Gatekeeper

not surprised your confused, me too. Only half of original message was posted

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2248 - 20/06/2013 10:06:52    1411247

s goldrick, good post

loyal82royal (Meath) - Posts: 260 - 20/06/2013 10:32:50    1411274

SGoldrick
now it's the league's fault because all the best teams are in the one division.. have you heard of promotion and relegation.

Ya - sure I have. But again this thread is an echo of other threads and similar calls around the country to change the championship structure because of the nature of the defeats being handed out. All I'm saying is that these calls can be fixed if the League structure was changed accordingly rather than the drastic changes like getting rid of provincial championships or bringing in a B championship for the weaker counties.

MaigheoAbu (Mayo) - Posts: 343 - 20/06/2013 10:49:50    1411289

The Gate Keeper of Tyrone has a solid plan.

You could keep the league in its current format, or alternatively play the provincials at the time of the league. Then for the real championship, an open draw, 32 seeded teams based on league/provincial performance.

Champions league/ Europa League style format i.e. top two teams from each group of 4 contest, on a straight knockout basis. the last 16, quarters, semi final and final.

Those who finished 3rd and 4th in the group stages would do the same thing, albeit not for Sam, but for a secondary trophy. That way theres loads of football for every team, and the more football the better for all.

Sergeant_Slash (Cavan) - Posts: 2182 - 20/06/2013 11:14:12    1411314

And here's a simpler plan.
Keep the championship structure exactly as it is.

change the League based on the championship i.e. along the following lines
4 divisions
div1 (AI winner, 1/4 loser, Rd 4 backdoor loser, Rd 3 backdoor loser, Rd 2 backdoor loser *2, Rd1 backdoor loser * 2)
div2 (AI runner-up, 1/4 loser, Rd 4 backdoor loser, Rd 3 backdoor loser, Rd 2 backdoor loser *2, Rd1 backdoor loser * 2)
div3 (semi-final loser, 1/4 loser, Rd 4 backdoor loser, Rd 3 backdoor loser, Rd 2 backdoor loser *2, Rd1 backdoor loser * 2)
div4 (semi-final loser, 1/4 loser, Rd 4 backdoor loser, Rd 3 backdoor loser, Rd 2 backdoor loser *2, Rd1 backdoor loser * 2)

New League draw after every championship
top 4 places at end of League play off i.e. whoever finishes top across divs 1-4 play a set of League semi-finals & final
same for who finishes in second place across divisions - play off against other teams in second place in other divisions
and so on etc down to top four places

Net result - still 4 League trophies to play for. New novel draw after end of each championship. Weaker teams experience what it's like in Feb-April against top opposition and they will then be better prepared for provincial championships when they kick off in Summer.

MaigheoAbu (Mayo) - Posts: 343 - 20/06/2013 11:33:43    1411328

Don't agree with him at all. I much prefer the qualifiers than the provincial championships, and not just for my own county. I class the qualifiers and the National league as the most interesting series of matches because they are both All Ireland competitions. I'm not nearly as interested in watching Ulster teams beat each other. I get behind every Ulster county when the All Ire series arrives. I want to see the Northern counties (Ulster to a lesser extent) beat any county from the other 3 provinces. That's where my interest lies. I want to see the Northern Counties test themselves against the rest of my Country, not just in the vaccume of Ulster.

gaelantrim (Antrim) - Posts: 1616 - 20/06/2013 12:42:40    1411411

Tweak current format. After 1st rd in each prov, we have
A form of 4x8 - Lein8, Uls8, Muns/Conn4+4is8, and
Losers8. From here, provs play 3 KO rds, incl Muns/Conn
Champs playoff. This creates 3 unbeaten champs and
Qual Rds of 8, 16, 14 and 10, leading to AI QFs.
Works like a charm and we don't have half teams out in
1st rd KO, nor dead rubber round robin.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3442 - 20/06/2013 13:09:49    1411447

20/06/2013 13:09:49
omahant
Tweak current format. After 1st rd in each prov, we have
A form of 4x8 - Lein8, Uls8, Muns/Conn4+4is8, and
Losers8. From here, provs play 3 KO rds, incl Muns/Conn
Champs playoff. This creates 3 unbeaten champs and
Qual Rds of 8, 16, 14 and 10, leading to AI QFs.
Works like a charm and we don't have half teams out in
1st rd KO, nor dead rubber round robin.
No. why should, as under your proposal, Connacht and Munster be regarded as lower than Leinster/Ulster because they are smaller with lower number of countys.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 20/06/2013 13:34:13    1411480

