GlensMan89
County: Antrim
Posts: 28

Sacrifices were always on the agenda. The bottom line is that it make obvious commercial sense for the GAA to have the new stadium in Belfast. Whether we like it or not the Association needs to look outside match days to keep the revenue flowing into the coffers and that was probably on the list of pros against the two cons which have been posted by the descentors on here. I know that fact won't suit everyone and lead to people stating that the "ordinary man" wasn't considered or consulted. I think it would be naive of any of us to think that due consideration wasn't given to all of the arguments on here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but maybe we should reserve judgment until we have had the chance to sample the finished product. I bet you one thing now though, 150 mile round journeys and an hour or two on the road won't be keeping any of you away from it when your own county manage to get there.

I have for one have not suggested fans won't travel to watch their team play. My points have asked the question "Why should they have to travel so far?".
Reserving Judgement until you sit in it is a flawed argument. It is too late to argue against something if your sitting in it, It is more effective to strike before such a mistake is made.

Forget creating a revenue stream for the GAA outside of match days.
What exactly are the fans doing when they buy their match tickets and club lotto tickets? Yes, Financing the GAA and supporting the GAA. We travel great distances to see our teams, and pay helfty ticket prices to see a sport were players dont get a wage for all their hard work. How much money is enough? What is the revenue point were the GAA can stand back and say "Feck it we have enough money now".

The truth is there will never be enough. Revenue is just a stupid excuse used to try n sway people into favouring City Stadiums (Oh do you know It can also hold parties, events, conferences, meetings etc ).

Why not build the stadium in a suitable location, and build a hotel in the City to host the other stuff.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 23/10/2012 20:34:12    1287320

'In an Ideal world, yes Athlone would geographically be the most suitable venue for Irelands largest Sports Stadium.

You have to ask yourself what really are the benefits of staging big GAA games in Dublin or Belfast. I can out of Clones and back on the open road in well under half the time it takes to leave Dublin. The vast majority of GAA fans do not stay over and travel home after games. So for that reason alone, we should consider the sensible options ahead of ego driven city option.

I live in Derry City, actually very near Celtic park. Is it the best possible location for the home of Derry GAA, I would have to say no.
Parking is brutally bad for large crowds and the Brandywell gets bigger crowds to Derry City games, than its neighbouring Celtic Park normally gets.
The ground should be in a more accessible location for the droves of Derry fans from around the county, who easily outnumber the fans from within the city.
Derry is Ireland's 4th biggest city after Dublin, Belfast and Cork. Did having Celtic park near the City centre help build a stronger GAA base in the City? No it didnt. '

Gary, so to follow your argument through to its logical conclusion then all sports venues should be built and played in central locations. In Australia they should build their stadia in the middle of the outback, all european tournaments should be held in switzerland and african ones in the sahara. Im afraid your argument on location doesnt stack up in comparison to where sports stadia throughout the world are constucted never mind ireland. They are built in the largest cities with the largest populations regardless of geographical location.

In answer to your question about Derry City, yes it should be the home of Derry GAA. There are indeed many issues there to be addressed with the most pressing one being the almost complete lack of interest in the GAA in the city, although I believe Steelstown are now in Division 1.
As for this notion that Belfast is somehow a GAA wilderness well lets look at the facts.
It has produced all ireland club football champions, all ireland club camogie champions, all ireland club hurling finalists and numerous all ireland handball champions.
There are around 20 clubs in Belfast with the bulk of those competing at the top end of the leagues in both hurling and football. At underage level the all county minor, u16 and i think even u14 titles reside there.
Yes there is work to be done when it comes to promoting the Ulster Final when it arrives. Im sure the Ulster Council/Antrim County Board and surrounding businesses are already well aware of this.

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 24/10/2012 10:50:34    1287437

GaryMc82

I'm not trying to dismiss your comments but you can't seriously believe that by buying club lotto tickets you are in some way directly responsible for the £15 million pound investment that has been put up by the GAA for the Casement Park project. The give away should be in the name "Club" lotto tickets, which are exactly that, for a clubs' benefit.

