I made a comment on a post after the Wexford versus Kilkenny game. I want to get other peoples opinions.
I've just looked at a replay of the Dublin versus Galway game and noticed this too.
Alot of the top hurling teams seem to take as many steps as they want when getting out of trouble, if they are off balance and if they are driving through a group of players when attacking.
On many occasions this can be anything up to nine steps without any frees been given. When Wexford played Kilkenny I also noticed that the Kilkenny players tended to take alot more steps. The first reaction of the Wexford players was to try and get rid of it as quickly as possible when confronted by opposition players.
The first reaction of Kilkenny players was to run as fast as they could and get as many steps of the could before releasing the ball. Is this a tactic that is coached?

Nick (Wexford) - Posts: 1100 - 21/06/2011 12:14:23    961760

It seems to me refs are calling this more and more by the lenght of time a ball is held.... rule is

"The ball may be carried in the hand for a
maximum of four consecutive steps or held in
the hand for no longer than the time needed to
take four steps."

To be honest the refs have to be a bit lenient on this if they didn't it would totally ruin the game. I don't think the strictness of the four step rule has ever been implyed to the letter of the law but shold be done within reason. I think the time a ball is held in the hand is a better way to call this, its can be hard for a ref to see the amount of steps taken by a player.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 21/06/2011 12:38:52    961777

A lot of the time they're playing advantage, I presume.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 21/06/2011 12:51:16    961792

Funny I noticed the same thing the other night when watching the Sunday Game - a couple of the Cork goals were after the playing running a lot more than the 4 steps allowed. Not singling out Cork btw but just was more noticable as they had so many goals in the game.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 21/06/2011 12:51:27    961793

If they don't think the number of steps are enough they should change the rule. If a team is coached properly then they can take real advantage of this situation and definitely looking at the likes of Dublin, Kilkenny and others they do take alot of steps more than the allowed.
At the end of the day the rules are their to ensure the game is fair. I definitely counted one Dublin player taking 9 or 10 steps before turning to fire the ball over the bar.
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing more steps because we'd probably encourage a more attacking game but if this is the way we are going then the rules should be changed for everybody.

Nick (Wexford) - Posts: 1100 - 21/06/2011 12:54:23    961796

should have been: player running

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 21/06/2011 12:54:49    961797

I think you're reading too much into this to be honest.

I would say the majority if not all hurlers take more than 4 steps when under pressure, if they're being flanked by defenders, trying to get out of a scramble with the ball, if they have been shouldered for example

You see that in every game & refs tend to let it go in those circumstances which is good to see because it happens many times in an atypical game and it would be daft for that to be blown up every time

I would say the refs blow it up for steps when they judge that a player has taken too many steps when in the ref's judgement, they could easily have at least tipped the sliotar off the hurl - (on a side note, I see a lot of hurlers these days tend to bounce the sliotar off the ground with the hurl to avoid conceding a free based on steps taken - which is a really great skill)

Personally, I think your argument lies within the circumstances of the moment in any given game, but to suggest that the number of allowable steps varies because you play for a certain county is well, too sweeping and too provocative in my opinion

gigoer (Wexford) - Posts: 1998 - 21/06/2011 12:55:26    961798

Also Nick I don't think it's certain teams that exploit this leyway you see it in every team from senior championship to u10 hurling team up and down the country I would thing since hurling was first played under gaa rules. Thank god refs don't enforce it to the rule of the game would be ruined.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 21/06/2011 13:02:26    961805

Agree with Hag. Time in the hand is much easier to call. How about changing the rule to reflect that exactly?

'Though shalt not hold ball in hand for more than two seconds' or 'for longer than the individual ref deems reasonable'

Culchie (Cork) - Posts: 799 - 21/06/2011 13:05:43    961812

I think Nick they should up the number of allowable steps to maybe 6 and fully enforce it. I am always roaring for "steps" at matches and think the referees do not enforce it at all.

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 21/06/2011 13:05:53    961813

i think you make a fair point but hag is right, twould ruin the game if they were to blow everytime.

Il say one thing, some referees are very very slow to blow for steps especially when a man is bearing down on goal.

