Good man Ulsterman. Don't make any attempt to address my points, just go off on your rant, while working at your desk in the British Civil Service no doubt.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 12/01/2012 19:38:42    1092799

I thought it was a fascinating programme and fair play to TG4. Most other Irish channels want to whitewash what happened on this island during a very difficult period.
To get any understanding of the war in the north and to come to terms with it I think it is vital to look back at the lives and motivations of all the protagonists. With the peace talks and exposure to the media of Loyalist paramilitary leaders I for one believe that hard line republicans had a greater understanding of their culture and motives. The people of this state have to move on. The presidential election is over so the victims have now been put on the back burner until the next time there is an election.

thistle_harps (UK) - Posts: 879 - 12/01/2012 21:06:24    1092851

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 3031

Why pick obvious nationalist atrocities as some missing historical narrative on the troubles? what missing is the counter stuff, but they are not missing, they are there, just read a Laving Cert history book not Kevin Myer's columns. But you can be absolutely certain what is missing from the British historical narrative is Ireland at least 75% of it. But all your list provokes is another counter list of missing tales from the troubles. I can stomach the IRA, UVF etc etc as at least they have a "stake" in their patch, no time for the Brits and the way they operated, just a bit of open honesty like for like, but it is a long time ago, listen to the stories and the movers and shapers they always have something interesting to say, Dugdale and her like certainly has.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4954 - 12/01/2012 21:39:50    1092877

Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 4663

1092759
IRA propoganda? It makes a change from the 26 county media pouring out their usual Unionist/Loyalist/British military/British Royalty/D4 embarrassing, fawning crap. It's very easy to spout revisionist nonsense from the safety of Kilkenny 45 years after the Northern conflict kicked off especially when you didn't live in it and have no experience of it. It galls many Northern Nationalists to have to listen to lectures from those who get their opinions and information from Sir Tony, the knight of the British realm, and his robotic lemming journalists who have their own sinister anti- Northern Nationalist agenda. Seamus, you have NO right to talk about events and circumstances you know NOTHING about. Come up to Belfast on July 11th and visit some 'Orangefest' bonfires; tell the natives in your Southern brogue how much you admire them and wait for the reaction.........something along the lines of Edward Woodward in The Wicker Man I would guess. The Provos didn't appear out of the thin air. The first sectarian murders, bombings and policemen killed in the Troubles were all carried out by Loyalists while the first civilians murdered were in Derry and the lower Falls Road by the RUC and British Army. It is shocking that many are still so naive, brainwashed and gullible when it comes to the North; then again when you have a rotten, lying media that's what happens.

well said ulsterman... the ira were the best thing that ever happenned in the North. its such a shame they committed to a ceasefire. things have really gone downhill since. what a noble bunch of men. by the way just because most people in the south are anti-ira it doesn't mean we are pro-unionist. we loathe and detest both in equal measure. all this oh but they killed first..oh but they commited more atrocities than we did. they started it. their murderers are worse than our murderers. you had the NICRA doing a fine job until the IRA got stuck in.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5522 - 12/01/2012 21:53:25    1092883

SEAMUS 89 Read the S.A.S IN IRELAND and you will really understand atrocity.

Brinsley Swartz (Mayo) - Posts: 2225 - 12/01/2012 21:57:51    1092885

seamus89.
u are totally out of order regardless of ulstermans job he actually comes from north belfast and around the ardoyne has seen much of the frontline of the troubles were they were surrounded by loyalist districts hell bent on killing innocent catholics ( didd,nt matter if they were a provo ) any catholic would do for them worse so aided and abetted by the r.u.c / british army and the infamouse U.D.R along with senior intelligent from whithall so that loyalist could keep a grip on stormount . and we have the freestate media blaming it all on northern nationalists and republicans for actually defending their own communities from these monsters and at the same time irish statesWOMEN with their grovels of WOW at the monarch and been adddresed as your majesty by certain heads of state at big ears charlie , grovelling and licking one another , while their own people in the north were being butchered .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 12/01/2012 22:02:35    1092891

Seamus,

I dont feel that you are in any real position to comment as your views are far right (with republican being far left). We all know your opinion on these matters over the last couple of years so really you're just laying out some bait with this thread.
Ulsterman is the oppisite to you online - but it's the on the fence posters who can really address the issues you have raised.
I have to say that i agree with ulstermans post - it makes more sence than your original for me!

