National Forum

Development of hurling in the weaker counties

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If 1 weaker county went to Croke Park with a well thought out and decent plan for the development of hurling, I would guarantee Croke Park will give them every help in doing so.
Unfortunately, most countys have no interest in hurling and county boards pay it lip service.
Until that changes, there is no point throwing good money after bad.
It's a 10-20 year process for such counties to become even remotely competitive and I dont think there is the will in any of the weaker counties for such a long period of investment for a reward which will be realised by a future generation.
First step in all such counties should be the establishment of a hurling board, and to join with another county where such an arrangement could be made.
I'd love to see all the weaker counties competing but doubt we'll see it in any of our life times.

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 14/08/2011 21:33:31    1011053

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Hurling is a national treasure, far more unique in a world sport context than football which has many variations throughout the world. It is as deserving of protection as the the Ardagh Chalice and New Grange. Funding young peoples exposure of the sport through Primary schools in target areas such as Kildare Carlow Antrim and Meath is the best way forward for the overall spread of the game. Equally areas such as Limerick city, Wexford and Offaly ailing strongholds needs additional support to help revive the sport in these areas. Some of the best work done promoting the game this year has been from the players themselves who have donned the county jersey like Lar Corbett, John Mullane, Kevin Downes to name a few. The recent u21 munster final and todays semi final were great promotions of the game of hurling.

87LK100 (Limerick) - Posts: 65 - 14/08/2011 21:34:44    1011058

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No hurling officer in Cavan. Nothing from Ulster Council either. They just pocket the money.

breffni666 (Cavan) - Posts: 294 - 14/08/2011 21:36:45    1011060

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I'd accept that it is important that hurling is strong in the capital It is good for the game. I admire the way they've developed the game, I wouldn't be envious of it. Hurling clubs in Tralee were to make more of an effort to promote the game in the town. In an article in The Kerryman in recent months it was outlined on how only Na Gaeil seemed to have imbraced the game so far at youth level. It's very easy to blame the GAA as a whole. If the will is their within the respective lower tier counties, the game can progress.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9005 - 14/08/2011 21:38:48    1011062

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It can be a two way street I would acknowledge that. There are indeed many county boards, some in Ulster, who have no interest in hurling but those that do should be encouraged and helped all the way. Armagh are taking small but important steps while Down has gone back a bit. Antrim's club scene is not bad but the county is struggling badly on the national level. We can only look on with envy, but with best wishes, towards Dublin and ask ourselves. How can we be so poor when the county we knocked out of the All Ireland last year is thriving? There cannot be such a massive gulf between Dublin and ourselves when we can beat them.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9825 - 14/08/2011 21:43:33    1011066

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I'm not knocking dublin - fair play and well done, but Croke Park saw a 'plan' supported it and funded it,

As regards cavan can anyone out there justify a hurling officer to cavan when they only have 1 or 2 clubs, lets be realistic -it has to be value for money, instead a hurling guru for cavan/longford, there is probably more hurlers in one dubin club than the longford and cavan put together.....

Its all about attitude - 3 years ago derry could have beaten dublin in an -all ireland u-21 semi-final in newry with a bit more self belief, dublin won, this year dublin will get to another u-21 final while derry couldn't field -moreover schools hurling is very strong in derry with St pats maghera winning a number of o'keefe cups ( all-ireland 'b' school and colleges against very notable schools and counties,

the players are there in down, derry and antrim, organisation is poor, expectation is poor, then reality steps in ,

our club plyed host to ruan of co.clare and kilmacud of dublin at the weekend at u-16 level - to get proper decent hurling - organisation

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - Posts: 1691 - 14/08/2011 21:57:39    1011082

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In fairness if there is a will amongst clubs to embrace hurling, but that will has to be there. I am aware particularly in Armagh of the level of effort being put into hurling/camogie. Its a long road a bit of a slog from schools/nursery up to Senior levels, but it can be done. Much is made of the amount of development officers in Dublin, most are part-time, with clubs supplimenting income. This is keeping young people in employment and has had a huge impact in spreading hurling/football into the primary/second level schools which is the key.

I think dedicated volunteers need all the help they can get, maybe the Dublin success will spur other county boards on.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4956 - 15/08/2011 09:05:34    1011100

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It's about people having the vision to see what can be & the drive to make it happen. In a county like Longford, the only people in a position to do these things are not interested in hurling.

