David Cameron gave a very interesting speech recently at a defence and security conference in Germany. He was talking about the causes of terrorism and how the state can fight extremists gaining a foothold in society. He claimed that extremist groups were infiltrating publicly funded institutions like universities and radicalising young scholars. Interestingly, he said the argument from those on the left that terrorism is bred out of poverty and lack of social security, ignored the fact that many of those in the UK accused of terrorism were graduates.

The opinions of Mr Cameron were also echoed by Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy. They add to a growing number of world leaders who have condemned multiculturalism such as former Australian PM John Howard and Spanish ex-premier Jose Maria Aznar.

So the policy of allowing communities and ethnic groups to co-exist has failed. There must now be an effort on behalf of national governments to integrate and not segregate immigrants.

It'll be interesting to hear the views of the HS faithful on this issue, as we have many posters divided across the left/right spectrum.

Sergeant_Slash (Cavan) - Posts: 2182 - 13/02/2011 12:13:05    866324

Where I live its all white Irish. In the nearby town there are polish etc....overall there was not a major problem with them.
What grinds me gears is the non-nationals who are still here lounging around on the dole.
Also why do we have to change OUR way of life to suit outsiders. Like that incident where a hospital couldn't put up a crib because it offended the non-christian doctors and patients. What a load of bull.......I personally dont have a problem with foreigners but when they are in Ireland they should obey our laws and our way of life.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11836 - 13/02/2011 13:06:12    866354

It'll be interesting to hear the views of the HS faithful on this issue, as we have many posters divided across the left/right spectrum

Good post Sergeant. Obviously, I'm on the same side of the spectrum as you!

There are two points I think need to be made.

1. Yes, if you come here, you should integrate. Different customs and traditions are cool, like in KK there are now several special food shops, Polish, etc. I'm all for that. But if you come to Ireland, you should become Irish. The GAA has a role to play in that, the Irish language needs to be be better taught, as it is important to our heritage. Our history needs to be taught more, and traditions such as storytelling, and the whole Irish mythology thing needs to be emphasised. It's great to see the likes of Sean Og playing for Cork, and hopefully in the future there will be Polish sounding players and black players and all sorts playing in Croke Park and wearing the green.

2. Now for the more controversial point. Islam. Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs-none of them are responsible for large scale terrorist atrocities in Europe. There is no Hindu version of Al-Qaeda. Also, none of these religions is as prevalent among potential immigrants. There are over a billion Muslims in the world, far more than any of the other religions listed. And more of them want to move to Ireland and other European countries.

But they can't integrate. They just can't. Their religion is far, far too different from ours for them to settle here, and live happily. Look at Britain, or France, or Germany, or anywhere else in Europe. The problems are only increasing. The first generation keeps their heads down, and works hard, but the second generation grows resentful of their being outsiders in the land they were born. Radicalism becomes a problem, and war and martyrdom becomes the objective.

Do we really want this problem in our country in twenty years time? Because, if we allow large scale Islamic immigration, this will happen. Do we want protests by angry Muslims on St. Patrick's Day? Do we want Islamist-Secularist campaigns to downgrade our Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter? Do we want our Irish Christian culture to be destroyed the way the Christian civilisations of North Africa, Turkey and the Middle East have been wiped out?

Let's avoid this problem. We need immigrants, especially when our economy returns to growth. And we should focus on attracting immigrants from CHRISTIAN countries. I don't care what church they belong to, our how often they frequent it. But I'd like those coming here to be from Christian countries such as Poland, or Latin America. That way the integration process will be much easier for all concerned. We will preserve our Christian character, and we will also benefit from the diversity and richness that new cultures bring with them.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 13/02/2011 13:45:05    866371

13/02/2011 12:13:05
Sergeant_Slash
County: Cavan
Posts: 225

866324
David Cameron gave a very interesting speech recently at a defence and security conference in Germany. He was talking about the causes of terrorism and how the state can fight extremists gaining a foothold in society. He claimed that extremist groups were infiltrating publicly funded institutions like universities and radicalising young scholars.



They must be the ONLY students who can afford the £200,000 a year it now costs to be a student.

When faced with rising unemployment, it is not a good idea to blame the government, especially if you are the PM. So you divide and conquer the workers and blame something else, drugs, drink, immigration, whatever.

Take a very good look at the next time England play a soccer match, and see if you can spot many WHITE supporters.

Multiculturalism is one of the very few things that actually has worked in England and it does the country proud.

A shame that Cameron is playing the racist card to cover up mistakes made by the multi national controlled Labour and Conservative parties.

Shame on the man.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 13/02/2011 14:00:04    866382

yew_tree
County: Mayo
Posts: 2151

What a load of bull.......I personally dont have a problem with foreigners but when they are in Ireland they should obey our laws and our way of life.




Like being on the dole? These people were the ONLY people who would work for low wages during the good times, keeping the country going, now you want to penalise them for the rich man's failure?

