Yew Tree
I am impressed that you wish to understand the situation. For my part I can not say that what the IRA have done was right it obviously was not but I understand why they felt that they must take up arms. The IRA of the war of independence felt they were given no options either.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 15/01/2011 14:17:51    846836

Martin has basically prevented the Republican movement fom totally splitting and has probably been the most important individual in the Peace Process. He has done a 1000 of these interviews and swatted Tubridy away like a fly. Tubridy followed the usual RTE line when interviewing Republicans/Northern Nationalist i.e. be as hostile and unfriendly as possible to placate Unionists, Britain and the D4 crowd. There is real hostility to RTE in the Northern Catholic community which looks on it as weak, cowardly and driven by a total fear of offending Loyalists/Unionism and the West Brit Dublin media. One remembers the Gerry Adams Late Late Show 'interview' and Gay Byrne's refusal to shake his hand in contrast to his interview with the Britisn Northern minister Peter Brooke when Byrne laughed, jocked and played the piano with him. This is also the same media organisation that gave Rhonda Paisley her own chat show with all elements of the DUP in hock. Indeed RTE nauseates many of us in the North.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9816 - 15/01/2011 14:36:42    846850

Now Seamus are you sure you dont want to seperate into "The Old Church" and the modern Church or something like that.

Derryman

I've addressed the Old IRA-v-Provos question on other threads, I don't really want to go into that again here. I would like to deal with this Old Church v Modern Church thing though.

The sex abuse scandals were shocking, and disgraceful. No one can argue with that. But what about the immense good the Church has done historically, and continues to do, all over the country? What about the St. Vincent De Paul, the missionary works, the good work those monks are doing in Moyross, the countless priests, nuns and brothers that helped to educate people in this country and care for people in hospitals?

This never gets publicised. There is an agenda at play here, where certain media outlets, in particular 'The Irish Times' (a paper that has always existed to give support to foreign influence in this country's affairs, be it from London or Brussels) attack the Church mercilessly, highlighting the bad and ignoring the good. I find this agenda disgusting.

The Christian Brothers are a favourite target. Obviously, there is some merit in a lot of what is said about them. But a good deal of the hostility, especially from The Irish Times crowd is based around the Brothers' nationalism, their opposition to British imperialism in Ireland, their support for our native language and sports. The Christian Brothers never bowed to any English monarch, unlike many who buy that shoneen rag.

I'm an Irish Catholic. Capital I, capital C. I'm proud to be both. And for that reason I absolutely despise the dishonesty that goes along with so much of the coverage of the Church.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 15/01/2011 14:37:50    846851

Rhonda Paisley had a chat show on RTE? I remember watching Reeling in the Years, and there was some Paisley woman on RTE, interviewing him. I thought it was his niece...

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 15/01/2011 14:47:22    846858

Well said Yew Tree what would the people in the South Know about life in the troubles. I have said something similar in another thread. How would i know what those poor people had to live through? Until you experience it and live through it then you can have your say otherwise listen and learn and be careful to condemn as you do not know there situation or facts.

I don't feel i could honestly comment on life through the troubles as i did not experience them at 1st hand. I could not imagine how difficult it must have been at times and still is. Many wrongs and so much hurt are hard to heel, but in time please god they will. Rather than being critical of Martin Mcguinness, try to understand why he became the man he is. A very complexed character whose life has been controlled by a situation created over 800 years of war.

I meet many lads from the North over here and some are often very insular. Still during the time of the Celtic tiger they came to Manchester. More often than not because work was not available and they could not live with the troubles. How is that still the case after so long. I do feel for those people who have had to leave home just to have a chance in life. It makes me feel very fortunate as it should you in the South.

When my Father and Mother came to England, do you think they wanted to leave the place of there birth, i don't think so. They had no choice, now this is the closest i can get to how they feel and i know they both would have loved to have had a chance of growing up with there school mates and such as i have, but alas that opportunity was never going to be given to them. My dad especially loves his home place and pines when he is away from it. But his family is now here and that is the way it is.

Mancirish (UK) - Posts: 2200 - 15/01/2011 14:54:28    846861

Seamus
You are preaching to the converted here. I largely agree with what you say regarding the Church. A few bad apples have done it great harm and destroyed centuries of good work in this World. The Church hierarchy have contributed to that by trying to sweep much under the Carpet and are perhaps still sweeping.
I'm an Irish Catholic. Capital I, capital C. I'm proud to be both. And for that reason I absolutely despise the dishonesty that goes along with so much of the coverage of the Church.
I concur with the above sentiment entirely. AND
I'm an Irish Nationalist. Capital I, capital C. I'm proud to be both. And for that reason I absolutely despise the dishonesty that goes along with so much of the coverage of Sinn Fen and The IRA.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 15/01/2011 14:56:25    846865

Seamus

I've addressed the Old IRA-v-Provos question on other threads, I don't really want to go into that again here.

