The problem with getting rid of the backdoor is you effectively end a load of counties season after ONE game.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 12122 - 19/06/2013 13:13:03    1410674

Why not have 8 groups with 4 in each then the top 2 go through to round 2, that way it would take a max of 7 games to win an All- Ireland. The other way of having 4 groups with 8 teams in each is to much cause it would be too many games and the interest would be gone once one of the bigger counties pulls ahead at the top after 3-4 games. Or maybe we should leave it the same and Mayo can keep on winning Connacht for the foreseeable future.....sounds good to me!

Da_Stephenite (Mayo) - Posts: 55 - 19/06/2013 13:22:41    1410691

People keep coming up with solutions to every team playing a certain amount of games. But did this argument not come up because of the one-sided nature of the provincial series? Nothing will eradicate that. Keep things the way they are now, the best teams in Ireland will end up in the AI semi-finals and the best team will win the AI. Regardless of whatever system the championship has the best teams will always end up challenging for Sam and the weaker teams won't and will likely receive thrashings from the better teams.

MourneArmy (Down) - Posts: 1787 - 19/06/2013 13:29:31    1410697

I think that there should be a round of 32 open draw.London/New York to play off for place 32 if Kilkenny opt out.In the round of 32 teams play home and away.If each team wins one match then a deciding match would be played at a neutral venue. From the round of 16 on it is a one legged knock out tournament to the final.Advantages: Every team will play at least two matches so players are not training all year for one match.Every team is guaranteed a home championship match each season.Every team gets two chances.Provincial disparaties are eradicated.Chance for 4 match epics like Dublin v Meath that lit up the 1991 Championship. Disadvantages no scope for provincial championship.

REDANDBLACK29 (Down) - Posts: 57 - 19/06/2013 13:31:50    1410700

Open draw knockout championship with no back door.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2592 - 19/06/2013 13:37:39    1410705

Da_Stephenite The problem with that idea is that a group stage will not change the fact that we will have one sided games, for example if Mayo end up in a group with Waterford, it will have be of no benefit to either team. Also, what if a team wins two group games, and in their final game, they play a team who has lost both their games, it renders the game pointless.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1664 - 19/06/2013 13:58:32    1410723

MourneArmy
County: Down
Posts: 1331

1410697
People keep coming up with solutions to every team playing a certain amount of games. But did this argument not come up because of the one-sided nature of the provincial series? Nothing will eradicate that. Keep things the way they are now, the best teams in Ireland will end up in the AI semi-finals and the best team will win the AI. Regardless of whatever system the championship has the best teams will always end up challenging for Sam and the weaker teams won't and will likely receive thrashings from the better teams.

The problem is that this is not true! How do you know the best teams are winning? Because they won? Well thats basically just data mining and not finding flaws in the system. The point is if the system is setup to avoid having a flawed winner. In my opinion it is not. It is better how it used to be yes, but it is still not fair.

Take the system the way it used to be. Hypothetically say there were 5 teams in Ulster that were better than every team in Munster in a given year. But only 1 team comes out of Ulster, and 1 comes out of Munster. So you dont get the best teams reaching the latter stages.

Now it is better with the back door but still not fair because the provinces are so skewed in terms of numbers and in terms of quality. There should be, if not exactly the same, then a pretty similar number of teams in each group. Secondly, teams in each group should be ranked or seeded to keep each group fair. The province system does not allow for these fluctuations in quality of teams. It is too rigid and allows certain teams ease of access to the 1/4 finals without having to ramp up training whereas others are training flat out from the start to the end of the season.

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1450 - 19/06/2013 14:05:03    1410731

I am not sure if this format needs to be changed. The back door helped Donegal build an experienced group of players, sure enough McGuinness masterminded the recent success but Donegals run through the backdoor on a couple of occasions surely kept the interest alive instead of just being knocked out in Ulster.
The backdoor system has given my own county Westmeath plenty to cheer about and has helped the rebuild of our team. Even to make the All Ireland quarter finals with no realistic hope of winning an All-Ireland in my opinion is very valuable. Young lads get to travel around the country supporting there teams in the Championship and passing down a mentality of winning. I don't see a hugely pressing issue. Ok a gap has opened but there is 6 teams close to each other and other teams building to close that gap. Any team has the chance of doing well in the championship because of the back door system, I say keep it cos it gives lads more of an incentive in training through the winter months. Very Dramatic of McHugh to be saying, 'It could be too late'! At least when Brolly makes the headlines people tend to agree with him.

