Passer_By
County: Carlow
The top team in 2A next year dosent automatically get promoted anymore but has to play the bottom placed team in 1B who'll invariably have an advantage by playing better quality teams over the preceding months. The fairest thing to do in my mind is two divisions of 7
1A Kilkenny, Tipp, Galway, Clare, Dublin, Waterford, Cork or Limerick
2A Cork or Limerick, Offaly, Wexford, Antrim, Laois, Carlow, Westmeath
Each of the foregoing divisions would be reasonably competitive as demonstrated by this years league results and provide a place for the developing end quartet.
You could liven things up by having the top team in 1B automatically promoted with a playoff between second in 1B and second last in 1A. That would keep it tooth and nail all the way.

Yeah, there's something to be said for that 7 teams division system, the extra league game for every team would be welcome. Ideally, it would be coupled with the type of relegation/promotion that Passer_By and keeper7 mentioned, namely the bottom team from 1a and top team from 1b getting promoted/relegated automatically, with a relegation playoff between 2nd placed 1B & 2nd from last in 1A. I think the biggest flaw in the current system is the low number of teams passing between tiers, and how difficult it is to get out of 1b. If 2 teams at least had a chance of going up from 1b, it would make relegation to that tier less of a perceived disaster for a team.

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but as it stands, next years league is going to have a new format regardless. Next year, there will be quarter finals, with the top 4 teams from 1a AND the top 4 teams from 1b qualifying. This is a ridiculous move, and will largely negate the competitiveness and edge we saw in this years league. It'll be the worst of both worlds.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 10/08/2013 18:54:45    1458310

Lets be honest. Some peoples idea of the league is that it is okay for Antrim/Laois/Westmeath/Carlow, to be away down playing among themselves but god forbid our fellas have to mix in that company. Think they can finish bottom of the heap but still by divine ordinance stay in the top flight.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 10/08/2013 19:28:50    1458325

hurlingdub
County: Dublin
Posts: 4914

1458325
Lets be honest. Some peoples idea of the league is that it is okay for Antrim/Laois/Westmeath/Carlow, to be away down playing among themselves but god forbid our fellas have to mix in that company. Think they can finish bottom of the heap but still by divine ordinance stay in the top flight.

the likes of Clare, Limerick, Wexford etc have been complaining for years about the league as they think its there right to be in Div 1 as there ''hurling counties'' Limerick have won 1 All Ireland since 1940 and 3 Munster Championships in the last 20 plus years yet they seem to think there too good to play outside of Div 1. They were relegated to Div 2 because of ''player power'' and went on strike, so hard to feel sorry for them as a lot of the players in that strike are still playing. Like i said if there as good as they think they are they would just get on with it and get promoted back and lot look to change things for them.

iv noticed it quite a lot with Limerick people that they look down on the likes of Kerry, Laois, Carlow etc of this world and they would have no problem with them not progressing as long as they get there way. The other side of it then is they have no problem coming along trying to get Kerry players to play with them.

The same can be said for Clare, a few years back afre being relegated there manager came out with comments about how they'll only feld a B team as playing Div 2 was no good to them, they were in Div 2 on merit as they clearly werent good enough for Div 1. Much like Limerick Clare dont have all that much to be shouting about. No All Ireland since 1997, no Munster championship since 98. Only won there first Munster Championship game this year since 2008, yet they still feel its there right to play in Div 1. Now this year they won that right after being promoted last year so they got there on merit.

moomoo (Kerry) - Posts: 4023 - 11/08/2013 14:20:06    1458646

Moomoo, I must stop you there.

I agree to an extent with you saying that if we're good enough, we should be able to get there by ourselves. But I believe we should have a top tier of at least 8 teams anyway. I'd like to see the old 12 team league back, to help the likes of Antrim, Carlow etc.

As for us having one All-Ireland since 1940, that' s well and good but how many counties outside of the big three have won more than three in that time? Bare in mind as well that we should have had at least one in the 90's. Ultimately we didn't win it, but we've had a great team not that long ago, and the current crop are promising.

