Would Dan Breen approve of the smokoing ban

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 17/01/2011 21:04:16    848340

Ok comrade, I get it.

When socialism descends into dictatorship, genocide and famine, then it's not really socialism at all, is it now?

Very convenient sort of excuse. And like a good red you used Jesus to justify your position, which is strange given the hostility of both socialists and communists to Christianity. Read up on what happened to the Russian Orthodox Church after the Revolution, or the Catholic Church during the 'Red Terror' that the great General Franco brought to an end. Now there was a right wing dictator you could set your watch too. Ahhh...

Christian Communists of the world, unite!

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 17/01/2011 21:14:00    848356

Abhiann

I have read contemporary accounts from no less than Dan Breen himself, in his book 'My Fight for Irish Freedom' he describes the openly hostile public reaction to events at Soloheadbeg - it is evident in the minutes of the subsequent Dail meeting, evident in the newspaper editorials, evident in the published letters of the Catholic Church - all of which were scathing in their criticism of the men who carried out the attack.

SF received 47% of the popular vote in 1918, it was not in any way shape or form a mandate for war. SF did not stand on an electoral platform on the basis of starting a war, Griffith was never in favour of violence.

Accounts of widespread intimidation are freely available, in one instance a gun was pointed to the head of a returning officer who was about to declare a non - SF win ! The electorate of 1918 was the same electorate which endorsed the division of Ireland and Home Rule for 26 counties encompassing an oath of allegiance to the British monarch; they did not want a war in 1918 or 1922.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 18/01/2011 12:13:21    848515

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 708

that the great General Franco.

I take it your not a big fan of democracy either,, opus dei?

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 18/01/2011 13:21:05    848594

artisan.

all fair points. however, any account of vote percentages must take into account that 25 constituencies did not even have a contest as the support for Sinn Féin was so great. If one was to assume the same average turnout, and the same support for SF in those constituencies as those they won in, (which is extremely conservative), then they would have 53% of the vote. If they had won by more, as was exceptionally likely to be the case, they would have had above 60% of the vote, an overwhelming mandate. We should also not lose sight of the fact that, in any event, they won 73 of 105 seats.

Soloheadbeg and the reaction to it is an interesting point. Breen said they wanted to kill policemen, and actively went out looking for RIC to kill. The two they met, were popular locally. They effectively killed two nice guys who had no idea there was a war on, that they had to defend themselves, or who had been given a chance to leave the service of the RIC. They murdered them without chance of surrender, and They had not gotten a mandate from the Dáil yet either.

To a degree they have been justified by what went on afterwards, but to confuse Soloheadbeg and the reaction to it with popular support for the volunteers on a national basis would be incorrect.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 18/01/2011 13:24:55    848603

abhainn.
i have also read the fight for irish freedom , great insight from dan breen and his perception and struggle for the freedom of his country a great man , however the first shots were fired at solohead that sparked the war the first flames of the war of freedom , and from your post in referring to that and the fight that was followed throughout the country , your points are spot on and agree fully with your last piece of your post on the interests and ideas on a national perception and support .. good thought and well constructed post abhainn.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 18/01/2011 14:25:52    848667

abhainn

Whether the fact SF got elected in so many constituencies uncontested is a measure of their support or an indication of the total collaspe of the IPP is debatable. Sf were also in the habit of nominating high profile candidates in several constituencies, with the likes of Dev and Griffith holding multiple seats. Michael Collins was also elected uncontested, it is a matter of historical fact that Volunteer Bobby Sands received 30,000 more votes than the Michael Collins ever did.

As it is abhainn I respect your views and have enjoyed our exchange.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 18/01/2011 14:41:08    848682

I agree with you artisan, and ta, and sands did receive 30,000 more votes than Collins or Mellows or whoever did in 1918. The support was there though. I hate the fact that our current president was unelected, and I suspect that even though I would have voted for Mellows in my constituency in 1918, I'd have been annoyed at being denied the opportunity to vote. The fault for that lies with the IPP and the Unionists though, as it was they who decided they hadn't a hope of winning a seat or even polling a respectable number

Also enjoyed the exchange!

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 18/01/2011 15:05:37    848709

liam mellows.

we do not seek to make this country a materically great country at the expense of its honour in any way whatsoever.
we would rather have this country poor and indigent , we would rather have the people of irelansd eking out a poor existence on the soil, as long as they possessed , their souls , their minds , and their honour .
this fight has been for something more than the fleshpots of empire ..

this man was a man who loved his country , and a man who held convictions clear and inconsistencys a man with honour who loved his people and his country . i hold liam mellows with the highest regards .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 18/01/2011 15:57:31    848752

liam mellows was consistent thats what i meant , sorry for the typo mistake, abhainn .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 18/01/2011 16:15:08    848764

ta

he was, and he was the most eloquent voice against the treaty. Not as big a loss to the country as Collins, but I think those two were the real hammer blows to Ireland in the Civil War. He really was a patriot in every sense of the word.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 18/01/2011 16:56:54    848814

Who was this Dan Breen fella? tell me in bullet point form so I don't have to read a bunch of screed.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 18/01/2011 16:57:32    848816

htaem.meath.
is your floor unlevel , the screed should sort that out ;D.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 18/01/2011 17:02:12    848826

HTAEM.
only joking dan breen was a member of the I.R.B, then joined the irish volunteers in 1914 , later on after the easter rising and the elections of 1919 , he joined a group of men lead by sean treacy and notably the first shots of the war of indapendence were fired at soloheadbheg in county tipperary which resulted in two R.I.C members being killed , he then joined in several ambushes and attacks within the tipperary brigade which eventually leading a 10,00 pound bounty on his head , he was also very vocal against the treaty and joined ant-treaty forces in his response of the treaty that pursued , he eventually became member of the dail as a T.D in 1927 ,.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 18/01/2011 17:11:00    848844

Htaem
County: Meath
Posts: 2270

848816 Who was this Dan Breen fella? tell me in bullet point form so I don't have to read a bunch of screed.

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Didnt he play for Ireland for a bit... The lanky looking bloke in the full back line???

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 18/01/2011 17:18:32    848856

abhainn.
also i have been to dan breens grave at donohil and also sean tracy who is buried at kifeacle , but as i have been informed while been on these journeys sean tracey and his family home is near anglesborogh in county limerick , which is around the glen of aherlow , galbally , ballylanders , it is places of which should be visited they are a lot of history around these parts , it is very interesting , also there is a monument near the family home of sean tracy in anglesborogh it was very good to see all these places and the history that came with it , dan breen is buried on a hill in donohill .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 18/01/2011 17:20:12    848857

jimbodub.
you on about the big fella ;D.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 18/01/2011 19:02:04    848980

If Dan were alive now he could be flying planes into buildings in the cause of freedom.

And would we still hail him as a freedom fighter or call him terrorist and hope the USA and Britain hunted him down and shot him like a dog?

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 18/01/2011 20:42:15    849067

patrique
County: Antrim
Posts: 11242


If Dan were alive now he could be flying planes into buildings in the cause of freedom.

And would we still hail him as a freedom fighter or call him terrorist and hope the USA and Britain hunted him down and shot him like a dog?

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Flying planes into buildings ? No.

However I think it would be safe to assume he would almost definitely be supporting the brave Afghan rebels fighting imperialist forces in their own homeland.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 18/01/2011 21:02:56    849099

ta32
County: Tyrone
Posts: 3504

848980 jimbodub.
you on about the big fella ;D.
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More like the Long fellow... ;)

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 18/01/2011 21:05:53    849102