artisan do you believe aaron cunningham and his father? A failure to answer the question will indicate that you don't.

Tom1916 (Armagh) - Posts: 2001 - 03/12/2012 15:00:41    1305801

what do people think a suitable punishment for racist behaviour is, I see in previous incidents peopel received an 8 week ban. I personally feel if the GAA want it eradicated they need much stiffer penalties.

Rosineri1 (UK) - Posts: 2099 - 03/12/2012 15:04:17    1305804

Immediate expulsion and a life time ban from the GAA is the only punishment for this behaviour. As an aside Aaron Cunningham is a proud Irishman born and reared with a gra for his country and culture.

Tom1916 (Armagh) - Posts: 2001 - 03/12/2012 15:07:35    1305806

Im afraid to say theres a lot of nasty stuff creeping into GAA. Racism,hostilty between supporters etc.

kerry74 (Kerry) - Posts: 1354 - 03/12/2012 16:15:24    1305867

Tom1916,
The best punishment for incidents like this is to punish the team.I know its unfair on a lot of people but if teams started getting kicked out of competitions etc you wouldent be long seeing this sort of crap stopped.

juniorbsub (Wexford) - Posts: 646 - 03/12/2012 16:37:50    1305904

I can see your point juniorbsub but i was always against the collective punishment, i don't even think fines are the right way forward. However you could be right that it is the only solution as it will encourage fllow teammates etc to stamp it out from within, a national debate is needed on this issue.

Tom1916 (Armagh) - Posts: 2001 - 03/12/2012 16:59:52    1305916

That was my thinking Tom.The english soccer fans werent long cleaning up their act when Uefa started banning them.

juniorbsub (Wexford) - Posts: 646 - 03/12/2012 17:11:45    1305926

quite true juniorbsub, its definitely worth considering, it's shocking to see some of the comments on here and other places condoning this behaviour. At the end of the day we are all GAA people who should be coming together for the common good to root these people out.

Tom1916 (Armagh) - Posts: 2001 - 03/12/2012 17:37:21    1305942

I think that would be pretty counter-productive myself. The emphasis here is on the individual. Sure punishing teams will make the person feel they let their club down but this isn't about what happens on the field. Clubs need to be encouraged to co-operate with these inquiries and not feel they are guilty by association if one of their members acts like this. Punishments just need to be increased dramatically from what happened in Wexford. We probably all have members of the immigrant community in our own clubs and I would hate for a few loud mouthed morons to make them feel that the GAA is somewhere they are unwelcome.

doublehop (Kildare) - Posts: 4172 - 03/12/2012 17:38:26    1305944

sorry for asking, friends, but I'm new here: what are the racist incidents you are referring to?

pieter (Cork) - Posts: 22 - 03/12/2012 17:47:35    1305999

artisan
County: Down
Posts: 1258

IF the ref heard it, yes he can deal with it there and then, as far as I know he can only book the player unless its a second offence and then send him off. Maybe a ref around here can clarify it? Can a ref send a player off for racial abuse? I don't think so, he can book for foul and abusive language but can he send someone off fro racial abuse?
However if a player came up to him and told him what another player said he can only note it in his report but what the hell can anyone do about that? unless there is a witness. I still the GAA have a lot of catching up to do with this one.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4953 - 03/12/2012 18:08:04    1306008

doublehop
County: Kildare
Posts: 2528

Clubs need to be encouraged to co-operate with these inquiries and not feel they are guilty by association if one of their members acts like this.

I disgaree doublehop. I think if a player or supporter racially abuses an opponent, then the whole club IS guilty by association, and I would have no problem letting them know it.
I would like to think that if a teammate of mine ever racially abused an opponent, I would try to shut him up. But that is probably me dreaming from behind a keyboard. In reality, if a teammate starts acting the eejit on the field, most of us will just walk away and let them at it. No point in making a fuss about it.
If there was a chance that the team would forfeit the game, and be thrown out of the competition for it, then we would probably be a lot quicker to police the problem ourselves. I guarantee that it would only take one or two instances of teams being banned, before clubs would start taking more responsibility for their players actions, and before the players themselves started to shut up their teammates who were starting with this sort of stuff.

anfearbeag (Meath) - Posts: 1134 - 03/12/2012 18:20:58    1306015

Tom, I don't doubt the sincerity of the complaint, that doesn't mean it happened - wires could have been crossed. If the case is deemed to have occured, then by all means punish those responsible. My concern is that Kilcoo players are entitled to a fair hearing without a media frenzy.

This is now the second time an Armagh player has made allegations of racism to the assembled press, the first time Armagh county board had to take a step back and admit they'd gone too far, so let's see what happens in this case.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 03/12/2012 18:24:40    1306018

I know what you mean anfearbeag but I really think there's danger there that clubs would try and stand by their players and protect them to save their players rather than accept their punishments. Clubs are already doing that in instances where serious foul play and violent assaults have occurred. As you said it'd be nice to think clubs would act differently but it's hard to know if they would.