Also, I can't speak for all of Limerick but I for one have a massive interest in hurling in 'weaker' counties. I'm very excited at what Carlow did this year, considering that they've the pick of only a few parishes! They should have beaten a so-called traditional county in Wexford who actually showed some signs of an upward curve this year. The first day out against Dublin and the match against Clare, as well as under-21 success, for Wexford shows that Carlow are doing well, very well. Laois played very well, and I see them as a hurling county and want them to do well. Antrim have always had a place close to my heart, as they are flying the flag in a province where hurling is almost non-existent, and I'd LOVE to see them become major contenders, as they were briefly in the late 80's and early 90's.

As for Kerry, I know they can hurl. Hurling in Kerry is often compared to football in Kilkenny, and it's a ridiculous comparison. There's a proper hurling patch in North Kerry, and they're in the top half of teams in the country. From what I saw in 2003, probably the best Kerry team I've seen, ye should have beaten Limerick, and I for one would not have begrudged it. I'd like to see Kerry competing. And I think it could happen some day!

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 11/08/2013 15:09:48    1458697

If Limerick beat Clare, next year's division 1A won't feature any of the two All-Ireland finalists.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9495 - 11/08/2013 20:45:16    1459158

There seems to have been pains with divisions of 8 amd 12.

Why not a top division of 10, each playing six of the nine opponents, and with one standings table.

The help avoid one-saided games, two top and bottom seeds (1,2,9,10) play the six middle seeds (3 to 8); while (3,6.7) and (4,5,8) play round robins to complete a total of six games.

Playoffs consist of top two with byes to SFs and 3rd to 6th in QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3375 - 12/08/2013 17:39:38    1459897

Good post moomoo. Don't Monaghan to the Cats - to claim that they CAN'T be relegated.

Anyway this Summer has proven it to be a side issue. Non issue indeed.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 12/08/2013 17:44:56    1459907

Missing words! Point was no team should think they are immune from the vagaries of the league.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 12/08/2013 17:48:20    1459913

I like our county board's proposal.

With less NHL games managers tend to go off & organise challenge games. With 7 games against big opposition you have games that help to develop teams and bring them on. I think even a 10 team NHL would be well worthwhile & would help Laois, Antrim, Carlow, whoever would make it to the top tier.

But if it is left at 6 teams in 1A & 1B, no big deal. As has been mentioned the structure has done no harm to Limerick or Dublin this year so if that decision is made so be it.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6627 - 12/08/2013 17:54:08    1459920

ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Posts: 5368

1458013 10/08/2013 11:10:52
legendzxix
Bring in divisions of 8 with 2 up and down and leave it at that. No.
divisions of 6 work best in hurling due to strength in depth very different to football.

There are too few games under the current format Ormind. Some teams only had 7 league and championship games this year. Not nearly enough.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6196 - 12/08/2013 18:17:16    1459943

This is probably the best way it should be run, the traditional way.
Division 1: Kilkenny, Tipp, Galway, Dublin, Limerick, Clare, Cork, Waterford.
Division 2: Wexford, Offaly, Antrim, Laois, Carlow, Westmeath, Kerry, Meath, London.
Division 3: Down, Kildare, Wicklow, Mayo, Armagh, Derry, Roscommon, Donegal.
Division 4: Sligo, Leitrim, Longford, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Louth, Monaghan, Fingal.

Top 2 in Division 1 go straight to semis and top 2 in Division 2 play off with 3rd and 4th in division for place in semis.
Also a preliminary div 2 final to be played to decide who will be playing who in league qtr final. ultimately the winner of div. 2 will be promoted automatically.

Benefits.
1. Far More meaningful Games especially for weaker teams.
2. Allows managers to try out more new players because of more games.
3. Big Gate receipts from especially division 1.
4. As regards Division 2 really good games for the likes of Westmeath, Kerry etc to measure their progress against the likes of Offaly, Wexford etc. For example in 2011 Westmeath gave good account of themselves against Clare and Limerick respectively and Carlow beat Wexford if Memory is correct.

preddan (Kildare) - Posts: 823 - 13/08/2013 12:02:30    1460305

In 2013 we've had one of the most open and enjoyable hurling championships in a couple of decades, and even the likes of Carlow, Westmeath & Laois can all point to progress. Do not make any changes whatsoever!

ringo (Wexford) - Posts: 384 - 13/08/2013 13:24:39    1460400

What do you think of my idea, seven or so postings ago ?

