Going by this game today maybe the new tier should be, Antrim, Wex, Offaly, Laois, Carlow and Wm.

These teams can compete with each other, and if people are realistic, a new tier with these teams and the winner getting a place in the last round of the qualifiers makes a lot more sense.

Dublin/Kilkenny/Galway could play off for the Leinster.

Lost a lot of faith in the current format due to hammerings this year and today is no different.

Maybe the top 8 in the liam mccarthy, with 2nd 8 in the new tier and a place for the winners in the quarter finals of the Liam McCarthy.

Year in year out hammerings are good for no one in terms of encouraging young ones to take up the game in that particular county!

Given we have 32 counties, four tiers of 8 make a lot more sense after today.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 17/06/2012 15:07:50    1196050

North Side Gael
County: All
Posts: 954

1193658 Surely some hurling people on here have a thought on this?

The idea that 22 counties have the chance to win the Laim McCarthy cup at the start of the year is surely a good thing?

More competitive matches? Better chance of silverware?


No matter what way you try to dress it up the cream will still come to the top thats Tipp Kilkenny Cork so no point ghanging things it wont solve anything!!

thurlesblues (Tipperary) - Posts: 4475 - 17/06/2012 20:25:44    1196360

17/06/2012 20:25:44
thurlesblues
County: Tipperary
Posts: 3560

1196360 North Side Gael
County: All
Posts: 954

1193658 Surely some hurling people on here have a thought on this?

The idea that 22 counties have the chance to win the Laim McCarthy cup at the start of the year is surely a good thing?

More competitive matches? Better chance of silverware?


No matter what way you try to dress it up the cream will still come to the top thats Tipp Kilkenny Cork so no point ghanging things it wont solve anything!!

That is kind of true but if the format is changed it is more likely that there will be teams capable of challanging the big 3 which is good for the sport

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 17/06/2012 20:58:53    1196414

Having seen Offaly V Wexford & Offaly V Galway it's clear to see the 1st 2 have slipped way back. Galway won at a canter today & I don't think they're gonna worry the winners of Kilkenny V Dublin too much.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4105 - 17/06/2012 22:02:01    1196523

What possible benefit would Antrim have of going into the CR Cup? We won it back in 2006 by thumping teams along the way and it made zero improvement to hurling in the county. It's a waste of time.

srb (Antrim) - Posts: 344 - 18/06/2012 10:42:59    1196638

SRB what good? Did you read the thread or recent comments?

My idea is that teams like antrim, wex, offaly, laois, carlow and Wm, have slipped backwards and face facts, who wants to play carlow in the first game take a guranteed 9 times out of ten beating in the second game and then possibly do the same again in the qualifiers?

Why not have a new tier with the teams and a new cup with the winners gaining a place in the last round of the hurling qualifier draw or a leinster semi final? It works out the same anyway as all these teams have a decent chance of beating each other on their day, why not reward them for being able to win and their own level with both silverware and a place in the top flight.

I wouldnt be so sure either given the teams named above that Antrim would win at a canter!

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 18/06/2012 11:33:01    1196693

Evidence yesterday again of what this thread is about but yet again, its the same counties im referring to today it was laois and wm, next week antrim travel to limerick, will be interesting to see and i only hope for my own county we dont get one of these thrashings.

These thrashings will have done no good for hurling in Laois or Westmeath, counties who in recent years and in laois case weeks have made strides in the hurling.

A new tier 2 is a must.

Antrim, Laois, WM, Carlow, Kerry and London are the teams, plus maybe Down and Wicklow, of this world in the CRC but are not strong enough for Laim McCarthy, the new comp could have its winners playing in the last round of the qualifiers, start it as a knock out with 4 quarter finals, the losers going into christy ring semis and the winners going to the new tier semis.

This is surely now a must as hammerings and thumpings do nothing for hurling nor do moral 4/5 point defeats which some people say are moral victories, hurling is a changing sport with a lot of development compared to 20 years ago, the GAA need to move with the times and the sport and recognise that.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 23/06/2012 21:18:22    1200697

North Side Gael, I'm dont agree. Whilst it might seem that Wexford, Offaly etc are falling back, we are now regrouping at underage (OK our U-21's had a disastrous night the other night but they are better than that, and we bet KK last year), producing better minor teams (we beat Dublin in minor a few weeks ago) and there is massive work going into hurling in the county. This work will all go to pot if we are made to play in a 2nd tier competition. Yes we are a bit short of Kilkenny, Tipp and probably Galway, but I think Wexford will still fancy our chances against anyone else who will be in tomorrow's draw.

