jimbodub
living in Dublin has a lot more they can do on a Sunday that travel across town in the rain.

Once again. Excellent stuff... but I wouldnt waste your breath.

Well not really no. Because all things considered, we already see that they can get 7 times the young lads out playing than the rest of us. That has been factored in at this point, they have the youngsters out playing, therfore these 140 odd lads have considered it and chosen to travel across town in the rain. Just like the 20 young lads down the country who have chosen to travel the 7-8 miles to their local ground, tog out in a car and train on a bad pitch in the rain.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 26/07/2013 13:06:40    1443059

Someone has to sit at the top of the pile... and in this case it's Dublin

Fair enough. Just not so far on top that it threatens to take away the fairness of competition - like having 7 times as many players for example. You do want fair competition right?


You have similar advantages over many other counties yourselves... again not as big as Dublin's but surely that's just common sense.

You want fair completion right?

I think if you want to address fairness it should start on your own door step first…

Surely that's the most responsible way of tackling it… instead of pointing the finger at other counties whileenjoying many advantages yourselves.

That seems very cowardly.

Sorry but until fairness is applied across the board... your argument is pointless and without any sort of foundation.

The reality is that the GAA has never been fair… to then base your whole argument on fairness is therefore completely misguided.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 26/07/2013 13:10:22    1443063

I agree fully that we will always have a larger pool of players to pick from... but Mayo will also enjoy such an advatage of many other counties.

So it all evens out is that what you are saying? Meanwhile dublin win a load of trophies that all things being equal they wouldnt get anywhere near - you forgot that bit... But sure mayo have a bigger pick than leitrim so it is the same for everyone! That is like something you would hear from lionel hutz...

Why do you keep ignoring the obvious difference in scale in the difference between mayo and leitrim and dublin and the average? It is the crux of the issue, so to keep ignoring it is frankly a joke.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 26/07/2013 13:17:02    1443071

Meanwhile dublin win a load of trophies that all things being equal they wouldnt get anywhere near - you forgot that bit...

How can I forget something that hasn't happened yet?

Your whole understanding of time and space is very curious...

Your same logic could be applied to Mayo... lording it over most counties in Connacht

all things being equal they wouldnt get anywhere near

I couldn't see Mayo having as many Connacht titles on that basis...

I'm not ignoring anything...

You're whole argument is based on something that in all likelihood may never even happen......

Attached to that is fairness... fairness has never existed in the GAA

In the current setup of Inter County GAA there will always be advantages and disadvantages

Your whole argument based on fairness is baseless.

When has the GAA ever been fair man…?

You have to get this out of your head... you're stuck in a perpetual loop

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 26/07/2013 13:33:13    1443089

DubHurling - you maek a good point. Not sure they are disassosciated with GAA when they (well their parents) were in Dublin but joining a club is a logical step when you move to a new community as a way of settling in - and they are all more than welcome and a great addition to the club.


Jimbo / Hill16No1Man - you seem to have chosen to completely ignored the facts in my post. Fair enough but lets not listen to you blather about how the population arguement is some sort of myth going forward,

Real_Slim_Shady (Meath) - Posts: 153 - 26/07/2013 13:44:44    1443098

You will probably find as well Slim that the Arnotts/Vodafone shirts will be replaced over the years by the green! That has been case with my nephews in Kildare who are now convinced flourbags. Much to the shame of my brother :-)

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 26/07/2013 13:54:38    1443108

Look in every sport there will always be difference in population, fan base, revenue etc.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11664 - 26/07/2013 13:59:53    1443114

So "Real slim shady"

What you are saying is that Dublin will always have an advantage right?

I think you'll spot that I have never denied that and in fact have said it several times on this thread...

We were only saying that this whole...

"Sure them Dubs have feckin 1.3 million to pick from" idiotic stance is compeltely untrue...

The same applies to all counties of course...but once and for all can we just drop the 1.3 million rubbish...

Themaster threw out a figure of 15% of that...I'm not sure if thats even accurate but I'll take his word for it...

True we still ahve more players than anyone else but hey... when has that never been the case?

Advantages/disadvantage... blah blah blah... when has that never been a factor?

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 26/07/2013 14:01:15    1443116

hurlingdub
County: Dublin
Posts: 4769

1443108 You will probably find as well Slim that the Arnotts/Vodafone shirts will be replaced over the years by the green! That has been case with my nephews in Kildare who are now convinced flourbags. Much to the shame of my brother :-)


You do have a point there HurlingDub (as will the Roscommon / Mayo ones in Dublin). But reckon thats a generation off. One of the Dublin minors from last year was born and bred in Meath but brought up, like so many of his neighbours, in believing that blue is the colour.