Brolly (Monaghan) - Posts: 4472 - 13/01/2012 09:00:59    1092898

Brolly

My views are far-right? Do you even not what that means? Nick Griffin, Marine Le Pen and other fascist fools. I am centre-right, and I support the unification of Ireland by peaceful and democratic means and by peaceful and democratic means only. I don't like licence fee payers having to subsidise propaganda by an English aristocrat who came over here to murder Irish people and rob art works. Maybe that makes me far-right in your view, I think it's a position that most people hold.

Ta

Yeah, yeah. Usual stuff from you. If you aren't from the North, you can't have a say, unless of course you're an IRA/SF fellow traveller who regards those terrorists as heroes and wants to come on and praise them. If you mention Kingsmills, La Mon, Enniskillen, Abercorn, Bloody Friday or the FACT THAT THE IRA KILLED MORE CATHOLICS THAN ANY OTHER GROUP then you are a revisionist partitionist who should go away and read a book, even though I've been reading books about the Troubles since childhood and I'd wager a serious amount that I have read more than you have.

Ulsterman comes on here and attacks all around him for fawning over the British monarchy and all sorts, and then goes back to work, and then he expects that not to be an issue?

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 13/01/2012 10:08:25    1092929

It is an important question to ask however (although off-topic from the opening post), where would we be without any retaliation of violence from the nationalist community in the north.

Would a campaign of civil disobedience turned the tide sooner and forced the Britich govt to insist the Unionist govt of the north apply equal opportunity for all?

Would we be any closer to a united Ireland?

stranmillis29 (Antrim) - Posts: 788 - 13/01/2012 10:56:02    1092958

stranmillis29
County: Antrim
Posts: 756
1092958
It is an important question to ask however (although off-topic from the opening post), where would we be without any retaliation of violence from the nationalist community in the north.
Would a campaign of civil disobedience turned the tide sooner and forced the Britich govt to insist the Unionist govt of the north apply equal opportunity for all?
Would we be any closer to a united Ireland?

Yes good question. would the civil rights movement gained momentum to such an extent that it shamed the british government to change policy. I cannot think of one single good thing that the PIRA have done for the future of the island of Ireland. (this is not revisionist/partitionist/unionist/west brit thinking. this is what the vast majority of people in the republic think. Perhaps because we are slightly removed from the scence of the crime we can view objectively.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5522 - 13/01/2012 12:14:35    1093015

s goldrick
County: Cavan
Posts: 1146

Yes good question. would the civil rights movement gained momentum to such an extent that it shamed the british government to change policy. I cannot think of one single good thing that the PIRA have done for the future of the island of Ireland. (this is not revisionist/partitionist/unionist/west brit thinking. this is what the vast majority of people in the republic think. Perhaps because we are slightly removed from the scence of the crime we can view objectively.

Was a united Ireland high civil rights campaign agenda?

The reality is if you disagree with anything the coming from SF or PIRA you automatically are revisionist/partitionist/unionist/west brit thinking.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 13/01/2012 12:50:32    1093038

Brolly
County: Monaghan
Posts: 2493



I dont feel that you are in any real position to comment as your views are far right (with republican being far left).

So reckon that Oliver Cromwell and Ronald Reagan were far left then.

There have been a few republicans in the history of the Irish Republican Movement but in the main it is a right wing movement. Republican is a generic term used by movements the world over as means of gaining power.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 13/01/2012 13:08:17    1093047

Seamus it appears you're in favour of censorship, just because you dont agree with the political slant of the programme doesnt mean it shouldnt be aired. A number of posters have said already and I would agree with them in that TG4 makes some excellent history documentaries. Perhaps you should open your mind to other views a little more.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 13/01/2012 13:22:54    1093063

A united Ireland may not have been high on the CRA's agenda, however, an absence of nationalist violence would have surely softened the unionists attitude to such an outcome and potentially making it happen sooner than is envisaged now.