For the likes of Carlow, Westmeath, etc they will still learn more hurling Wexford, Limerick and Clare than hurling each other every year, if they keep doing that they will never be able to make the step up to top-tier hurling. OK it is disappointing for Westmeath to get a hammering but they have some fine hurlers on show yesterday and Raharney are a good club side.

Waterford are another example. In 1993, Kerry beat Waterford by 3 points. In 1994, Limerick (who went on to almost win the All-Ireland) beat them by 2 points. In 1995, Tipp bet them by 21 points. Now I'm sure back then there was calls for Waterford to pull out. Instead, Waterford kept at it, and went on to light up the following decade. This is what the likes of Westmeath and Carlow must now do to progress further.

Whilst I think the league format is absolutely correct and realistically reflects where teams are ability wise, I think creating a new championship for them will not aid the progress of hurling in such counties.

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 24/06/2012 10:04:14    1200773

23/06/2012 21:18:22
North Side Gael
County: All
Posts: 967

1200697
Evidence yesterday again of what this thread is about but yet again, its the same counties im referring to today it was laois and wm, next week antrim travel to limerick, will be interesting to see and i only hope for my own county we dont get one of these thrashings.

These thrashings will have done no good for hurling in Laois or Westmeath, counties who in recent years and in laois case weeks have made strides in the hurling.

A new tier 2 is a must.

Antrim, Laois, WM, Carlow, Kerry and London are the teams, plus maybe Down and Wicklow, of this world in the CRC but are not strong enough for Laim McCarthy, the new comp could have its winners playing in the last round of the qualifiers, start it as a knock out with 4 quarter finals, the losers going into christy ring semis and the winners going to the new tier semis.

This is surely now a must as hammerings and thumpings do nothing for hurling nor do moral 4/5 point defeats which some people say are moral victories, hurling is a changing sport with a lot of development compared to 20 years ago, the GAA need to move with the times and the sport and recognise that.

At that rate NSG, you might as well demote those counties to the Christy Ring. If you have a group of the top 10 counties at McCarthy level, there is no way they'll accept relegation.

The current qualifier structure needs to be looked at. The phase I and II with Limerick and Wexford securing an easier route to phase III by not being in phase II of beaten semi-finalists.

Of the 6 non-provincial semi-finalists, the 5 lowest based on league placing and the Christy Ring Cup winner should enter the Qualifier Round 1. The 3 round 1 winners and the 1 team receiving a bye should drawn against the beaten provincial semi-finalists in a Qualifier Round 2.

The 4 round 2 winners should join the 4 provincial finalists at the quarter-final stage. Provincial winners should be drawn at home against the lowest two Qualifier Round 2 winners based on league position. The losing provincial finalists should be drawn against the highest two Qualifier Round 2 winners, with a separate draw to determine home tie. Croke Park onwards then for the semi-finals and All-Ireland final.

The 7 counties failing to make it past Qualifier Round 2 should enter a secondary competition. Lower counties would have a realistic cup to aim for and the chance of more progression with more games. If a so-called big county was to be landed in it, they might treat it with disdain but they'd still be able to bring on fringe players during the competition.


I don't think a return of relegation has been ruled out by the GAA if the Championship has 16 teams. There hope seems to be that there'll be enough of a buffer for the likes of Clare, Antrim and Wexford not to get tangled up in a relegation scrap.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9798 - 24/06/2012 10:12:06    1200778

So hammerings on a yearly level will help the current bunch learn but the future may well be bleak due to lack of interest or imagination from children who dont have any stars to follow.

The format im putting out allows a new tier, a qualfiying tournament if you will, if the team is good enough they can still show it, but realistically trying to interest a child in hurling and watching them not able to string two wins together in 9/10 years is not going to make them want to play on the county panel.

Antrim hurling supporters at the start of the year look at the championship, like this year, they would have predicted to beat westmeath (which we didnt) then lose to galway and maybe get a moral victory defeat v offaly or wexford in the back door.

