I see Liam O'Neill is giving hints that the Black Card might make it's way into hurling before long. I'm no fan of it's introduction to football because I don't trust the officials to implement it properly.

However, I was expecting the 'hurling people' to start foaming at the mouth about it's possible introduction to hurling. Considine's article in the Examiner, exerts of which are published on this website, are probably the opening of the floodgates on this issue. It's a really badly worded and poor argument that a broadsheet shouldn't be publishing, but it highlights the ignorance of many hurling people who feel that cynical fouling is confined purely to football.

Anyone who's even the slightest interest in hurling will know that there is plenty of dragging and chopping down of lads going through on goal. Plenty of illegal use of the hurl. Plenty of poor behaviour by managers on the sideline. This attitude of "sure it's good manly stuff", and "we don't need any interference in our game" will only serve to alienate themselves further from everyone else.

ringo (Wexford) - Posts: 384 - 04/12/2013 14:08:05    1520483

I agree with you, Ringo. Lots of lads are still dual players (at club level anyway) & they'd cynically drag down an opponent in football but not in hurling? Rubbish!

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 04/12/2013 14:32:38    1520501

Tony is wrong imo. I think, as a referee, the black card system should be introduced to hurling. I would support Liam O'Neill 100% in this. There are plenty of cynically fouls in hurling. Flicking back the hurley, tapping the elbow, the little tap on the ankle as an opponent is running to the ball and so on. A disciplinary system for management teams in both codes should be introduced too. Management need to show leadership. It's no wonder players can show disrespect to a referee and match officials and think they can say what they like to them when some managers behave like demented animals on the sideline. Strong and lengthy bans should be introduced for abuse of match officials. Mind you referees should stand up and report this instead of going with the same oled "shure tis part of our games" rubbish. A lot of players also play rugby but they wouldn't dream of abusing a rugby referee because they know it wouldn't be tolerated by the rugby ruling bodies.

donkeyford (Limerick) - Posts: 119 - 04/12/2013 14:51:10    1520513

Some managers in hurling give a very bad example in terms of their behaviour. One might say some of them create more hassle for officials than their players!

ringo (Wexford) - Posts: 384 - 04/12/2013 15:04:15    1520525

I agree with Considine , think before answering , there was a clamour for it in football for good reason , there was an obvious problem that was becoming a cancer in the game , the same push wasn't and isnit there in hurling , of course similar things can happen in hurling Im not saying it cant , but just because something seems to fit and feel right we should just do it for the sake of it ,
When are people going to get it into their heads we are talking of two different games that have many similar components , but no they are not the same , at times football has more in common with soccer than it does hurling , stop trying to make things easy its just another word for lazy .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 04/12/2013 15:06:11    1520526

damothedub

I think your being very naive to say doesnt exist as much in hurling.
the all ireland final being a great match still had plenty of penaltys awarded and 21 yard frees in front of the posts to stop goal scoring chances just like in football.dublin v cork match had simliar situation where cork player knew what he was doing.
there only two matches and one type of incident,there are several dirty strokes with the hurl that go unpunished and as original poster stated its always classed as manly stuff but in fairness if somebody assaulted somebody outside a nightclub with a hurl would they label that "ah its just manly behaviour"

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 04/12/2013 15:18:35    1520532

Damo, there has been cynical fouling in hurling for a long time. Kilkenny are grand-masters at it and they are very good at intimidating referees over it.

donkeyford (Limerick) - Posts: 119 - 04/12/2013 15:18:59    1520533

The sin bin is way better than that stupid black card. if you ahve the bare 15 your snookered like. where a ain bin rule would give allow the punishment to fit the crime. Also bring in the last man back foul and send of the defender who stops a goal acoring chance illegaliy. happy days

Fishermantom (Limerick) - Posts: 569 - 04/12/2013 15:25:34    1520538

Fishermantom, nail on the head. Hurling needs 10 minutes and calm down period...more than enough punishment.

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 04/12/2013 15:36:00    1520542

I would say the Sin Bin for football myself for the same reason. Rolling the Black Card system out in both club and intercounty is a really brave, and perhaps dangerous approach.