It must really be easy being a rich person or a politician down south, given the inbred racism in many Irish people.

Pity the USA did not sink all those coffin ships in New York harbour during the famine years drowning all the beggars before they arrived to undermine the USA economy and take jobs from good white Americans.

The benign English, champions of the underdog, should have done the same with the MILLIONS of Irish beggars/immigrants who arrived to bleed the country dry.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 13/02/2011 14:04:49    866386

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 948

No Muslims cannot integrate, they just cannot?

Lovely generalisations.

There are problems with some people (not just Muslims) integrating into host societies alright but in Ireland i don't think it has been a major problem. (Maybe because we just have not had the high level of immigrants as other countries).

Radical Muslim fundamentalists, just like Radical Christian fundamentakist, are to be feared but ordinary Muslims, just like ordinary Christians, are not.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13844 - 13/02/2011 14:15:51    866390

patrique
County: Antrim
Posts: 11654

It is blatantly obvious that multi-culturalism has failed in the UK patrique. The policy of tolerance and freedom of speech, which was devised by the Labour government to cater specifically for Islamic immigration, has backfired enormously. It created a situation where extremists were given a foothold to preach hatred, and prey on young muslim men who felt they could not identify with UK society. So instead of tolerating difference and allowing these people to hold onto their old habits, we must incorporate them into European society. That means that the Iraqi who comes to Europe and remains an Iraqi is a liability. He must forget about his old country, and pledge allegiance to the flag of his adopted nation.

Because if he doesnt, he feels out of place and he will look to his own once again. Sadly the people these men often turn to are extremists.

Sergeant_Slash (Cavan) - Posts: 2182 - 13/02/2011 14:18:59    866393

patrique - it has been proven that many non-nationals are getting social welfare here while working "back home". coming back on cheap ryanair flight to sign on. great country we live in alright.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11836 - 13/02/2011 14:28:08    866399

yew_tree
County: Mayo
Posts: 2152

866399 patrique - it has been proven that many non-nationals are getting social welfare here while working "back home". coming back on cheap ryanair flight to sign on. great country we live in alright.

Has it proven?

Not implying anything but have you any genuine figures/stats to back this up?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13844 - 13/02/2011 14:31:52    866401

Please read my post MesAmis, before accusing me of making lazy generalisations. I've put forward plenty of evidence to support my views. There are all sorts of problems with Muslims, but very little with Jains, Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. Islam, therefore, is itself the problem.

Of course we haven't had huge problems, we only have 30,000 or 40,000 Muslims, who've just arrived. We will have problems if we continue to allow mass Muslim immigration though, and they will be the same problems every other European country that's allowed mass Muslim immigration has faced.

Radical Christian fundamentalists are few and far between. When was the last time 19 priests hijacked planes and flew them into skyscrapers whilst singing 'Ave Maria'?

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 13/02/2011 14:44:17    866406

"We must Americanize in every way, in speech, in political ideas and principles, and in their way of looking at relations between church and state. We welcome the German and the Irishman who becomes an American. We have no use for the German or Irishman who remains such... He must revere only our flag, not only must it come first, but no other flag should even come second." Theodore Roosevelt.

This is the approach Europe must now take in respect of immigrants.

Sergeant_Slash (Cavan) - Posts: 2182 - 13/02/2011 14:48:15    866409

Seamus 89

2. Now for the more controversial point. Islam. Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs-none of them are responsible for large scale terrorist atrocities in Europe. There is no Hindu version of Al-Qaeda. Also, none of these religions is as prevalent among potential immigrants. There are over a billion Muslims in the world, far more than any of the other religions listed. And more of them want to move to Ireland and other European countries.

Eh, the Tamil Tigers are Hindu are they not? Or do you consider them freedom fighters? I know they didn't really attack the west but they patened the suicide bomb and al-Qaeda learnt a lot from them.

Anyway I'm all for multiculturalism. I agree with Seamus that preserving our own culture is the priority but I see no reason why we can't embrace and learn from other countries. Some of them do certain things better than us you know.

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 13/02/2011 15:01:37    866413

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 949

You did put forward evidence and I take your point however you say that Islam itself is the problem.

Islam is not the problem but Islamic fundamentalism is a problem. You might not think that the distinction is important but to me it is the very heart of the issue at the moment.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13844 - 13/02/2011 15:09:36    866415

The Tamil Tigers are nationalists freedom fighters, the fact that they're Hindu is irrelevant. Theirs is a conflict over land, not religion. As for Al-Qaeda learning from them, they probably learned from the IRA too, and the IRA learned from the Boers, and the Boers learned from the Zulus, and so on and so forth. It doesn't really matter where terrorists acquire their knowledge.