I agree that the money from match day tickets are a substantial source of revenue which is fan dependent, but again, outside the later stages of the AI championship the admission costs are fairly reasonable and I am out of work at the minute. Look, I am not trying to change your opinion as you are as entitled to as the next man but I don't think you are taking in all the facts. I suggest you look at the GAA 2011 accounts. Championship attendances down 10%, commercial revenue down by 4.5 million euro, gate receipts dropped by 2 million euro from 2010. Overall drop of 11 million euro into the coffers over the space of a year. The recession has affected everyone, you, me and the Association. I know first hand from trying to raise even a few hundred quid from sponsors for my own club has been close to impossible as belts tighten. Now I am no great lover of how some things are handled by the top brass on occasion but credit where credit is due. 15 million investment from 47 million turnover on one project is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure we would be all be criticising them if they had kept that 47 million in the vault if they handed out some excuse about future security or the like.

I understand your points, but the GAA boast about a reinvestment level of 80% of turnover. My gripe would be about how the 80% filters down to grassroots but that is a whole different issue from this as there would be no Casement Park project without the GAA investment of 15 million. That will probably open a can of worms and lead to the cries of "why didn't they?" but the fact is if the GAA hadn't invested the money then we would have kissed goodbye to the money from Stormont. I'm going to leave it at that I think. I won't be tuning into the next episode of Location, Location, Location with Phil, Kirstie, Derry, Donegal, Tyrone.............so best of luck and I look forward to seeing you in Andytown soon.

GlensMan89 (Antrim) - Posts: 54 - 24/10/2012 11:01:57    1287443

GlensMan89
County: Antrim
Posts: 29

1286435
Samsforthehills
County: Donegal
Posts: 391

"Marginally important Ulster Championship games"!!! Awash with success and now the Ulster Championship games are marginally important. Obviously a bout of selective memory from your good self. I wonder what reaction you would get if you asked Jim McGuinness if he thought that any Ulster Championship game was marginally important?

Stop getting your knickers in a twist. You don't need to explain the importance of the Ulster championship to me or anyone else from Donegal.

What I simply meant by that comment was whether Casement was now going to be the de facto base for any game even those of marginal importance (I.e those games NOT the final/high profile semi) Where ordinarily those games could be played either at a county ground or somewhere liek clones.

It's a valid concern. Is casement going to end up the 'go to ground' for all games to help it suceed as has been seen with Wembley in the UK amongst others. Donegal v Tyrone in the quarters is a good example. Is this the type of game that's going to be dragged to casement.

Samsforthehills (Donegal) - Posts: 1075 - 24/10/2012 11:41:56    1287459

Belfast isn't even the true heart of Antrim GAA, why don't they build it in cushendal or around therer somewhere!
Will the Ulster stadium inn Belfast upgrade the interest in GAA in Belfast, converting the m-united/celtic, rugger lot
to GAA, I don't think so, its all politics, a provincial disgrace, it should be in Omagh/ Dungannon, which is the heart
of Gaelic Ulster. Tir eoghain abu.

TheGateKeeper (Tyrone) - Posts: 2843 - 24/10/2012 12:31:06    1287487

although I'm not Belfast's biggest fan, GAA is very strong in the city. that's sh*te talk gatekeeper

wise_guy (Tyrone) - Posts: 1584 - 24/10/2012 12:37:20    1287495

We are all entitled to an opinion wise_guy; you for one have enough of them! ;)

TheGateKeeper (Tyrone) - Posts: 2843 - 24/10/2012 15:41:29    1287646

Yes that's right Tyrone is the heart of GAA in Ulster ever since 2003

KevHill (Antrim) - Posts: 271 - 24/10/2012 16:01:19    1287670

bumpernut
County: Antrim
Posts: 513

1287437
Gary, so to follow your argument through to its logical conclusion then all sports venues should be built and played in central locations. In Australia they should build their stadia in the middle of the outback, all european tournaments should be held in switzerland and african ones in the sahara. Im afraid your argument on location doesnt stack up in comparison to where sports stadia throughout the world are constucted never mind ireland. They are built in the largest cities with the largest populations regardless of geographical location.