This is now the second time an Armagh player has made allegations of racism to the assembled press, the first time Armagh county board had to take a step back and admit they'd gone too far, so let's see what happens in this case.
The term of what defines 'racial abuse' was what was up for discussion in that instance. I don't think that can be argued about in this instance. If it was said it was racial abuse. Ciaran McKeever reacted at the time to whatever was said to him, after he was sent off the board made a statement on his behalf. Aaron Cunningham has made these allegations himself and his integrity should be respected until proven otherwise rather than trying to smear him with a completely different incident.

doublehop (Kildare) - Posts: 4172 - 03/12/2012 19:01:39    1306026

Whether the board issued a statement on McKeever's behalf or he said it himself is neither here nor there. The crux of my argument is that accusations should not be publicly aired, the Association investigates and makes a judgement having given the accused an opportunity to defend themselves. That's how the rule book works. I'm entilted to draw comparisons between the incidents because once again claims have been made via media outlets instead of the proper channels.

I have not smeared Aaron, earlier I said his sincerity was not open to question. However, he still has to bite his lip until the GAA reach a decision. The only people that have been smeared today are the players and fans of Kilcoo GAC, they're entitled to a hearing first, a fair hearing, free from a media witch-hunt.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 03/12/2012 19:50:23    1306054

Which is worse.... the Sledging or the Racism. I think lots of GAA players go out with the intention of Sledging opponents in an attempt to put them off their game and maybe get them to retaliate. The Dubs were said to be the instigators of Sledging in the 60s with Country type Slagging which has now become not a very nice 'part of the game'. Girlfriends, sisters, mothers, garda, freestaters, nordies, culchies, sexual orientation..... you name it.... it has been said. A Racist remark if heard by an official is not a red card offence that i know of. A yellow card may be given for ''to threaten or use abusive or provocative language or gestures to an opponent ... or team mate''. So where are WEE at now. Specific Rules must be put in place to let Referees Firstly and then Governing Bodies to deal with Racism and Racist Remarks. Club codes of conduct would obsviously be a starting point. But as is widely known their are a small percentage in our game with a win at all costs attitude who will seek out all posibilities to gain any 'advantage'.

kikfada (Louth) - Posts: 2091 - 03/12/2012 19:53:41    1306056

When my club played Kilcoo their players and supporters were just so warm and friendly. Actually no wait I'm wrong. Sorry I get confused sometimes. Never mind

Adler (Monaghan) - Posts: 754 - 03/12/2012 20:40:24    1306090

Doublehop - I kind of see what you are saying. But surely a main part of the problem is that at the moment clubs (and counties) will automatically back their man to the last, regardless of what they have done. The reason is that, at the moment, they can - there is no punishment for the club involved so it makes no difference to them whether they back their player/selector/supporter or not.The worst that happens to a club is that they are without a player for a few months, and maybe get a small fine. The long-term benefits you get for standing-by-your-man in terms of club loyalty and support, far out-weigh the negatives for the club.

Now lets say you introduce stiff punishments for clubs whose players are involved in racial abuse, or who assault the officials, or whose subs/mentors/supporters come onto a field to assault players. They might think twice then about backing their player to the hilt. Maybe they might come out and completely condemn the player/official/supporter who has commited the act. Maybe the next time a player starts abusing an opponent, his teammates might shut him up. Maybe the next time a supporter goes to run onto the field, his friends and neighbours might make an effort to stop him.
I agree, they may not - they may still try to pass the buck and blame everyone but themselves. In that case, sod them - they deserve all the punishment they get. And if they do it again, ban them again - for twice as long. Eventually the penny will drop.

If it was felt that an immediate ban for the club was excessive, why not ban the club for a year, but suspend the punishment for five years. If they don't clean their act up sharpish, then they get whats coming.

anfearbeag (Meath) - Posts: 1134 - 04/12/2012 12:43:33    1306274

artisan
County: Down

" they're entitled to a hearing first, a fair hearing, free from a media witch-hunt. "

100% spot-on artisan. It is fine to discuss a general problem like racism, or violence etc on a site like this or in the media, but if a player or club are accused of a specific offence, they are entitled to proper due process, without the papers or websites acting as judge, jury and executioner.

An allegation has been made, that allegation should (and will) be dealt with correctly, giving everyone a fair chance to give their side of the story. Until then, it benefits no-one, (including Aaron Cunningham and Crossmaglen), to have this smeared over the back pages of the daily rags. Let calm heads prevail.

anfearbeag (Meath) - Posts: 1134 - 04/12/2012 12:51:01    1306283

Appalling stuff what saddens me most is that Joey Cunningham in an article I read today voiced what I had thought, Aaron doesn't even look black. So this is so engrained they are actually having a go at Joey one generation on. He also voiced disturbing stuff about his nephew who plays for Forkhill also getting sustained abuse - his parents are livid and Joey's advice is bite your lip and wait for something to be done.

Yes these are allegations but if verified it needs rooted out and the individuals expelled. There were people in he crowd who could identify the culprits - so silence is complicity here.
Joey also spoke about the number of people he knows from Kilcoo who have apologised and a board member who was speechless. All very sad Kilcoo as far as I know is a football obsessed village so when they attain the lofty heights some idiots destroy it. Unfair to punish the whole club unless there is a sense the club are not cooperating but the individuals - zero tolerance.
Time for leadership from the GAA.

Tyronetim (Tyrone) - Posts: 1254 - 04/12/2012 19:10:55    1306489