Turn the other cheek you say, my my these chaps have got a jolly good bit of spirit, maybe they're not the anti-christs our demented leaders claimed after all.......

stranmillis29 (Antrim) - Posts: 788 - 13/01/2012 13:23:21    1093064

Goodfella, Tir
County: All
Posts: 1471

just because you dont agree with the political slant of the programme doesnt mean it shouldnt be aired. A number of posters have said already and I would agree with them in that TG4 makes some excellent history documentaries. Perhaps you should open your mind to other views a little more.

Good point. But is all the souhtern media not just a tool of the west brit revisionist mentality

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 13/01/2012 13:26:58    1093075

you had the NICRA doing a fine job until the IRA got stuck in.

That's probably true S Goldrick. It's just a pity that people taking part in NICRA marches were murdered in the streets by British government forces as they were protesting through non violent means.

Bloody Sunday ring a bell?

26 unarmed civilians were shot, five of those 26 in the back. 13 people died immediately, another man four and a half months later from his injuries. Two other protestors were run down by army vehicles and sustained severe injuries?

Your post presents a very niaive and one sided view.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 13/01/2012 13:33:06    1093083

Good point. But is all the souhtern media not just a tool of the west brit revisionist mentality

Not at all dhorse but certainly there is a large element of the media throughout the whole island which was and still is very much pro partition.

I am not a 'foaming at the mouth' poster such as others I could mention on here, but taking as an unbiased a look as I can (given we are all biased in some way), I feel many in the media have a very narrow and rehearsed script of how the troubles were in the North. Lets just say that in my opinion they more often than not accepted the official line and presented a simplistic story of black and white without too many questions about the shades of grey in between.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 13/01/2012 13:43:34    1093086

This brings me back to a point that many here can't comprehend because they never lived through it. 1960s Ulster was the most law abiding place to live in western Europe and also relatively free from trade union disputes because of the divide and rule policy of unionism. How did it go from that to Sinn Fein (at the time full of ex IRA members) growing to become the largest party in the 6 counties and the best organised party machine on the whole island. Whatever you think of them you cannot say they are careerist politicians. It's some career facing sectarian or state assassination at any time. And many did. How come if they were so evil and bad that over 100,000 people attended the funeral of Bobby Sands. This at a time when many felt the country was going to explode into civil war. How many tens of thousands more would have attended if they felt it was safe to do so.
I have no doubt there was some evil and even depraved people got involved in the republican struggle. Just the same as you have in so called respectable armies today. YOu have to live through something like that and see how it changes people as one atrocity follows another. 1970s Belfast was policed like Aden, Vietnam or Korea. Local civilians counted for nothing.
I think it's a great thing TG4 are doing giving people who lived and fought through that era the opportunity to explain their actions and motivations to the current generation. Who else can they turn to for a balanced view the Indo or RTE?

thistle_harps (UK) - Posts: 879 - 13/01/2012 14:38:28    1093131

The views on this forum re: the North make me very sad.

I normally don't agree with Ulsterman but his original post on this was good - the media in Ireland and their treatment of Martin McGuinness coming up to the Presidential election was shocking - everybody has amnesia regarding the massive public support there was in the early 70's for the IRA. It shows the lack of knowledge (at best) of a lot of people.

The problem with Seamus' posts and the direct opposite is that they deal in absolutes, and if there is one thing the North's history is, it's that it's complicated. That's not to say that Seamus' and others points aren't valid, because they often are, but it's more nuanced than can be summed up in a sentence or a paragraph.

I am a republican, and proud of it, but I recognise that the IRA was responsible for terrible and heinous acts - but I also say that the IRA was a legitimate response by a community under siege and an organisation that for several years was necessary. It began to seriously lose it's way in the mid-70's, but to look at the North merely saying IRA bad/Unionists bad/British bad, and why didn't we all just get along is a trite and ridiculous assessment of an extremely delicate topic.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 13/01/2012 14:45:19    1093137

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 3039

1092929 Brolly

My views are far-right? Do you even not what that means? Nick Griffin, Marine Le Pen and other fascist fools. I am centre-right,

You might not be pro fascism but you are not centre right either.

Horse (Laois) - Posts: 1146 - 13/01/2012 14:49:12    1093140