Jack Daniels (Westmeath) - Posts: 152 - 19/06/2013 14:31:07    1410750

What harm would it do on a 2 year trial basis? It wont break a lads chance of winning Sam.

crossfieldball (Galway) - Posts: 650 - 19/06/2013 14:32:20    1410753

Who gives a damn what mc hugh thinks ! Being part of an intercounty set up takes up so much time and effort that to have your summer over after 1 game you would have to think is it all worth the sacrifices of the previous 7 or 8 months ! At least getting another game prolongs the summer for some of these teams ! Ok we all know theres nothing like the excitement that championship football brings when it lose and your out but at the first stages of the champo i think its only fair that guys that have put their lives on hold for half the year get a chance at redemption !

DUBJOHN (Dublin) - Posts: 952 - 19/06/2013 14:51:46    1410770

DUBJOHN

McHugh does not want to go back to the old system. He says to give an 8x4 group format a go, which would give all counties 3 games

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1450 - 19/06/2013 15:01:25    1410781

How anyone can say this competition is not flawed is bizarre, teams sitting around for weeks waiting on a game, while losing teams hone and refine their squads and teams for a better stab at the first round winners. In principal its great - given everyone a few more games and extending the seaso. But as a competition imagine selling that structure to another sport you'd be sectioned.

And none of this is helped by the way the game has evolved on the pitch, with iffy attendances. The GAA would want to be very careful with its games as there is a tipping point. But ultimately the GAA in my opinion is just ill-equipped to do anything radical and save itself. But to suggest it doesn't need to be restructured is a bit like Nero with his fiddle.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4968 - 19/06/2013 15:02:58    1410784

only good game so far Donegal v Tyrone ? What about Louth/ Wexford Meath/ Wicklow and Offaly v Kildare was also not bad. Every decade since sixties have had two to three teams dominate for spells. Sixties Galway, Meath and Kerry. Seventies was all about Dubs and Kerry. Eighties Kerry/Meath and Cork. Without backdoor Donegal would still be in the so called wilderness.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2248 - 19/06/2013 15:23:15    1410803

18/06/2013 21:29:56
AthCliath
why not have two championships. one for first and second division teams and one for 3 and 4 division teams.
At the end of the league where you finish determines which championship you enter. put importance on a competitive league.
would make counties give the league a real go and there wouldnt be that many lobsided matches.
3 and 4 division teams could have a championship that they could genuinely believe they could win.
No No No No No
That should never and will never happen.
Why create two tiers and help the stronger sides.
Change structure to put more importance on the league but mot to that extent.
Lower division countys would never agree. Look at what happened to Tommy Murphy Cup

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 19/06/2013 15:30:08    1410812

19/06/2013 11:28:27
beansycpn
I agree- the back door should be scrapped! I never agreed with it in first place- yes it gives weaker counties another bite, but the bigger picture is that it just gives the stronger counties a better chance of winning sam!
Look at how many traditionally stronger teams have won sam from back door! Once stronger teams know they have the safety net of back door, and they come up against a big provincial rival, the intensity of championship football is lost, and sometimes even play weaker teams to utilize panel for further down the line. Not to mention momentum gathered from playing back door games every week.
And the worst of it is, football is for the most part pretty awful to watch the last 10 years, since armagh and tyrone introduced the blanket defense tactic, and kildare their handpassing game before that, and now with donegal and mayo perfecting the blanket defense and their cynical tackling the last few years. I can't believe people paid €80-odd to attend that final!
4 points to immediately improve football:
1. get rid of back door, and at worst, bring back tommy murphy cup, or some kind of alternative (possibly keep provincials and then do a tennis style seeded knockout format based on provincial campaign. but, although this means more intercounty games, clubs will probably suffer)
2. reduce consecutive hand passes to 3-4, like amount of steps running with ball in hand. this should reduce 14 men behind ball and make a more open, freeflowing game
3. ban free kicks going backwards, and frees at goal taken off ground
4. reduce amount of intercounty training to maybe twice a week, as football is more about fitness and strength than skill these days
ps i like the above idea of 2 championships- 1 for division 1&2, and another for 3&4, AS WELL AS provincials, which would put more importance on league at same time, but sure weaker teams won't want that either
Why scrap the backdoor.
Certainly don't think intensity of any games is lost in provincial championship games where sides know if they lose they still have another shot in the qualifiers. When do you see countys fielding weakened sides in championship games
Whole season structure should be changed. The 4 provincial championships should be stand alone competitions with no relevance to all Ireland. League and All Ireland championship should maybe be combined in some way with every county getting 6/7 games minimum.
All points on free kicks, handpasses etc are for a different thread to be honest.
Don't agree with reducing inter county training to twice a week. standards would drop if that happened.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 19/06/2013 15:46:11    1410832

