See the 20 mt free is coming up for debate, some looking for changes to how it can currently be taken , Cork delegates obviously to resist .
Just wondering how people think on this , personally the atmosphere and tension around the stadium when AN trots forward is pure theatre and the game needs its drama , must be stressed that nobody is suggesting that AN breaks any rules etc but more the rules when designed didn't have his skill level in mind .
Have heard it mentioned at such close distance health and welfare of opposition is in a bit of danger , however have never seen any concrete evidence to back it up .
Be helpful if topic could be discussed without county blinkers on .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 16/12/2013 12:09:29    1524124

If health and safety was an issue then you'd have to ban all shots within the 21. Bogus reason imo.

There's talk of not letting players use goalkeeper hurls to strike for goal.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13802 - 16/12/2013 12:32:47    1524143

I think it should stay damo for the reason you mentioned. Every game needs it's dramatic moments. I don't see how it could hurt anyone in a serious way once everyone is wearing the helmet. I think the rushing off the line before the actual strike is more of an issue. The AN goal in the replay was absolute magic for every hurling supporter I'm sure. Does it get any more dramatic than one man walking the length of the field and striking a ball past 15 lads?!

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 16/12/2013 12:45:39    1524159

I think the point of the rule should be to outlaw using the goalkeepers hurl for anything apart from puck outs.
I think that is a realistic and plausible law change..

bobby_shane (Dublin) - Posts: 106 - 16/12/2013 13:09:37    1524176

It should stay IMO.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 16/12/2013 13:10:12    1524177

It definitely increases the danger, think about Joe Quaids unfortunate incident and then understand that the nearer to goal the ball is struck the less reaction time you have to block it and prevent these situations. Similarly a ball travelling at that speed hitting you in the throat would have incredibly serious consequences. The problem is that if the ball is struck cleanly from 14-15 yards those on the lines have no opportunity to block it unless it hits them, so they are completely relying on good fortune preventing them getting injured. While someone mentioned that this would suggest all shots from inside the 21 would need to be outlawed, in reality a forward never really gets the opportunity to hit a perfectly clean strike from this distance, and when he does it is usually just the goalie in goal so he will instinctively aim away from him.

Perhaps the outlawing of using a goalies hurl should be looked at first but if this doesn't solve it then it will have to be looked at again. You can bet more and more freetakers will be practicing this technique, which increases the likelihood of serious injuries from it.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/12/2013 13:27:21    1524184

Between the two All-Ireland Finals Nash hit four 21 yard frees. He scored two and missed two.

It is an incredible skill, fair play to him, but it is a very risky strategy to employ. If he doesn't rise it right then he won't score.

I'm all for rewarding skill.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13802 - 16/12/2013 14:00:58    1524202

Soma, the fact that I have never heard of anyone getting a throat injury from a sliotar hitting it is indicative of how much of a problem it is.

bobby_shane
County: Dublin
Posts: 13

1524176 I think the point of the rule should be to outlaw using the goalkeepers hurl for anything apart from puck outs.
I think that is a realistic and plausible law change..

Am I missing something?? A goalkeeper's hurley is used for blocking the sliotar, a regular sized hurley is used for puck outs....the exact opposite of what you're saying.... is that the proposal??

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 16/12/2013 14:06:14    1524206

Hurlinspuds that may be so but surely you agree that the chances of it happening are much greater when frees are taken in the way Nash (and others) take them? You may be happy to wait for the first very serious injury/fatality to happen before changing the rules, I would rather something be done about it before a serious incident though. There will of course always be risks, but not sure this is one that should be left in the game. I find a free struck from 19-20 yards more exciting anyway than one struck from 14 because the free struck from further out means there is a contest between those on the line and the freetaker, as Nash showed a free struck from 14 yards is more or less unstoppable and there is no contest (unless the goalie charges it down!) If the skill is perfected like Nash has managed to do, then every 21 yard free should result in a goal which I don't think is all that good for the game.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/12/2013 14:35:56    1524214

4 21 yard frees equal 4 points usually
Nash has a 50% or so conversion rate. So would be worth about 6 points if he takes 4 frees.
Unless the stakes are high and the game is getting away from you its not worth doing. A great skill when used should definitely be allowed to stay.

jpcampion (Laois) - Posts: 194 - 16/12/2013 14:43:08    1524219

Wasn't one of Nash's 4 frees saved illegally though by the keeper charging the shot down? In the expectation this would not be allowed again as the referee was just caught out by an unusual situation, this means 2 out of 3 All-Ireland final frees taken using this style were successful. And didn't all of them involve a breach of the rules as the Clare players were within 20 yards of where the ball was struck?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/12/2013 14:56:58    1524226

Soma, you think the defence has absolutely no chance of stopping it. As campion points out, AN has about a 50% success rate so I guess that throws your theory out the window. Even if his success rate was 100%, is that a reason in itself to change the rule??

You think a sliotar could possibly kill someone?? I've heard of people dying playing hurling but it's pretty outdated now and usually was down to a bang from a hurley or, in more modern times, sudden adult death syndrome. I'm not a doctor but I'd say a sliotar could not kill someone and this is doubly sure if that person is wearing a helmet.