I dont wish to go into it either but you rest your argument on the fact that the "Old IRA" did not use vehicle to move bombs around. I agree, they had neither vehicle or the explosives. And that is the difference.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 15/01/2011 15:04:52    846872

McGuinness was on a winner here. Tubridy comes across as the sort of chap who has never had a hard day in his life. He is part of the elite. McGuinness is cut from the same cloth as Tubridy's grandad who was Dublin Brigade Volunteer.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 15/01/2011 15:17:59    846879

I never used that argument Derryman, for the simple reason that the IRA did use vehicles, and trains, and horse and carts, to move guns and explosives around during the War of Independence. And they had every right to do so.

I've posted here before, though I couldn't find the exact comment, about the difference between Old IRA and Provos.

There are two main differences: a) The cause they were fighting for, the support they had and the likelihood that physical force would achieve their aims, and b) their conduct during the war.

In both categories, the Old IRA are a class apart from the Provos.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 15/01/2011 15:23:52    846884

Seamus I find it hard to believe you are that Naive. Had the treaty been rejected by all of the IRA and LLyod George had delivered a great and terrible war to Ireland what would you now be saying. If the outcome of wars were preordained and public knowledge sure we wouldnt need them. You are in fact saying that 4 votes in the dail made the war of independence a good thing. The world is not so black and white to me I am afraid.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 15/01/2011 15:45:28    846894

Seamus, I had relations involved in the Dublin ASU and they shot men in front of their wives and children and shot a civil servant on a tram in front of the passengers. They also shot informers and civilian collaborators. If they had had semtex they'd have used it. War is war and not nice no matter who is prosecuting it.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 15/01/2011 15:50:08    846896

What do you mean 4 votes in the Dail Derryman?

Hurlingdub...I realise that the Old IRA did bad things as well, but they didn't do nearly as much bad things as the Provos, and their campaign was not sectarian in nature as the Provos were-I realise that the situation in the North complicated everything greatly. I have never believed in the 'Good War', there is no such thing.

Now I don't really have all day to discuss the IRA, and this topic has been done to death on this forum anyway, so can we call it quits?

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 15/01/2011 16:09:00    846907

Seamus
the dail voted 64 to 57 in favour of the treaty. Had 4 more members voted with the anti treatyites you would now be telling me that the war of independence was a bad thing.
...I realise that the Old IRA did bad things as well, but they didn't do nearly as much bad things as the Provos

That reminds me of a young girl telling her mother it is allright as she is only a little bit pregnant.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 15/01/2011 16:22:05    846916

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny


I take it you have never seen a loyalist death squad or a platoon of paratroopers tramping through houses and businesses?

wise_guy (Tyrone) - Posts: 1584 - 15/01/2011 16:31:50    846922

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny


And what are your views on the men of 1916-1921?

wise_guy (Tyrone) - Posts: 1584 - 15/01/2011 16:33:39    846923

I'll give Martin McGuinness his dues, he's a natural and there are few politicians in the North that you could pin that label on. As for being questioned about Adams role in the IRA, was he back Gough barracks or Castlereagh, surely thats a question for the bearded wonder to answer!

Jackie asked the question previously and I'm interested to know as well depite paddys response, what was his view on a royal visit?

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 15/01/2011 17:15:52    846944

he was against it because the queen is the head of the paras and only if she apoligises for Bloody Sunday would he accept a visit from them. Or something to that effect.

thistle_harps (UK) - Posts: 879 - 15/01/2011 18:58:13    847008

Thanks Thistle, we cant watch it here so was curious as to his rationale. Incidentally I thought it was old big ears who was commander in chief or whatever?

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 15/01/2011 19:13:01    847017

I loved that extended silence after McGuinness was asked how he felt when he heard about the Birmingham bombing. 'Horrified' he said, and then just stared Tubs out of it until one of them broke the silence, can't remember which one did now.

One word answers, stony silences, daggers for eyes...Martin McGuinness, Superprovo.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 15/01/2011 19:24:27    847023

brendtheredhand

If you look on RTE i player you can watch the full interview.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#

Mancirish (UK) - Posts: 2200 - 15/01/2011 20:05:50    847048