Real_Slim_Shady (Meath) - Posts: 153 - 26/07/2013 14:06:24    1443123

hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 5332

1442541 Wow some country guys here really don't have a clue about Dublin club scene.


Why would they? What can you tell me about the club scene in, say, Sligo?

decky (Roscommon) - Posts: 384 - 26/07/2013 14:07:17    1443125

This is an extract from the report i mentioned. It is available on the Cootehill Celtic website on the following link:

http://www.cootehillceltic.com/news/2011/Commission%20Report.html

"In 1841, Cavan's population, according to the Census of Population for that year, was 243,158, of whom 120,814 were male. When the county won its first four All-Irelands, its population was between 70,000 and 80,000. By 1951, the year before Cavan's last All-Ireland senior victory, that had fallen to 66,377, of which 36,187 were male. Over the next four decades, it was to fall even further - to just over 50,000 (52,618 in 1971 and 52,796 in 1991), with the 1960s producing the most dramatic decline.

In the last fifty years, only one county, Offaly, has won an All-Ireland Senior Football title, with a population of less than 65,000, and only two others, with a population below 100,000, have succeeded - Louth in 1957 and Meath in 1967 - and both of those have populations of well in excess of 100,000 today.
The situation is slightly more balanced in hurling - but only slightly, with both Kilkenny and Offaly winning more titles than could be expected, given their population bases.

Clearly, football success is highly correlated with population, or at least with having a population of a reasonable level; were it not for Offaly, we could easily be driven to assume that population trends are absolute determinants of success. Fortunately, we now know that it is possible to succeed with a small population, but it is not easy.
Even by Ulster standards, Cavan's population is small e.g. Donegal's is currently over 130,000 and that county has only one All-Ireland at senior level. Even counties in the North, where big proportions of their populations would tend to eschew Gaelic Games, still have nationalist populations which are significantly higher than Cavan's total; that is now true of five of the six Northern counties (Fermanagh is the only exception), whereas it was not true of a number of them in the first half and middle of the last century.

This review was commissioned to see if we could identify what had happened to Cavan Football and how the county might be restored to something like its former glory. For obvious reasons, success at inter-county level is important to Gaels in Cavan - and that is as it should be.
But our study was also designed to see how standards at club level might be improved - partly because that should contribute to inter-county success, but also because it is important in its own right. Cavan is one of only two counties, in the province, never to have produced the winners of the Ulster Senior Club Football Championship. Had that competition existed in earlier decades, it is reasonable to assume that Cornafean, Cavan Slashers, Mullahoran and possibly some others, would have won it.

Therefore, the standard of club football needs to be improved. The fact that some (though not many) Cavan-born footballers play club football outside the county, has to be a slight concern. If the standards were higher and the chances of success at inter-county level, or in the provincial and national club championships, were greater, that problem might diminish; more Cavan players might then stay with their home clubs, even if they were forced to work outside the county's boundary.

Therefore, on the basis of its population statistics, Cavan faces a major challenge, if it is to regain its former pre-eminence on the football fields of Ulster and Ireland."

The introduction to the report is interesting even to people not from Cavan.

ArminTamzarian (Cavan) - Posts: 66 - 26/07/2013 14:13:16    1443139

26/07/2013 11:58:25
TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 7918

1442965 I disagree that the % playing the game is the all-important stat. If county A has 150,000 people and every single one of them play gaa, and county b has 1.5 million and 10% of them play gaa, they stil have the same amount of people playing gaa. Now dublin might have a slightly higher percentage who dont play gaa in general. So in the above example we will say county A has 50% and county b has 30%. That means county a has 75,000, while county b has 450,000. Clearly percentages are misleading when such a huge difference in mass is involved. Now I accept I have just invented the figures, but it serves as an example.

When you consider the above, even if county b were split in half as it stands, each would have 225,000 compared to county a having 75,000. I appreciate that splitting them is tough and whatever else, and that they should be winning all round them before that would be considered, but at the same time, at what point do you say well tough luck if you lads are not good enough, the numbers involved are just too big and fairness has to come first. It is equivalent to lance armstrong coming second in all them tour de frances and trying to argue he should be let continue unchecked until he actually starts winning them...
26/07/2013 12:05:59
jimbodub
County: Dublin
Posts: 10744

1442976 hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 5330

1442959 real slim shday

how have we 2.5 times the next county to choose from?
breakdown dublins population it becomes very evident that thats not true.
1.2million accounted for in dublin on last census.
650 thousand of them were female!!!!
leaving you immediately with 550 thousand men in dublin.if at the very least half the number non nationals in ireland which is 550 thousand live in dublin thats 250 thousand which is again another 125 thousand men reducing the number of dublin males to 425 thousand.
now i cannot find a figure for the amount of country people resident in dublin but you can bet your house its a large figure.
thus blowing this whole 1.2 million number as a completer myth

I have never, nor do I believe most other posters have, said anything about Dublin having 1.2m people to choose from. Irs all down to relativity - the multiple of the playing pool in Dublin v other counties.