What exactly can we learn from Islam? Respect for democracy? Respect for women? Tolerance towards other religious groups? I don't see much in the Islamic world worth copying.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 13/02/2011 15:14:53    866419

roundball
County: Tipperary
Posts: 1259


Anyway I'm all for multiculturalism. I agree with Seamus that preserving our own culture is the priority but I see no reason why we can't embrace and learn from other countries. Some of them do certain things better than us you know.

They tried that with Islam in the UK. All it did was radicalise young men and give extremists a platform. In other words it failed.

Sergeant_Slash (Cavan) - Posts: 2182 - 13/02/2011 15:21:42    866425

Cameron's speech was discussed on Question Time this week. It was interesting to see Asian people in the audience supporting issues he raised. Which in its self would indicate that it hasn't totally failed in Britain anyway. Which is where you would have to take your view point from as Cameron was saying it as a British Prime Minister.

Cultural differences between different races and religious beliefs will naturally dived people anywhere in the world. What happens here is the majority of people are allowed to practice pretty much what they want as long as they follow the laws of the land. Most are tolerant to other believes which pretty much allows us to live our lives without to much trouble.

You will always find that people will stick with there own kind as they feel more comfortable in those surroundings. it is no different with the Irish or the Indians or the West Indians etc. I think it has something to do with a feeling of still being a part of your home place to. I know this is definitely the case for many of the Irish people i know here.

I know a few Polish people who moved over he years ago, they do seem to integrate better into Britain's society as do Irish people. mainly due to there Christian beliefs. Logic would say that they would not have far to travel to under stand what makes the country tick and become part of its system.

Other religious beliefs Muslim, Seek etc naturally would find things very different as not only do they have to struggle with a new country as there new home, they will have a faith issue. Also possibly a colour issue to try to come to terms with. To add to that some of there religious beliefs may be seen as extreme to many westerners eyes. This develops a situation where the majority of these people stick to there own kind and live life almost as they would as if they were still in there own country. This leads to the problem of a lack of integration. But hey if they can live in my city and don't bother me and don't try to push there beliefs onto me i don't have a problem with that.

I respect there beliefs and i would hope they would mine. The obvious 9/11 and 7/7 tragedy's will always cloud the issue as trust is tested to the full. The key is don't let few fundamental idiots dictate, as this is there aim.

Ireland is only a baby in terms of a country trying to find it's way. It will fail and hopefully learn from its mistakes and learn from other countries failings. The current economic crisis makes progression ever more difficult at present as the blame game kicks in. The old who can i blame to get me of the hook trick and all that. But hopefully in time things will settle down and we can all move on. A nice way for Mr Cameron to deflect issues from the current economic issues he is facing in his own country is my honest opinion on his speech and that is it.

Mancirish (UK) - Posts: 2200 - 13/02/2011 15:25:44    866430

I'm totally in agreement with Seamus :)

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 13/02/2011 16:00:10    866455

When the Irish and Italians first went to the United States they mostly lived and socialised in their own communitie. Likewise the Irish in Britain kept themselves to themselves because they felt alienated and unwelcome. During the conflict the British media stereotyped EVERY Irish person as a 'terrorist' and their right wing media editorials blamed the entire Irish nation for what the IRA was doing, in response of to British brutality, murder and cover ups in Ireland. Now the Muslim community is being tarnished because of the actions of the fundamentalists; people by the way who are being radicalised by the West's murder of 100's of 1000's of Muslim people in the Middle East. Can people not see that the West is reaping what it has sown? As Patrique has said multi-culturalism has laregly succeeded in Britain for both the Irish, Black and Muslim community but the British media and right wing Tory Establishment, like it did to the Irish, needs a baddie to blame everything on. Islam and Muslim people fit their bill nicely and it is shocking bigotry of the worst kind. Take a look at John Pilgers recent documentary about what the West is doing in Irag and Afghanistan and then see maybe why there is so much rage, anger and frustration amongst these people. It's like any conflict around the world; when people are pushed to the edges and extremes they resort to the worst actions that are borne out of despair and hopelessness.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9838 - 13/02/2011 16:01:54    866457

islam is not a problem its a big problem , whatever way you want to look at this , governments have tried different angles on multiculturism in many forms but its has failed why , certain sects within society grind out their own areas or patches as some would put it , and live among themselves without any integration whatsoever , now if thats what they want so be it , i am not against that personally but leave the blame game with them , its the way they want to conduct themselves in life , without interacting with other faiths , just stop putting pressure oon western society on how we should change things and appease their ways of life , some of which are very onorthadox to say the least , we could go into arranged marriages , not allowed to shake the hand of male , honour killings within western democracy , this is what we are up against , not to mention the ever rising islamic fundamentalism which is a very serious issue , you tell me once we get passed of all of these issues , they will suddenly sit down and start to mix with other cultures , simply they do not want to know! , they are many hidden agendas that we still have not seen in realation to all of the above . the dogooders need to open their eyes .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 13/02/2011 16:09:26    866459

Are you being sarcastic Seanie Boy?

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 13/02/2011 16:12:16    866464