catholic church. At the height of the suffergette movement in Ireland you had camogie! Even in the 50's archbishop McQuaid and his Catholic Taliban wanted it banned. GAA was a force for unity in the face of atrocious murderous oppression. It held/holds communities together, it provides a network for girls/boys who have to go abroad. The GAA is above politics, always has been. Banning thugs like certain members of the RUC and B Specials, damn right, same with the military occupying their playing fields and anyone killing their membership, some people have the memory of a single cell amoeba. As for foreign games - remember the Irish Times and its evening paper NEVER reported GAA sport at all up to the arrival of the Irish press nor did the Independant. As far as the grandee's of this state where concerned the GAA didn't exist, I love the way people who know nothing of history rewrite it !!
The true conservatives in this nation wore blue shirts and associated with the Catholic Church and had a self-loathing of all things Irish, hence the promotion of "foreign" games - with the eception of soccer which they loathed as well. The dark evil things they allowed flourish in this country now that WAS the real conservatism at the heart of this country not the GAA. My point on conservative GAA stands and inspite of role of GAA in revolutionary times it is still innately a highly conservative organisation.
02/09/2014 09:36:31 A Another
I tuned on the rte news last night to listen to the reaction to 2 wonderful All Ireland semi finals over the weekend and 2 of the biggest games of the year. I expected some coverage of them similar to what you'd get after a 6 nations game or a big soccer match. Was surprised the gaa didn't even get a mention considering the time of year and the weekend that had past.
Instead they covered Sexton being injured in a game over in France and the fact that he might miss a couple of Ireland friendlies (equivalent of national league games) in 2 or 3 months time. They went on about Shay Given being back for Ireland and possibly featuring in upcoming games (was little focus on upcoming championship games last week). They covered local soccer, Robbie Keane scoring a goal over in America, golf and something else. I know the gaa got plenty of coverage over the weekend but its no more than rugby or soccer would get during a big weekend and they still feature heavily on the news. Hard to believe it didn't get a mention at this time of year.Surprising little coverage of games on news but Sexton being injured was huge news and reports would only really have came through yesterday and the games he may miss for Ireland are much more than the equivalent of national league games considering theyre the chances to play the big SH3

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 02/09/2014 10:29:50    1646588