They should probably change it to 5 or 5 steps...

one thing which hag mentioned i find kind of a grey area, "time needed to take four steps", does this mean if your alone and stood still for a few seconds that its a free?.. i dont like this rule at all, it should be black and white, 4 steps is no free, 5+ is a free, it leads to uncertaintly to presume how long it takes to make 4 steps

miketyson (Limerick) - Posts: 2748 - 21/06/2011 13:16:49    961829

"but to suggest that the number of allowable steps varies because you play for a certain county is well, too sweeping and too provocative in my opinion "

I never suggested that, that's your interpretaion. All I said was I noticed that some teams seem to take more steps. I asked if people thought that maybe it was coached by some teams. To suggest that this could be coached is not such a ridiculous idea. There are lots of things coached in the game to give teams that bit of an advantage. This is why tactics constantly change and the way the game is played changes because of this.
I'm also sure that coaches of some teams have encouraged their players to throw a hurl over the shoulder if they are defending to slow a player down.
A coach wouldn't be doing his job correctly if he wasn't constantly looking for ways to get his team an advantage.
One thing I also notice about Dublin is they constantly us the little one-handed flip of the ball over a short distance to another player close by. Wexford don't do this either so all I'm saying is that potentially there are tactis out there that our team isn't being coached to do.
I like everybody want to see the game open and flowing but there are rules their and if you are going to let a fella take 9 steps because he turned 2 times then fair enough but you have to do it for everybody. There are definitely inconsistencies in there game.
Here is the ultimate scenario, your team is in the All-Ireland final, the opposition full forward gets the ball in the final minute (2 points down) of the game takes 7 steps and smashes it to the net. Whistle goes, your team looses. Sure nobody really cares about the guy who took 9 steps to get out of trouble in the full back line but suddenly this rule or lack of a rule that we all love so much has just cost your team the All-Ireland final will you all still be saying sure look that's the way it goes sometimes the ref calls it and others they don't...
To me they should extend to 6 steps for all and ensure that players stick to this.
DJ Carey was a legend but he was also a master and exploiting this rule to get those crucial goals.

Nick (Wexford) - Posts: 1100 - 21/06/2011 13:43:21    961861

Agree with Mike & Pinkie, it has to be steps. 4 is too short so increase it to 6 as Pinkie said and blow every single time a player takes more than that. It might be frustrating for a while but players will take notice quickly and it will stop.

county man (Limerick) - Posts: 1156 - 21/06/2011 13:45:59    961864

what a lot of hurlers are doing now is when they are bottled up they are throwing the ball a yard or two in front of them and then letting it bounce onto the hurley
this technically should be a free for throwing the ball

thurlesblues (Tipperary) - Posts: 4475 - 21/06/2011 14:05:57    961899

I've noticed when playing hurling up in the north, refs are very strict with the over carrying rule. 4 or 5 steps and a free is given. When we go down south, to play games the ref seems to let this slide a bit allowing maybe a few steps extra.

Long_John (Down) - Posts: 299 - 21/06/2011 14:37:17    961928

With all due respect Nick you said

'Alot of the top hurling teams seem to take as many steps as they want'

which would imply a favourtism towards bigger teams. May not be what you meant, but that's another discussion in any case.

Perhaps it's a coaching tip as you suggest. Still, the steps rule, while you see it every game, seems like a fairly decent rule that is properly applied for the most part, to change it would invite a disaster like the handpass rule fiasco in the football, I think it's better to master the current rule by tactics/training as you've alluded to, rather than come up with a new rule altogether

gigoer (Wexford) - Posts: 1998 - 21/06/2011 14:53:42    961943

Long_John
County: Down

I've noticed when playing hurling up in the north, refs are very strict with the over carrying rule. 4 or 5 steps and a free is given. When we go down south, to play games the ref seems to let this slide a bit allowing maybe a few steps extra.

I blame the education system Long John.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 21/06/2011 15:32:00    962002

you certainly don't get away with it at club level, thats for sure

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1905 - 21/06/2011 16:04:06    962067

thurlesblues:
Had to look out the window for flying pigs there a valid and insightful input from the boy blue, have to say I agree with you on this..... I also think it's hard for a ref to make an accurate call on such things as he would need to be right up there with the play and with the speed of hurling it's often hard for a ref to do this. I think the linemen and umpires should have more input in such calls I'm fairly sure that a ref has to look for the other officals input on referring decisions.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 21/06/2011 16:13:30    962079

I'm as shocked as you Hag & can only hope it becomes a habit for the boy blue

Still, what I was saying earlier on, is that the handpass fiasco in last year's football is the perfect example of screwing around with the rules unnecessarily and ending up with complete a mess & refereeing inconsistency

By the same token, if the steps rule were to be altered by the system or scrutinised by linesmen, are we not asking for trouble?

To ask the question more directly, is there anything wrong with the steps rule as it stands?

It's not as if it is the deciding factor in many games and as Nick alludes to, if teams are being coached to avail of it, then that's pretty clever coaching that doesn't deserve to be punished

gigoer (Wexford) - Posts: 1998 - 21/06/2011 16:22:19    962096