Suggestion 1:

- All-Ireland championship Round 1: Div 3 teams vs Div 4 teams, maybe seeded, maybe not. Either way, 8 teams would be eliminated.
- All-Ireland championship Round 2: The 16 Div 1&2 teams to join the Round 1 winners; again, it may or may not be seeded. This would cut the remaining 24 teams down to 12. These 12 teams would qualify for the last 16 of the All-Ireland championship.
- Provincial Championships: Play to a finish as usual. The winners qualify for the last 16 of the All-Ireland championship.
- Last 16: Self-explanatory. Teams who have qualified by winning in Round 2 and by winning their provincial championship get a bye into the last 8.

Suggestion 2:

- All-Ireland championship Rounds 1, 2, and 3: All teams play in knockout games over three rounds, shrinking the 32 teams down to 4.
- Provincial Championships: Play to a finish as usual. The winners qualify for the last 8 of the All-Ireland championship.
- All-Ireland championship quarter-finals, semi's and final: Self-explanatory. Teams who have qualified by winning in Round 3 and by winning their provincial championship get a bye into the last 4.

Further remarks: In ANY sport, there will always be big boys who will dominate the opposition forever and ever. Look at the Portuguese football league, which has a Big 3, with teams from outside that winning the league on FEWER occasions than teams from outside Cork and Kerry have won Munster. Also, look at Tahiti getting walloped by Nigeria and in for more punishment tonight against Spain. No-one's suggesting (yet, anyway) that the Confederations Cup should be altered. What about the Grand Slams in tennis when Federer vs Nadal was the only show in town? I heard no calls to change the 128-player men's knockout Grand Slam tournaments in any way.

Of course, all the non-Fed/Nadal players, even those not good enough for the big tournaments, have their chances at lesser tournaments. Maybe re-introduce the Tommy Murphy Cup or the All-Ireland B Championship. There was nothing wrong with them. The TM Cup might have got bad press after Div 4 teams were denied a shot in the qualifiers, making it seem like a mire that no-one wanted to wallow in once access to the main event was abruptly terminated. That sort of thing ought to be remedied.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1310 - 20/06/2013 14:34:28    1411557

sorry man.. i don't get it. surely you would have same teams winning provincial titles as winning round 2 or round 3. you say 12 teams go into the last 16. and if I read you right then you say the remaining 4 places are given to the provincial winners.
or have I completely misunderstood.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5524 - 20/06/2013 14:45:27    1411575

This Donegal machine/system ain't gonna last for much longer, mchugh will be begging for the back door soon enough!

lilypad (Kildare) - Posts: 1363 - 20/06/2013 14:51:15    1411587

Change the provincials to a North/South/East/West configuration with 8 counties in each. Split each province/region in to two groups of 4. Winner of each group plays off in provincial final. That way every county is guaranteed at least 3 games and we get a meaningful provincial final where the winner goes through to AI Semi-final. Simples!

bubba83 (Dublin) - Posts: 333 - 20/06/2013 15:03:29    1411609

An how exactly do you decide who gets into each province - open draw? So Dublin could play in Munster ?

MaigheoAbu (Mayo) - Posts: 343 - 20/06/2013 15:26:45    1411630

To be honest I cant blame Muchugh for stating something like this.
As the system stands with the provincial championship it is a waste of time.

I think something like the basketball where teams on the east conf play each to produce the top 8 teams and west coast too which ultimately produces a final 16 knockout.

If Munster and Leinster combined and Ulster/Connaught and the top 4 teams from both groups would produce last 8 knockout.

It wouldnt necessarily have to be Munster/Leinster or Ulster/Connaught either, just 2 groups to produce a final 8 or 16 teams for knockout.
Teams would then get meaningful and plenty of games.

Of course there would still be meaningless games in this towards the end but doesnt that happen in the league already. To be honest it has been happening throughout the years in the All ireland Championship where Cork/Kerry , Galway/Mayo, Meath/Dublin have just gone through the motions in their provioncial championships until the final.