19/06/2013 11:53:48
shea
I agree a change is needed but not the champ lge version,i dont see why a team after losing 2 games would want a 3rd...Plus a 2nd tier competition would not work.
Regarding playing rules i think they are OK at the moment the only rule change i would like is only the midfielders allowed inside the 45's during a kick out,That would force teams to hold the positions and open the game up,It would also be easily implenmented by the refs
They are top class players. They will play to get a win. Not to have zero wins for the year. Play for pride.
Don't see how less intercounty games is the way forward in any way

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 19/06/2013 15:48:12    1410837

seadog54
County: Meath
Posts: 4

1410803
only good game so far Donegal v Tyrone ? What about Louth/ Wexford Meath/ Wicklow and Offaly v Kildare was also not bad. Every decade since sixties have had two to three teams dominate for spells. Sixties Galway, Meath and Kerry. Seventies was all about Dubs and Kerry. Eighties Kerry/Meath and Cork. Without backdoor Donegal would still be in the so called wilderness.
_______________________
How do you figure that one, Donegal have won both of their All Irelands as Ulster champions?

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 19/06/2013 15:52:20    1410840

Lads the bottom line here is no matter what formula is proposed for the championship someone is always going to voice opposition to it we all have our own ideas about the way we'd like the champo to be run but its very hard to get everyone to agree on one specific way of running it !(ps my preference is to have a b championship as in when a team loses their first champo match they go into the b championship which would be run on a knockout basis culminating in an all ireland b final that way we could still retain our provincial championships and teams wouldnt have the big gap between games also it would mean every team is guaranteed at least 2 games in the championship !

DUBJOHN (Dublin) - Posts: 952 - 19/06/2013 15:54:53    1410844

seadog54
County: Meath
only good game so far Donegal v Tyrone ? What about Louth/ Wexford Meath/ Wicklow and Offaly v Kildare was also not bad. Every decade since sixties have had two to three teams dominate for spells. Sixties Galway, Meath and Kerry. Seventies was all about Dubs and Kerry. Eighties Kerry/Meath and Cork. Without backdoor Donegal would still be in the so called wilderness.


This is very confusing, You're not M.McHugh by any chance are you!

TheGateKeeper (Tyrone) - Posts: 2843 - 19/06/2013 15:56:06    1410846

19/06/2013 13:31:50
REDANDBLACK29
I think that there should be a round of 32 open draw.London/New York to play off for place 32 if Kilkenny opt out.In the round of 32 teams play home and away.If each team wins one match then a deciding match would be played at a neutral venue. From the round of 16 on it is a one legged knock out tournament to the final.Advantages: Every team will play at least two matches so players are not training all year for one match.Every team is guaranteed a home championship match each season.Every team gets two chances.Provincial disparaties are eradicated.Chance for 4 match epics like Dublin v Meath that lit up the 1991 Championship. Disadvantages no scope for provincial championship.
That would only be an ok proposal. Only two games for countys. what if current division 4 countys drew division 1 sides. 2 big defeats. would it work well enough?
Plenty of scope for provincial championships no matter what is proposed as change.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 19/06/2013 16:05:36    1410857