We have 2 hurling clubs here who are both thriving at underage level. Both play league hurling in Westmeath & that has been a huge help. Why can't we have a few more clubs doing this? Instead we will probably lose our 3rd remaining hurling club. Surely a hurling development officer IS needed to counteract this? I'm told Cavan county board have appointed one recently & Longford hurling would've always been far stronger than Cavan's (& still is!!!). Was it 5 years ago Armagh beat us in the league final by 2 points? Look at what's happened since in both counties...

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 15/08/2011 11:06:52    1011179

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Let me generalise, and use Antrim as an the prime example of the best of the weaker counties out there.

There is 'football' and there is 'hurling'!
Antrim in most people eyes is a hurling county! Sure, they flash in the pan in football now and again like with Kerry two years ago and they have St. Galls club etc, but Antrim is a hurling county!

Now, the point is, that if Antrim, who are at the top of the weaker county spectrum and beat Dublin last year in the championship, cant get their house in order and come up with a reasonable 'plan' to push ""their most dominant GAA code"" on to the next level (like Dublin did with its weaker code), but continue to potter along and bitch and gripe every year about geographical isolation etc then how are the cavan, roscommon types etc of this world expected to follow any type of 'lead' from the leader of their pack?!

Some years ago, ex Antrim manager McNaughton went on a fact finding mission to KK to find out what structures they have in place!!!.....talk about 'jumping the gun' a bit!!.......Thats like the owner of a sweet shop visiting Intel HQ in Silicon Valley to see what structures they have in place as a model for his business!!!
Why did he not go to Dublin and see what model that county had put in place as a blueprint for the future and copy the plan for submission to croker for funding and approval??!!..........Gotta learn to crawl before you can walk, is the point here!!......Hurling development starts with the little ones, not at 15 years old as most counties think!.......hence Dublins long term plan from 15 years ago is bearing sustained fruit now!

Every county seems to want a quick fix to get them to the top level and wants to emulate Dublins progress!!!......Time to wake up lads, Dublins plan for success started 15 years ago!!......ye should have been proactive back then!....not now!.....unless ye are prepared to wait that long and build from today!.....if ye have the patience!!

Dont be thinking a few development officers with the U15's will help ye win a minor or something, it wont!
Development officers with the U8's for the next 15 years!....might!

Cop onto the fact that hurling development is a long period of soaking before it bears any fruit!.....no quick fixes!!

Regards,

Snufalufagus....Laochra Gael

Snufalufagus (Dublin) - Posts: 8100 - 15/08/2011 15:12:38    1011449

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In reply to the previous post,

Antrim historically and now is a dual county:
1. it did reach all-ireland finals even if it was 100 years ago
2. it won an all-ireland u-21 title in 1969
3. reach a senior provincial final 2 years ago
4. club football is strong with st galls winning the all-ireland 2 years ago
3. st. malachy's belfast has won a hogan cup,


the troubles had a major impact on the gaa both in belast and the wider county
our problem is what constitutes weak, Antrim are considerably weaker than kilkenny cork etc, but are only marginally inferiour to dublin,
i believe the talent is there, but geographical isolation doesn't help,
in dublin you are no more than 1 hr and 30 mins from serious hurling territory, in hurling you need competitive structures and games,

antrim aren't that far away:-
1. both St.Mary's and garan tower are very competitive and performed well at all-ireland 'b' level
2. 3/4 hurling clubs such as dunloy, cusendall, ballycastle could compete with most

but the continued lack of sucess at minor and u-21 is very worrying, lets face it dublin will hammer antrim on saturday.....but why?

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - Posts: 1691 - 15/08/2011 16:24:02    1011527

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Dublin had a strong club structure to begin with and this helped with the revival. Other counties such as my own have really nothing in place and all the money in the world won't revive what was never there. I admire the people who soldier on but a few misguided rocks thrown at the county board an football in general isn't the answer either.

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 15/08/2011 16:53:06    1011558

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Why did he not go to Dublin and see what model that county had put in place as a blueprint for the future and copy the plan for submission to croker for funding and approval

So dublin didn't copy any structures no..... was joining up the college teams not the same as what is done in schools in the likes of cork kilkenny and tipp galway etc. thus getting all the best players playing at an early age, not to mention they shipped in coaches and expertise from other counties granted backing it up with money. What dublin have done isn't thing new they just have the resources numbers of players that other traditional weaker counties do not have.

True they have to walk before they crawl but dublin didn't learn how to do it all on their own themselves.... I Lived in dublin a few years after they started all this and was talking to dublin people when went to county board meeting and the football ferternity where constantly there complaining about the funding.