Well technically It wasn't my stated argument to begin with, I was actually replying to a comment along the lines of "I suppose Croke Park should have been built in Athlone in that case". You Just compared the province of Ulster to the Austrailian outback and the Continents of Europe and Africa. Im afraid your argument on location doesn't stack up in any comparison, Be it geographical scale, political boundary, travel distances by road, populated surrounding area's in relation to the stadium location (Note: Sahara desert for Africa!).

We have a limited amount of large stadiums In Ireland, this is because counties/Clubs can't afford to build large stadiums for themselves. Belfast isn't so big that it should be the natural option for any shared venue between all 9 Ulster counties. The Province has a significant population to the North, West and South also, and their needs need to be met also.

Now Just to clarify my comments on Croke Park/Athlone. If Ireland had no roads linking any of its top town/City area's and a road architect was hired to design and build the most efficient motorway travel routes from scratch, the road map of Ireland would look slightly different. Instead of all motorways leading to Dublin, We would likely see a main Dublin to Galway, and Derry to Cork road network. Athlone would be the hub of such a network, and would naturally be in the running to stage major events because of its Ideal location to all corners of Ireland. Even without the North/South motorway, China have selected Athlone to be the location for their business hub.

Give me some solid logical reasons why it should be in Belfast City, and then seperately give me some solid and logical reasons it should not be in a Central Location in Ulster?

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 24/10/2012 21:05:53    1287867

GaryMc82
Some interesting facts for you about the size of the 20 biggest cities or towns in Ireland
2nd Belfast 274,678 people
6th biggest is Lisburn 79,246
8th is Newtownabbey 64,412
9th Bangor 60,957
10th Craigavon 59,713
11th Castlereagh 57,197
17th Carrickfergus 29,767
18th Ballymena 29,020
19th Newry 27,849
20th Newtownards 27,799
I left Derry off the list as all the rest are within an hours drive of Belfast and sorry but Derrys 85,126 is 5th biggest these days as Limerick is the 4th biggest with 91,119. The A5 Bypass plans of Omagh have been shelved with no dates for it to start so no bypass stadium without a bypass. There has been plans since 1980's for country bound slip roads at blacks road which will reduce the match day traffic build up at Kennedy way, sadly not getting started to 2018.

lufty (Antrim) - Posts: 77 - 25/10/2012 13:31:27    1288107

lufty
antrim

6th biggest is Lisburn 79,246
8th is Newtownabbey 64,412
9th Bangor 60,957
10th Craigavon 59,713
11th Castlereagh 57,197
17th Carrickfergus 29,767
18th Ballymena 29,020
20th Newtownards 27,799

LOL
All of which are traditional GAA strongholds Lufty, eh?!
LOL

TheGateKeeper (Tyrone) - Posts: 2843 - 25/10/2012 18:00:19    1288325

lufty
County: Antrim
Posts: 72

1288107 GaryMc82
Some interesting facts for you about the size of the 20 biggest cities or towns in Ireland
2nd Belfast 274,678 people
6th biggest is Lisburn 79,246
8th is Newtownabbey 64,412
9th Bangor 60,957
10th Craigavon 59,713
11th Castlereagh 57,197
17th Carrickfergus 29,767
18th Ballymena 29,020
19th Newry 27,849
20th Newtownards 27,799
I left Derry off the list as all the rest are within an hours drive of Belfast and sorry but Derrys 85,126 is 5th biggest these days as Limerick is the 4th biggest with 91,119. The A5 Bypass plans of Omagh have been shelved with no dates for it to start so no bypass stadium without a bypass. There has been plans since 1980's for country bound slip roads at blacks road which will reduce the match day traffic build up at Kennedy way, sadly not getting started to 2018.

Mid-year population estimates in 2010 report the population of Derry~Londondery to be 109,826
http://www.ilex-urc.com/Citi-Stats/People/Census-of-population.aspx

The figure is confirmed in 2011 to be 109,800 approx
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/derry-s-population-on-the-rise-1-2826424

Limerick City boundary has a population of approx 57,000 people, If you were to Include all surrounding Limerick boroughs you would reach 91,119 .
Derry City boundary has a population of approx 84,000 people, Include the boroughs and you get approx 110,000.
So by that estimate, I would say Derry is still the 4th largest City in Ireland.