So prob going back to straight knockout is not the way to go but the current setup is getting fairly boring and unimportant until the 1/4 final stage

woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 20/06/2013 16:12:03    1411675

20/06/2013 14:45:27
s goldrick
County: Cavan
Posts: 2098

1411575
sorry man.. i don't get it. surely you would have same teams winning provincial titles as winning round 2 or round 3. you say 12 teams go into the last 16. and if I read you right then you say the remaining 4 places are given to the provincial winners.
or have I completely misunderstood.

No you're totally right; 12 teams come through the two rounds, and the other 4 teams are the provincial winners. If any of the provincial winners are already among the 12, then they get straight into the last 8. E.G. say that Kerry were the only teams in both categories. Then they'd get into the quarter-finals, and the other 14 teams (3 provincial winners and 11 from round 2) would play off for the other 7 spots.


Now. Another idea from me, separate from my earlier efforts. Combine the provincial structure with a 32-county format. So the draw would basically contain as many intraprovincial (not inter-provincial) pairings as possible in each round, although there will always be mismatches. How it would work in round 1 (excluding New York for convenience):
3 x Connacht vs Connacht
5 x Leinster vs Leinster
3 x Munster vs Munster
4 x Ulster vs Ulster
1 x Ulster vs Leinster
where "3 x Connacht vs Connacht" means three ties involving a Connacht county vs a Connacht county, etc. Round 2 would definitely then have 3 Connacht counties left, 5 from Leinster, 3 from Munster, 4 from Ulster, and one more from either Leinster or Ulster.

Therefore Round 2 would look like this, assuming the Ulster vs Leinster clash was won by the Ulster team:
1 x Connacht vs Connacht
2 x Leinster vs Leinster
1 x Munster vs Munster
2 x Ulster vs Ulster

The remaining four counties (if there's 5 counties from Leinster in Round 2) would be one from each province. If there's an extra Leinster team and one fewer Ulster team, there would be 3 x Leinster vs Leinster and a clash between the a Connacht team and a Munster team.

Round 3 would be the quarter-finals, and again, teams from the same province would be paired up where possible. Last county standing in each province wins its provincial championship.

Cons:
1) This, of course, looks like a mess.
2) Say you have Mayo vs Galway, and Roscommon vs Kerry. If the Rossies get beaten, then they're out of their provincial championship courtesy of a team from another province. Also, if the Mayo vs Galway game was played first, the winners suddenly become champions by default. Of course, the inter-provincial [sic] games could be played first anyway...

Pro:
The upshot of it all though is that you have provincial championships encased inside a 32-county knockout All-Ireland.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1310 - 20/06/2013 16:59:30    1411710

Lower teams playing each other first is a good idea[3 and 4 division) gives some more games and builds a bit of momentum.
id give tahiti more chance against spain in the soccer than any team beating cork and kerry in Munster.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 20/06/2013 21:30:13    1411940

The qualifier system should remain in place, although changes are definitely required to the way it works.

I like the Idea of seeding the National League, so the top teams could be kept separated until the Semi final or final. This would stop what happened in Ulster this year happening again. To have Donegal, Tyrone, Down and Derry all cramped into one side of the draw was weird, considering they were the 4 highest ranked Ulster teams in the National league.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3057 - 21/06/2013 12:54:36    1412169

Play the Leinster Championship as the "O'Byrne Cup" games pre-season.

Feck the colleges...Who cares if they don't get glamour ties against county teams.

Let the League feed into the Championship.

Just a more streamlined better system for intercounty players to be honest. And would make the league meaningful

Straight knockout is a disaster.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 21/06/2013 13:01:19    1412180

Open draw knockout championship.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2592 - 21/06/2013 13:28:45    1412222

MaigheoAbu
County: Mayo
Posts: 22

1411630 An how exactly do you decide who gets into each province - open draw? So Dublin could play in Munster ?


North/South/East/West based on geography..instead of traditional provinces. The big problem at the moment is the imbalance in the provincials. If we could even up the numbers and run two groups of 4 in each it would do away with the need for the back door too.

bubba83 (Dublin) - Posts: 333 - 21/06/2013 15:43:10    1412393