The reason why Tipp are a few years ahead of dublin with their current crop of players is that they put those structures in place a few years before them and also have resources and players to back it up.... this is something the top teams are not bearing the fruit of but to say that all counties should copy the dublin model is very unrealistic as they do not have the resources to do that and until croke park starting distributing them a bit better they will not be able to.

Many dublin clubs can finance themselves mainly becuase of they memebership and access to fundraising like of your own lucan sars (excellent facilities) Kilmacud crokes and ballyboden saint enda's etc. If been to matches there and seen that they have many underage teams at each level. This is something that small rural clubs cannot do mainly due to resources and players.... so instead of tooting your own trumpet realise that all clubs schools and county boards aren't in the same position as you mainly due to mumbers.... rural clubs are dying off many have to join together which is a hard thing to do with rivils and means that many clubs loose their identity this is something dublin clubs don't have to worry about and can go from strenght to strenght and with the aid of many culchie blow ins..... So be careful there not to fall off your high horse it seems it will be a big drop.

Granted well done dublin but you need to realise that dublin are way better equipt to compete and in reality there no reason why they should be at the top in both codes!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 15/08/2011 17:38:07    1011607

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http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/reaping-fruit-of-revolution-2634488.html

Here a little article for you snuff, see in 2007 they spent 7 million on hurling and football development in dublin, if that's the sort of figures being banded around could you imagine what sort of investment has gone in over 15 years.... sorry boss smaller counties don't have acess to those sort of resources at the moment so instead of saying you should do what we did.... maybe you should be saying we need to give the the money they need to do it.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 15/08/2011 17:44:28    1011612

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One last point snuff the man credited with starting the Dublin revolution in the dublin colleges where do you think he was from??? If your going to be so arrogant then sure we might as well take the credit for where dublin have got to because Mr. O'Donnell was a Tipp Man.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 15/08/2011 17:54:32    1011621

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hag your old enough not to believe the newspapers figures when it comes to money,6million or 7 million they say it so easy in newspapers but if there was that much money to spend in dublin why are they trying to do all they can to come up with the money that it will cost of preparing the 5 dublin teams involved in the latter stages of the championship this year that figure has been named at 1 million to prepare them and dublin county board are running anumber of fundraising activites including renting there box in croker for the football to try get the money in.the problem in most countys and indeed has been the problem with dublin until recently was that hurling people seem to have a bee in there bonnet when it comes to football,as recently as this evening i heard humphrey kelleher on tv3 news saing the next step now after yesterdays match is to make hurling the main choice of sport in dublin,this type of talk is ridiculous the next aim for dublin hurlers should be to win a liam mccarthy and beat the likes of kilkeny and tipp not compete against football

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 15/08/2011 18:42:12    1011656

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HAG,
Hold yer horses there lad and throwing the 'arrogant' term at me again like its going out of fashion, your own county nearly got its own dose thrown back at it yesterday!

Anyway, my post was not one of tooting my own trumpet and putting down others, far from it! My post was my personal solution to the problem and I am well aware of the flaws with it! I dont need the likes of you to come on here and throw it back at me just because I promote the solution that worked for my county as the one for others to start off with looking at! Cheek of you!

Anyway, the following points spring to mind:
1. As you said, Dublin have the big clubs and had the hurling structure there already so it was easy for us to use a big gun as a blueprint for development! So by that rationale why should Antrim or Westmeath copy KK when they dont have the same strong club hurling power structure in place? Though why not take the parts of the Dublin 'copy-CAT' plan to suit them?

2. When we have all these rural clubs in weak hurling counties where football is king having to amalgamate to survive, what real good is a hurling development officer to a club that without amalgamating can hardy field a team in its first love...football, nevermind hurling!!

Regards,

Snufalufagus....Laochra Gael

Snufalufagus (Dublin) - Posts: 8100 - 15/08/2011 18:54:33    1011667

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hill16no1man:

This was money for funding at juvanile level it had nothing to do with senior teams and I know well what the costs are in bring teams to all-irelands tipp spend over a million alone last year on the hurlers in the championship.

What exactly are you having a go at here, my point is that snuff is saying counties should copy dublin example weaker counties just cannot do that, granted fair play to ye but to go around saying everyone can copy us isn't realistic and also the fact is that dublin copied other counties aswell they just can do it to a greater level becuase of the club membership and resources they have. Look at another little money spinner ye have "The friends of dublin hurling" that aint anything new either in fact something like that was a legacy of what babs keating did in tipp in the late 80's early 90's setting up similar to get funding for coaching, the tipperary draw is a big money spinner for tipp. When I was a young lad back in the day that was the reason why we got in the two players for summer camps etc.