Is there not the right blend and quantity of good games ?

In the NHL, a full round robin is not essential as ability to make the knockouts trumps table positioning.

Would you prefer (1,2,3,10,11,12) v (4 to 9) in a 12-team division ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3375 - 13/08/2013 15:37:19    1460573

ringo
County: Wexford
In 2013 we've had one of the most open and enjoyable hurling championships in a couple of decades, and even the likes of Carlow, Westmeath & Laois can all point to progress. Do not make any changes whatsoever!

Yeah, I do think this years league may have had a positive bearing on this years championship. Unfortunately, I believe changes have been already been made which will affect next years league, namely the introduction of quarter-finals contested by the top four in 1a and the top 4 in 1b. So teams that finish in the bottom half of the 1a and 1b tables will still get to the knockout stages of the league. That'll pretty much nullify the intensity we saw in this years league, the intensity which meant teams like Tipp and Kilkenny had to expend energy early on and not get to pace themselves for the championship like hey usually do. Its a pity, they should have either left the league as it was this year, or gone with the 8 teams divisions people are asking for. The system we'll have next year will be a waste of time.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 13/08/2013 15:50:44    1460589

/08/2013 17:39:38
omahant
There seems to have been pains with divisions of 8 amd 12.

Why not a top division of 10, each playing six of the nine opponents, and with one standings table.

The help avoid one-saided games, two top and bottom seeds (1,2,9,10) play the six middle seeds (3 to 8); while (3,6.7) and (4,5,8) play round robins to complete a total of six games.

Playoffs consist of top two with byes to SFs and 3rd to 6th in QFs.
No if you have a league all teams should play all the teams in their division
How do you decide who plays who and no that doesn't avoid one sided games
omahant. what do you do as all you do is use this site for creating endless ideas for competition revamps.
Omahant why not make things easier for everyone and create a thread where you put all your ideas rather than putting them in every 2nd thread.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 13/08/2013 16:15:24    1460622

To Ormand:

I work in financial anlaysis for a major global firm - pays well - you obviously can afford and have the smarts to do something else.

It doesn't make sense to put all posting in one thread - you don't comply with this, and not everyone here likes to read your drivel.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3375 - 13/08/2013 17:17:46    1460706

ringo
County: Wexford
In 2013 we've had one of the most open and enjoyable hurling championships in a couple of decades, and even the likes of Carlow, Westmeath & Laois can all point to progress. Do not make any changes whatsoever!

Under my plan, the weak teams would avoid the strongest and play mid range opposition to improve further !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3375 - 13/08/2013 17:29:48    1460718

omahant
County: USA
ringo
County: Wexford
In 2013 we've had one of the most open and enjoyable hurling championships in a couple of decades, and even the likes of Carlow, Westmeath & Laois can all point to progress. Do not make any changes whatsoever!

Under my plan, the weak teams would avoid the strongest and play mid range opposition to improve further !

That's what having separate divisions is designed to do, so better to keep it as a simple league structure, with all teams in appropriate divisions playing each other, and working their way up thus.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 13/08/2013 18:39:56    1460791

A few years ago we had divisions with 6 teams in it but instead of having a top 6 and a second six we had it mixed up slightly. I think, if Limerick qualify for the final this year we will have something similar next year anyway.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 13/08/2013 20:29:31    1460878

To Marlon_JD

Split divisions of 'six in 1A, six in 1B' mean that the team ranked 7th, for example, plays those ranked 8 to 12. In my plan, they would play 1,2,3,10,11,12 - a stronger and more attractive schedule to help improve. But I understand that everyone here thinks my ideas are daft.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3375 - 14/08/2013 13:54:28    1461391