This is not the same for antrim its the same for Laois, Carlow, Wm,and soon London as well, one win a year in the prime of the summer in front of a crowd of 2000 people in mullingar insnt going to be enough to capture the imagination of the children, winning two three games, playing in front of 7/8 k in a final and then a bigger crowd again in a laim mc carthy game will capture imaginations. The format im suggesting just means these teams will get a chance of competing with one another before one of them gets a craic at the Laim McCarthy, if you are not good enough in this tier really your not going to get very far against offaly or wexford anyway and thats the current lowest of the hurling top brass. At least when you are ready and you do come through, you have a tradition of winning, your team is now strong and tasted victory and laim mc carthy hurling in the same year, the year later will be the focus then and prove they are capable of sticking it out then by staying there!

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 24/06/2012 13:21:11    1200864

There has to be realism in all championship format discussions. If a relegation format wasn't acceptable when the All-Ireland was capped at 12 counties, it's hardly going to be acceptable if it's capped to 10. I know yours is a slightly different regards the intermediary tier but I can't see that being adopted. You say your suggestion opens the Liam McCarthy to 22 teams. If the CR winner this year was allowed enter the qualifiers the same would be said that 22 started the year with a chance.

Carlow and Westmeath are the most recent members of the Liam McCarthy Championship. There was no benefit to them in remaining in the Christy Ring Cup. Possibly if the Ring winner had access to qualifiers at the time, they might have held off taking promotion.

In all, small changes are more likely than sweeping changes. Allowing the Ring winner enter the qualifiers will benefit the championship. Counties would most like seek promotion based on performances in the qualifiers and how competitive they are or not. A secondary competition for counties not making the last 8 would also be of benefit for that group of counties. They could look at building up more experience and confidence in a secondary competition at their level.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9798 - 24/06/2012 15:58:14    1200997

legendzxix, that is a sensible idea and one I dont see why anyone could have a problem with the winners of the CR cup getting into the championship at some stage.

North Side Gael, there is some merit in what you are saying but sure Wexford have taken bad beatings off Kilkenny and Tipp and others for years at this stage, but playing numbers are higher than ever in the county, because the clubs are putting in the effort and there are kids now hurling in record numbers who would not even remember us winning the last Leinster chamionship in 2004 regardless of where the senior inter-county team is. Hopefully now our minors can go on and win Leinster and that will be the biggest boost hurling in the county could get. Similarly for Laois in the U-21.

My point is that a lack of success or quality of the inter-county team does not mean that young lads wont want to play the game, and if we can all keep young lads hurling, wanting to play the game and the clubs continue to put in the effort, the success and standard of hurling in the county, and resulting competitiveness of the county team over time, will look after itself.

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 24/06/2012 17:49:27    1201090

Im sorry to go on about this but the results at the weekend antrims annihalation and wexfords totally predictable were near them but we cant touch them result, proved this group of teams named in my first post are now too good for CRC and not good enough for LMcC.

Antrim, Laois, Westmeath, Carlow, London and the previous years winners Kerry, could all play in a qualifying tournament with winners getting a place in last round qualifiers and automatic promotion relegation for the following years championship.

2 Groups 3, top two through to semis, and realistically anyone can beat anyone, with a Liam place a stake would make for interesting watching too.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 03/07/2012 10:42:42    1208081

North Side Gael
County: All
----------------------------------------------------

If those teams aren't good enough for the Liam McCarthy, like you say above, then what would be the point of introducing them in the last round of qualifiers? At the last round of qualifiers, they'd be meeting provincial semi's losers which could be Tipperary, Cork, Galway, even Kilkenny (could happen...sometime). Playing in the top tier utlimately means having to play the top teams, that deosn't change regardless of how they get there.

And if you're basing this on Antrims lopsided result against Limerick, thats not so much to do with ability, its to do with attitude and preparation. As far as I can tell, Antrim do have the talent to compete at the top level. But if you win the CRC and your management loses the plot prior to a qualifier, or if your best players go on holiday the week before the qualifer, or if you turn up for the qualifer already beaten mentally, then championship structure isn't the problem.

For what its worth, I do think the finalists of a strenghtened CRC tier (with at least some of the above teams), should be introduced in the first round of LRC qualifiers. I say this because I think teams like Westmeath are willing to take on bigger teams, and would benefit from the momentum winning a strong CRC would give them prior to a big qualifier.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 03/07/2012 16:18:33    1208612

If the Christy Ring Cup winner was allowed to enter the qualifiers, it'd be interesting to see what affect it would have on teams currently struggling in the qualifiers. It'd be a huge incentive at CRC level to do well. If the CRC winners was not to do well in the qualifiers, nothing would be lost in them remaining where they were until they were.