Lad the is part of the problem yes but it a bigger problem down the country than in dublin as dublin have the clubs the membership and therefor the players and resources to back it up as do counties like my own..... but to say ye should all copy us is absolutely stupid how can a small county with say a population of 40,000 compete on that sort of a level personell and money wise!! What dublin people should be saying is yes it us working for us now we should try and get it to work for other counties but giving them cold hard cash they need, or at least admit that yer situation is a polar opposite to the situation being encountered by other smaller weaker counties.

The fact that dublin havn't been winning all-ireland in both codes consistantly has shown the waste and disorganisation of the county board to be honest, and to say now look at what were doing now every one should copy us well ye copied they formula from other counties and have the resources to back it up.... that is something other counties will never have unless things change.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 15/08/2011 19:08:49    1011683

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hag i never said anything about other countys should follow us or not but if your saying about money dublin has more money because it generates more money simple as it also needs more money as the more clubs and people you have playing the more you have to spend.my point is hurling only people are the ones who are actualy holding the game back in weaker countys they have a real problem with football instead of focusing on hurling there trying to compete with football instead of competing with other hurling countys

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 15/08/2011 19:27:32    1011704

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Snuf:

Firstly ye didn't come up with this magical "blue print" ye compied what was being done already only ye did it on a larger scale because of the clubs and no the likes of Westmeath etc. can't because they do not get the money that dublin get simple as that tell me how many teams are in dublin and the venture a guess at how many teams are in those counties. I'll take roscommon for instance you may think not a hurling county well you be wrong they have a few hradcore hurling clubs but pretty much have to fund everything themselves and their fundraise just as hard as people within dublin be don't have the access to people and therefore funds.

And to say that counties should copy the dublin example is not possible unless the have access to the funds dublin have. It is successful in dublin as you have a greater amount of people to draw from a different model has to be used for other weaker counties.

"When we have all these rural clubs in weak hurling counties where football is king having to amalgamate to survive, what real good is a hurling development officer to a club that without amalgamating can hardy field a team in its first love...football, nevermind hurling!!"

Tell me what you know about rural clubs and the problems they face, also wasn't amalgamation the start of the dublin hurling revolution that is what Tom O'donnell started with the schools but when you in rural ireland that is easier said than done I know as my club has had to do it in the past at underage it doesn't work most of the time, something dublin clubs rearly have to worry about in fact the number of clubs grew in dublin.

I was I being arrogant we are all-ireland champs and playing a team depleted by injuries and we beat them even if they adopted a mainly defensive mode..... where are you the notion that the dubs would wallop us.... remind me who won again. And also you went on to say you have this undying confidence in every dublin team you are involved in (yet to explain your involvement to us) you are a supporter there is a bit of a difference!!!

hill16no1man:
P.s are you still tealling me that dublin have got no funds from the leinster council or croke park...... No seriously now are ya??

I just think it rich trying to make out ye've done it all yerselves when that's not the case, granted I not a football man so I wouldn't be blowing on about the success the tipp footballers are having underage but that is due to getting help from out side and copying other counties, ye seem to think that dublin have made a new blueprint well they havn;t they only copied what was successful in other counties and have the player resources and financial resources to push it through fair play to ye, and to say that all counties should now copy ye is a bit rich (pardon the pun) becuase they don;t have the members players and ultimately the money that ye have and until at least the money situation can be leveled that is the way it will stay.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 15/08/2011 19:41:27    1011723

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hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 935

1011041
croke park or the gaa gave no money towards dublin coaching at underage thats a disgrace to say that as dublin have worked through marketing and advertising to get the money and bring hurling up to a higher level


Right is that not exactly what you said earlier in the thread??? Dublin have done well out of funding from croke park and the leinster council at least admit that

my point is hurling only people are the ones who are actualy holding the game back in weaker countys they have a real problem with football instead of focusing on hurling there trying to compete with football instead of competing with other hurling countys


Your being a bit hypocritical now I know for a fact as recent as 2 years ago that the same complaints were being make at county board meeting in dublin and now because dublin are being successful that's all been forgotten.... the simple fact is that dublin dosen't have to choose as they can easily be successful at both smaller counties do not have that luxury.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 15/08/2011 19:48:37    1011733

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