The A5 has not been shelved. It has been temporarily been put on hold due to a legal challenge by the "Alternative A5 Alliance" on September 10th 2012, which claims that a full and proper environmental Impact study was not carried out properly. And by "put on hold", I refer to the fact it was put on hold until the case is assessed at a hearing next month ( November). With hold up's set to cost approx £10m per month, I think this case will be resolved quickly and work will continue.
The Alternative A5 alliance group are pushing for a deal that they wont have to pay court costs if they lose, which isnt looking great. That would say to me that they lack the financial power to hold this project up for long.

Love the list of towns. I'd love to see you do a survey of all those towns and see how many people support the building of a GAA stadium in east Ulster. Better still, why not see what percentage of the population in places like Lisburn, Carrickfergus etc support the GAA in any shape or form. Should make for Interesting reading.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 25/10/2012 21:39:56    1288463

Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

If we look at the population of Ulster it sits at around 2,106,296. Belfast City has a population of 267,742 but the Greater Belfast urban area (as Derry gets to include its Boroughs.. :-) )has a population of 493,000 which accounts for 23.4% of the population of the 9 counties. 1/4 of the total population in one cities urban area is surely the common sense location of the stadium regardless of any other arguement of infrastructure etc etc.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 26/10/2012 10:11:23    1288521

GaryMc82
Please read again what I wrote
The A5 Bypass plans of Omagh have been shelved with no dates for it to start so no bypass stadium without a bypass.
Then read
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/indexfutures.html
There are two sections of the A5 being built and being held up by the legal challenge you mentioned, these are the A5 northern and southern roads to Omagh, the Omagh Bypass between the sections was Shelved in February with only a hope that it will be revived when the money becomes available.

I used http://goireland.about.com/od/preparingyourtrip/qt/towns20large.htm for my populations, even though I would class some of these towns as Belfast. As for their support for the Gaa as far i know there are gaa men and women playing in all the towns except one.

lufty (Antrim) - Posts: 77 - 26/10/2012 11:05:35    1288556

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 593

1288521
Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

If we look at the population of Ulster it sits at around 2,106,296. Belfast City has a population of 267,742 but the Greater Belfast urban area (as Derry gets to include its Boroughs.. :-) )has a population of 493,000 which accounts for 23.4% of the population of the 9 counties. 1/4 of the total population in one cities urban area is surely the common sense location of the stadium regardless of any other arguement of infrastructure etc etc.


Not sure about the Lies, Derry City does have a larger population that Limerick.

23.4% of the population of the 9 counties live in that region, But what percentage of this population are likely to attend or support GAA?
You are basically looking at area's with large or majority Unionist populations, who are historically less interested in GAA ( Which is a shame, But unlikely to change any time soon ).

I'm not opposed to Casement Park being redeveloped, but I am opposed to such a large amount being spent on this venue. Belfast City is also earmarked for 2 additional Stadiums too. Does the City really need 3 top class stadiums that are costing £60 million each?

£20million would give Casement a significant improvement, and still allow for a more central ground to be built using the remaining funds.

There is a lot of Antrim posters in favour of this Stadium.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 26/10/2012 18:25:47    1288758

GaryMc - the Lies, damned lies bit wasn't aimed at you. Just felt like posting it as statistics can be skewed depending on the arguement being made.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 26/10/2012 18:51:34    1288767

GerryMc: is your argument against Casement per se or is it lack of consultation in this quasi-political decision: would you have been in favour of the now defunct stadium at the kesh or would you have petitioned for a more central location such as Dungannon:however the rugger or soccer boys didnt want to relocate and wiil upgrade their respective stadia: yes £60m is a helluva lot of money, money which could well have been spent on more important projects (health & education): equally so the upgrade of the A5 is to be welcomed and will be receiving significant taxpayers money and you could argue about how many people in the east of the province will actually use the stretch of the road: the more salient point is that Casement has been earmarked for redevelopment and given that the largest city in Ulster will have a state of the art stadium: now if we were to take a catchment area of 50 mile radius/75min travel time from casement; this would include all of Antrim, Down, virtually all of Armagh, south Derry and up as far as Dungiven, most of east Tyrone clubs which to me covers at least 2/3 of the clubs in Ulster. County grounds with the possible exception of Ballybofey are capable of holding championship matches: Clones will still serve the western counties of Donegal Fermanagh & Cavan and no doubt the Ulster Council will factor in the options of Clones for Ulster Finals and semi finals but at least we will have 2 modern stadia to choose from