The only danger is the joe quaid injury as someone pointed out above. A player could wear a cup if they're worried about that!? I've often taken a sliotar struck at a serious pace to the back or the chest or the legs, it hurts for a few days but I'm still here to tell the tale ;-)

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 16/12/2013 15:02:50    1524231

A 20 metre free or a penalty, should actually be taken from where its meant to be taken not ten yards further in, a stupid situation. A throat injury from a point blank strike is no laughing matter either, the helmet is of little use in protecting you from one.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4954 - 16/12/2013 15:06:45    1524234

arock, how can it be point blank if people stay on the line as per the rules?? The free in the AI final just before half time when AN struck his opposite number is an example of the existing rules not being properly applied.

If we're talking about a hurley striking the throat then that's something else but I don't see how we're now saying that the sliotar hitting the throat is a new, emerging danger. I just don't see it that way.

I think the rule should be left as is but at most, ensure that the players stay on the line until the moment the sliotar is touched and the 21 taker must strike the ball outside 15 yards of goal.

Kieran Murphy(erins own in cork) had the same technique in the early 00s and no one ever had a problem with it then.He missed one against newtown in the county final. I think it was in 2003 or 4.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 16/12/2013 15:21:45    1524242

Hurlinspuds as explained above 1 of his frees was blocked illegally in a situation that will not happen again so it was effectively 2 from 3 he scored. Kelly, the Clare keeper, admits you have no chance of intentionally blocking that type of free, your only hope is that it hits you. For that reason I would say it is worth considering outlawing it yeah because a 21 yard free should not automatically mean a goal for anyone who perfects this technique, the defending team should have some chance of blocking it, which they do when it is struck from 19-20 metres.

I am no doctor but I would say a sliothar hitting your throat at that pace would put you in serious risk, the fact you seem to turn your back to a shot means you will be fairly safe but others will be in danger! And we both know using a cup is a ridiculous suggestion!

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/12/2013 15:21:54    1524243

why is it ridiculous?? For a goalie? Plenty of other sports use them. It's just a suggestion, I don't even know how they work so explain to me.

Nice cheap shot about turning my back on shots. You've obviously done a pile of hurling if you think that a sliotar can't hit you in the back as a guy is striking.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 16/12/2013 15:31:04    1524248

In football the player would have to strike the ball on the 21m line and if he ran as far as Nash does before striking the ball then the ref would probably hop the ball or call for a retake but the question I have is it in the rules that he has to strike the ball from the point of the free or just lift it from this point? If he hasn't broke any rules then fair play to him for getting an edge!!!
I do agree with other posters about the hurl. I don't think this hurl should be allowed for use in free's, 45's or penalties. It's too much of an incentive to have your goalkeeper taking these pucks.

Tir Conaill Abu (Donegal) - Posts: 1677 - 16/12/2013 15:40:15    1524256

Ah I was relying on you to have a bit of Cork humour with that fairly innocent jibe, though I have played plenty of hurling and am still unsure how the ball would hit you on the back at pace.

Considering how difficult it was to get hurlers wearing helmets, I would say persuading them to wear cups that would in some way impede their movement would be out of the question. It wouldn't just be the goalie who needs it either, there are usually 5 men on the line or in Clares case they would need 13 wearing them! Interestingly did I hear Nash is related to Joe Quaid in some way?

I see your suggestion is that the free should be struck outside the 15 yard line, but if a lad has the skill to throw it up and hit it from 7 yards why should he be stopped - see where that type of thinking goes? In reality there is little difference between a shot from 15 and 8 yards as reaction times mean you can do nothing about either of them! The reason a free is supposed to be from 21 yards is that it penalises the defenders for fouling but also gives them a reasonable chance of using their skills to block any strike at goal. A free struck from 14 yards changes that completely.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/12/2013 15:44:23    1524263

I would say that a free-in should always favour the attacking team and be heavily biased in their favour. If it is not, you will get a lot of cynical defending. If every county had an Anthony Nash, then you can be sure they would probably rather give away points than 21 yard frees.

I am all for changing rules if they enhance hurling. I would not be totally against changing the rule here. I am interested in the wording, however.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 16/12/2013 15:50:49    1524268

Well, in the first place, every free-taker I have ever seen, throws the ball forward when taking a 20 meter free. This practice goes back at least to the time of Christy Ring (probably further, but I've read about Ring's free-taking), when there were no penalties and close-in frees were taken from the 21-yard line. I always felt there was an element of danger in it, myself, but many of those shots have been saved by the quick reaction of the men on the line, so, although the ball travels from stick to goal line in a fraction of a second, there is obviously the time to get a hand up if it is heading for the head. The problem is that the instinct is to bring the hurley up and this may not offer proper protection.

In general play you can also be struck in the face with the ball as happened to Ger Cunningham in the All-Ireland final against Galway some years ago. The striker was so close that he had no time to react. So what do you do there ...?

Midleton (Cork) - Posts: 644 - 16/12/2013 16:00:28    1524274