For arguments sake if the CRC consisted of: Antrim, Laois, Carlow, Westmeath, London, Wicklow, Down and Meath, it'd be a competitive championship. It'd be tough on the non CRC semi-finalists of Kerry, Derry, Kildare and Mayo.

The risk for teams staying in the CRC if they did not do well in the qualifiers would be:
1) No guarantee of winning the CRC the following year for another crack at the qualifiers.
2) There's always the dangers as well of relegation the third tier, though unlikely, not to be discounted.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9798 - 03/07/2012 21:12:32    1208963

Marlon the idea of the qualifiers is incentive and preparation, they will prep themselves for championship and this game in the qualifiers will let them see if its worth going up, maybe the winners could go in at round 1 of qualifiers, but either way they will be on a high from winning at their level. Its not based on antrims hammering be realistic man, Antrim were also beaten by westmeath who were easily disposed of by galway, laois annihalated twice this year and they saw of carlow in a close affair, yet in recent years when these teams have met each other the difference is no more than 7 points.

Im saying have your elite top ten, then possibly a second 8. Say Antrim, Laois, Wm, Carlow, London, Kerry, Wicklow, Down. This would create two groups of four in a new tier, the winners may have games they can win handy but they will also have games on the day anyone could win, if this was a new tier it would have in my eyes 5 genuine potential winners, who they are i think you can work out, this means you would have a competition that isnt a foregone conclusion, say its the mick mackey cup for talk sake, it means the next tier CRC again would be major competitive with 6 teams, Armagh, Derry, Kildare, Meath, Roscommon and Mayo, again all teams that on their day can challenge one another, say into two groups of 3, with two group winners into semis and two second places, playing the two third placed teams from mick mackey cup in quarter finals, therefore meaning competition is tough competitive and linking up.

I think finding a level for these teams is vital, if a second tier was twelve teams say youd have too many walk overs, smaller tiers, more competitive games in the summer is whats required for improvement, the tiered system has already produced better hurling in a load of counties if a new tier builds on this even better and competitive hurling is the best way forward.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 04/07/2012 08:38:45    1209041

Chatting on another thread to legendixx, what if the new tier had the obvious 4 teams plus 4 other lower seeds, the final could be played alongside the christy ring final in a ground such as parnell where it might fill out.

Antrim v Laois preceded by Derry V Kildare, would pull in a decent enough gate of around 6 or 7 k, would generate good atmosphere also in a small venue such as parnell.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 04/07/2012 12:19:45    1209233

Hurling will never develop if counties cant compete at the top tier.Carlow and Westmeath are going in the right direction,is creating another league for them in their interest?I cant help having my doubts.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 04/07/2012 13:03:27    1209279

Laim McCarthy Sheild and qualifying tournament (winners play in back door of laim mc carthy cup at some stage)

group one Antrim Wm Kerry
Group two Laois Carlow London

top two in each group to semis, bottom two in each group to crc quarters.

CRC
g1 Down Wicklow Derry
g2 Kildare Armagh Meath

top of each group semis second each group quarters, bottom each group NRC quarters

NRC
g1 Mayo Sligo Louth
g2 Roscommon Donegal Monaghan

Same link up as before except bottom teams go to LMC semis

LMC
g1 Fermanagh Warwickshire longford
g2 tyrone cavan leitrim

Top two through to semis, bottom four into lory meagher sheild quarter finals, winners play cup semi final losers.

This system links every competition in Ireland, with competitive games and the opportunity to punch above your weight (if you can).

Play laim mc sheild comp along side crc final at beginning of june in likes of parnell where a decent crowd will fill the place and give atmosphere. Play the nicky rackard final alongside lory meagher cup and sheild finals the evening before at another small venue but good county venue.

Relegation promotion can be decided by if a team who drops down loses they are relegated, if both teams lose they play of for relegation.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 04/07/2012 13:11:41    1209290

Carlow and Westmeath going in the right direction?

Westmeath where easily disposed of by galway, Carlow had a decent game by there standards against wexford but carlow where beaten by 7 by laois who took two almighty hammerings of much more superior teams than wexford.

The new tier / qualifying comp would give these counties the opportunity to compete with each other and test themselves in a one off v a big team if they have been good enough at there level, this is what is happening at present anyway and will cut down on hammerings and offer these teams competitive hurling to build on.

We need to move with the times, hurling has its quality at different levels as do many sports, let them compete at there own level if anything it allows counties to concentrate and spend time/money on a season that will actually mean something.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 04/07/2012 13:18:00    1209297