To say there is no cynical fouling would be very naive, as another poster mentioned.

ringo (Wexford) - Posts: 384 - 04/12/2013 16:04:03    1520557

I'd be all for a clampdown on cynical play in hurling, by whatever means necessary. Anyone who says cynical fouling is just a problem in football hasn't watched much hurling over the last 10 years outside of the highlight reels. Its been a problem for a few years now, and the sooner the GAA does something to curb it, the better.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 04/12/2013 16:08:53    1520560

Talking about cynical fouling! I watched this years hurling final replay recently and Cork were fairly handy at cynically winning fouls. Not something which is nice to see coming into the game.
Anything which give's honest skill and effort a chance is good

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 04/12/2013 16:30:08    1520566

I think a hurling match is too short to have a ten minute sin bin. Clinical fouling is not a problem in hurling because it's much easier for teams to score a free than in football. The type of fouling that happened in the football final at the end would never happen in hurling because it's A) very hard to do it seeing as the ball spends a lot less time in hand than football ans B)not practical considering it's very possible to score does types of frees. Fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 04/12/2013 16:38:00    1520571

I think a few people need to read posts before commenting on them , I said there was a clamour for rule change in football and there wasnt the same push from it from the hurling circles , I did not say there wasnt cynical fouling in hurling , different sentence altogether .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 04/12/2013 16:54:04    1520581

I think the bigger problem for hurling people is that there seems to be a sense that what goes for one game, goes for the other, and rules designed for football are ending up being used for hurling when there's no need for it. This black card for hurling idea is coming out in the open despite repeated assurances from Croke Park that the black card won't be introduced into hurling. It now seems that Croke Park are doing a u-turn on this issue to bring both games into the one rule-book.

Its simply unfair to both hurling and football to be lumped together as one entity. They're two very different sports, and what goes for one doesn't mean it will work for the other, and I reckon the black card would be a really bad move for hurling.

Football and hurling share a lot of similarities, but they're mostly off the pitch. The two games should be though and regulated as different sports, they're both great sports but they can't achieve their true potential as sports if their being hampered by rules designed for the other.

I think if this black card comes in for hurling, there will be a serious problem for the GAA as it would seem to hurling people as a football rule is being put into their sport for the sake of it. Rightly or wrongly, hurling people believe their game is being marginalized by the football brigade in Croke Park who are making decisions that are not in the games interest, even if its in Croke Park's interest. And they believe that this is happening as football people have more representation on hurling matters than hurling people do, as due to the GAA "democratic" process which allows every county a say means that this is the case as football simply is simply the bigger sport so will have more representation.

The black card is the type of thing that could lead eventually to separate hurling and football bodies. Which I think needs to happen anyway and wouldn't be a bad thing, that way both sports could achieve their potential without being hampered by the other, and the people making the decisions would the ones with the games best interest at heart.

Croke Park does a hell of a lot of things right and for the most part do the right thing, and I would generally be very supportive of them, but this is one issue they have never tried to address as I just don't think you can treat two completely separate sports as the same thing just because they're under your umbrella.

dblackandamber (Kilkenny) - Posts: 92 - 04/12/2013 19:25:54    1520637

Thank you dblackandamber , for putting my point in a more articulate manner , well said , couldn't agree more , but watch out for the usual soundbite answers based on fact your from Kilkenny .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 04/12/2013 19:44:10    1520642

Agree with damo and dblackandamber on this. And yiz should read his post properly before the knee-jerk reaction. There's less point cynically fouling someone in hurling, as more often than not, it will result in a score. The biggest problem in hurling, as Ban spotted, is fouling by the player in possession, eg. grabbing and holding the defenders hurley/arm to make it look likes its himself that's being grabbed, falling down and winning a free (every time). This happens about 15 times in every ic match, but no-one has any interest in stopping it at all

flack (Dublin) - Posts: 1054 - 04/12/2013 20:29:16    1520658

rebelcork

you say the type of fouling that happened in the football final wouldnt happen in the hurling final
then howcome the cork goalkeeper spent most of the match taking 21 yard line goal scoring frees/penaltys

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 04/12/2013 20:53:20    1520667

flack

there may be less point doing it in certain areas or certain types but it happened plenty of times between both semi finals and finals where players were cynicaly stopped when goal chances occured,also striking somebody with ahurl surely comes under this or if not neds to at some stage be given a far more serious punishment then a word in the ear or the odd time a yellow card

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 04/12/2013 20:57:04    1520669

hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 6680

Very few of the fouls were cylinical in any way from clare. They were also punished for their fouls.

RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 04/12/2013 20:59:44    1520671