KevHill (Antrim) - Posts: 271 - 26/10/2012 20:30:54    1288813

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 594

1288767 GaryMc - the Lies, damned lies bit wasn't aimed at you. Just felt like posting it as statistics can be skewed depending on the arguement being made.

You're right. Discussions on this topic have become a bit of a statictical nightmare. But I suppose when arguing a point, we naturally end up trying to back up our argument as best we can. Even if it does involve trawling through endless Census statistics.

Despite my arguments for Omagh or possibly Dungannon as the location for Stadium Ulster, I openly agree that Belfast does deserve to have good quality GAA stadium. I don't have any general objection to visiting Casement Park for games, and I certainly don't have any dislike to Belfast, Antrim or the eastern side of Ulster.
But i repeat that if the GAA are going to build a Stadium to host the majority of Ulster's top games, games that will no doubt feature the likes of Donegal, Tyrone, Derry, Fermanagh, Cavan and Monaghan on a regular basis, Then I believe It should be located in a more central location in Ulster.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 26/10/2012 21:09:59    1288843

KevHill
County: Antrim
Posts: 230

1288813 GerryMc: is your argument against Casement per se or is it lack of consultation in this quasi-political decision: would you have been in favour of the now defunct stadium at the kesh or would you have petitioned for a more central location such as Dungannon:however the rugger or soccer boys didnt want to relocate and wiil upgrade their respective stadia: yes £60m is a helluva lot of money, money which could well have been spent on more important projects (health & education): equally so the upgrade of the A5 is to be welcomed and will be receiving significant taxpayers money and you could argue about how many people in the east of the province will actually use the stretch of the road: the more salient point is that Casement has been earmarked for redevelopment and given that the largest city in Ulster will have a state of the art stadium: now if we were to take a catchment area of 50 mile radius/75min travel time from casement; this would include all of Antrim, Down, virtually all of Armagh, south Derry and up as far as Dungiven, most of east Tyrone clubs which to me covers at least 2/3 of the clubs in Ulster. County grounds with the possible exception of Ballybofey are capable of holding championship matches: Clones will still serve the western counties of Donegal Fermanagh & Cavan and no doubt the Ulster Council will factor in the options of Clones for Ulster Finals and semi finals but at least we will have 2 modern stadia to choose from

To be honest, I am in favour of Belfast having a decent GAA stadium. But by the end of this, Belfast will see Ravenhill and Casement Park both redeveloped. Also it looks like either Windsor park may be developed, or a new soccer stadium may be constructed.
Could Rugby and GAA share a ground? With a pre agreement for GAA to get priority for all games between late May and July, and the IRFU to get priority for the Heinekan cup matches, and other major calender events. I'd say this is a no go, not with Ravenhill and Casement Park both currently in their respective locations.

While 75 mins or less travel time for 66% of Ulster Clubs may sound good, a central Stadium within 60mins of approx 95% of all GAA fans in Ulster would be better for most folks. I think Ballybofey will have its capacity bumped up again from 12,000 back to 18,000 before the 2013 championship. They are currently working on it, think it was reduced for safety concerns.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 26/10/2012 22:00:09    1288865

Well lads like it or lump it, your all coming to belfast for its the new home of ulster gaa!

If its going to be a modern stadium with tours concerts etc to be held in it, then it has to be belfast and thats that, its the main airport, the main train connection with dublin, all major motor ways come out of it leading into the road network, it has hotels galore, pubs restaurants and all the rest of the ingredients that come with building a modern day state of the art stadium!

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 29/10/2012 12:18:18    1289547