You rubbished my comment that Dublin have 2.5 times the next county to choose from ("how have we 2.5 times the next county to choose from?") yet I have shown that in fact they have 5.7 times. Yet you chose to ignore this.

In the words of the Stunning "Darling if the truth hurts don't look it might go away"

Real_Slim_Shady (Meath) - Posts: 153 - 26/07/2013 14:15:21    1443141

Excellent read ArminTamzarian

Real_Slim_Shady (Meath) - Posts: 153 - 26/07/2013 14:20:31    1443150

There are 38,000 people from the Presbyterian community living in Donegal , most BUT NOT ALL , don't play GAA. Dublin has crazy playing numbers

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 26/07/2013 14:23:41    1443152

What you are saying is that Dublin will always have an advantage right?
I think you'll spot that I have never denied that and in fact have said it several times on this thread...

At what point does the advantage need to be managed though? That is the question? You seem to think it should be just left to develop as it is, with no concern for fairness at all. At present they have 10 times the average county, 10 times! And 2.5 times ther nearest county. Surely it is only reasonable to ask some questions at this point? You are talking in very vague terms like it is some great unknown. 'Is it an advantage? Who knows for sure?', 'That is just the way it is' etc etc. Of course we know - the extract posted above shows that we know. You seem to think that we should just forget about it, like it is just one of those things, but it isnt. Nor is it the same as mayo having more people than leitrim. At the end of the day leitrim is just 1 county who are not going to have a say in either hurling or football, to suggest everyone should have to be split up to match them just wont work and is in my opinion a disingenuous attempt to neutralise the valid argument as regards your own county. Maybe something could be done for them as regards players from other counties who are not in the reckoning for county squads being made eligible? It is really a different issue. Dublin on the other hand, on average have 10 times more players than everyone. That is quite different. They have 10 times the resources of teams they are coming up against in finals and semi-finals. It just isnt fair. This is an issue in the gaa, and it is one that can be easily sorted. Whether you like it or not, is a differnt, and frankly non-important issue.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 26/07/2013 14:45:21    1443169

At what point does the advantage need to be managed though? That is the question?

Not now anyway.

We'll have to see what happens...

No one wants to see some sort of domination like Kilkenny in the hurling...

Although thats seems to be grand... Mayo dont bother their arse with Hurling...

Be glad of that fact Kilkenny posters...

At least you dont have to put up with themasters private campaigns to see your county split up...

All in the course of "Fairness"

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 26/07/2013 14:58:22    1443186

TheMaster

theres only three clubs in dublin that can field more then 2 clubs at any age level i dont care what you say about other posters,im involved in the dublin club scene i know the clubs and just becuase croke and boden are high profile,you miss out the fact that they take in such big areas where they are the only club in that region,where as on the northside take for example
o tooles,trinity gaels,st monicas,naomh barrog,raheny would all be the same size area as crokes.
most of these clubs dont have a team at every age level even and i dont think any would have more then one team at any age group.
My post on non nationals is not guesswork its fact the latest census declared that slightly over 550 thousand non nationals are in ireland and the largest areas they are in are dublin city and fingal.there is not 20 thousand non nationals in most other countys also the number is very low under 10 thousand in most.
You keep thinking a ratio works in simple terms of population it doesnt.
take dublin to kilkenny or kerry.dublins sporting participation would be spread very even across all sports where as kilkenny and kerry would have one sport that takes the bulk of sporting participation.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 26/07/2013 15:17:03    1443206

jimbodub
County: Dublin
Posts: 10745


At least you dont have to put up with themasters private campaigns to see your county split up...


Seriously James - you need to get a grip - its a public forum - he's not some evil dictator

Real_Slim_Shady (Meath) - Posts: 153 - 26/07/2013 15:17:43    1443209

beir_bua
County: Kildare
Posts: 265

1442992
It's a wonder that the GAA survives in Dublin at all what with all those non nationals and women, not to mention those non national women. Women and people born outside of Ireland obviously have no involvement in the GAA!! ;)

well 99% of non antionals are not involved with gaa thus not being available for selcetion.
and common sense tells you gim gavin cant pick women so my points are valid

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 26/07/2013 15:19:14    1443210

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 7922

1443006
hill16no1man, you do realise that there are the same or very similar percentages of women in every county right? We can all go into a breakdown of women in each county but since it is the same for everyone it has no bearing in the world. So ti is basically cut everyone's population in half or nobodies - which makes no difference anyway. You cant seem to get it into your head that thse things just scale down, with slight fluctuations here and there. But in the face of a 1000% increase in numbers, those fluctuations are a non-event.
If there are 100 people in county a and 1000 in county b. You cant make a song and dance about county b having 500 woman, because they also have 500 men, compared to county a's 50.

yes i do your the one saying dublin have 1.2 million to choose from and im proving they dont.
im not saying any other county has this or that to pick ateam from am i?

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 26/07/2013 15:22:35    1443217