Good man dhorse. Now back to the drawing board with you my man, the revolution won't plan itself.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 09/01/2011 20:10:58    842684

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 602

842684 Good man dhorse. Now back to the drawing board with you my man, the revolution won't plan itself.

"my man' now there's a put down.. do you ride with hounds by any chance?

Evolution will always take its course, revolution just helps it along.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 09/01/2011 20:42:55    842730

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 602

842621 Ok, I see your points. I support a REASONABLE amount of secularism, as do the vast majority of Catholics. For me, that means a good mix of schools, Catholic schools, Protestant schools, secular schools, etc. I have zero time for the 'Happy Holidays' brigade, or those who get offended by the Angelus being on, or that nonsense. The country is what it is, and some eejits looking to be offended shouldn't be listened to.

Who should be the arbtitrator of REASONABLE, does it mean everyone has to be a bit Catholic

some eejits looking to be offended shouldn't be listened to........................I have zero time for the 'Happy Holidays' brigade,

a touch of intolerance there perhaps


Isn't intolerance what people, quite correctly, mostly fear from islam?

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 09/01/2011 20:55:32    842741

I have read all of what you have posted Seamus and you are beginning to scare me. Like I said read King Leopolds Ghost. It will open your eyes. Belgium refuse to acknowledge the scale of the genocide that took place. Millions died. You state your admiration for the state of Israel and Jewish tenacity and courage in the face of horrendous persecution. It was principally Christian culture which persecuted the Jews. One Irish TD during World War Two said that "we will not have the murderers of Christ on our shores".THe Germans are a Christian country.Christian culture aggressively expanded for hundreds of years. Read up on European empires of the last two hundred years and see what was done by European cultures. Read up on both World Wars and see what European cultures were responsible for. Read "Britains Gulag" and see what Britain was responsible for in Kenya within the last sixty years. Documents relating to this mass murder were shredded and to this day no acknowledgement of the murder of 100,000 Kenyans has happened. You continually refer to the most extreme elements of Islam and in so doing tar all of Islam with the same brush despite by your own admission having had negligible exposure to Islamic culture. You correctly express concern about the intent of extremist Islam. In articulating your views about Islam in general you unfortunately exhibite extremist tendencies yourself. I also believe Myers to be an extremist in his views.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6178 - 09/01/2011 21:02:40    842753

"Lets put it like this folks, in my college there is an Islamic week, where Islam themed events are held and the religion is promoted to others. Now, supposed I wanted to set up a Christianity week, there would be uproar from the Muslim student population, AND left wing Irish students bleating about tolerance and secularism. But if I dared complain about Islam week, or said it offended me, I'd be vilified in certain circles, and called all the names under the sun, xenophobe, racist, etc. You see, its perfectly fine for Muslims in Ireland and the UK to bash Christianity, but if the tables are turned, we get burning effigies, placards with slogans on them, angry mobs etc. Where is the respect from the other side people? "

*sigh* More 'us' and 'them'.

Lets pretend you did organise your Christianity Week. What's its purpose? To create public awareness of Christianity? I'm grand, thanks, I'm well aware of Christianity what with my Irish education and Catholicism being the state religion, and all. In fact, surely every week is Christianity Week in this country?

How do you know it would cause 'uproar' amongst your Muslim peers and reach the conclusion that "its perfectly fine for Muslims in Ireland and the UK to bash Christianity"? And don't even bother copy-and-pasting some link to a Daily Express story about what Anjem Choudary and half a dozen of his lunatic hangers-on have been getting up to recently. They no more represent Islam than Michael McKevitt represents you or I.

The point of your college's Islamic Week, I suspect, was to try and create some awareness about their minority religion, perhaps try and dispel the myths and drivel that gets peddled about Muslims nowadays. With that in mind, it's a pity you didn't participate in it a bit more, you might have learned something.

whereangelsplay (Cork) - Posts: 240 - 10/01/2011 13:37:35    842947

whereangelsplay
County: Cork
Posts: 110

842947 "Lets put it like this folks, in my college there is an Islamic week, where Islam themed events are held and the religion is promoted to others. Now, supposed I wanted to set up a Christianity week, there would be uproar from the Muslim student population, AND left wing Irish students bleating about tolerance and secularism. But if I dared complain about Islam week, or said it offended me, I'd be vilified in certain circles, and called all the names under the sun, xenophobe, racist, etc. You see, its perfectly fine for Muslims in Ireland and the UK to bash Christianity, but if the tables are turned, we get burning effigies, placards with slogans on them, angry mobs etc. Where is the respect from the other side people? "

You could set up a Magdalen laundry for the week.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 10/01/2011 15:00:38    843023

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 603

842621 Ok, I see your points. I support a REASONABLE amount of secularism, as do the vast majority of Catholics. For me, that means a good mix of schools, Catholic schools, Protestant schools, secular schools, etc. I have zero time for the 'Happy Holidays' brigade, or those who get offended by the Angelus being on, or that nonsense. The country is what it is, and some eejits looking to be offended shouldn't be listened to.

I'm not saying Christianity hasn't been used to justify bad things, but there is a two main differences between that and Islamic violence. Firstly, there is an entire violent worldwide campaign in the name of Islam at present, there is no such Christian claim. Secondly, it's a lot harder to use the Bible to justify violence than it is to use the Koran. The Islamic prophet was a warlord himself, after all. Jesus was not.

I have much more affinity for the people of Israel I'm afraid. They're a race that has been despised all over the world for thousands of years, and who have fought to maintain their identity and existence. All they have is a small sliver of land in Israel, and they've sacrificed so much to defend themselves since their countries foundation in 1948. I admire them a great deal.

What sinister objectives does Kevin Myers have? He merely wants to preserve the status quo of Ireland when it comes to our culture.


Ok so were pretty much agreed on the level of state secularism. However you are missing my point on Jihad and Christian violence. Islam is not a violent relgion, there are those that you use Islam as a means to justify violence when most Muslims do not support this "Holy War" or believe it is legitimate. I could go out tomorrow and start a war and claim Christianity as cause, that doesn't make it a legitimate cause or me a Christian for that matter. Also, Muslims are actually banned from taking part in armed conflict.

I would have a certain degree of sympathy for the Israelis also. They didn't put themselves in the position they are in. However my ultimate sympathy is with the Palestinians. That is another debate.

I didn't say Meyers had sinister objectives. He has his own viewpoint and ideaology and like anyone, he uses events around the world to justify that. It's why those events happen you need to ask, and what are the objectives of those who perpetrate them.

Lastly, fair play for engaging in a proper debate. Sadly there are fewer and fewer doing it on here between all the WUMming and sniping.

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 10/01/2011 18:51:43    843318

Right back at you roundball. It's good to have an informed debate alright.

My last point-and I'm not trying to have the last word, just summing up my argument-is to re-emphasise the difference between Jesus and Muhammed. One man of peace, one warlord. I could also point to Christianity's first few hundred years compared to Islam's first few hundred years...pacifism, oppression-v-violent conquest, forced conversion. That's the difference between the two as far as I'm concerned. All religions eventually suffer from corruption, and the founders vision is perverted. But with Islam, they were violent from the very beginning, as they were following the Prophet's instructions. You can't say the same about Christianity.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 10/01/2011 19:09:28    843340

Roundball
Lastly, fair play for engaging in a proper debate. Sadly there are fewer and fewer doing it on here between all the WUMming and sniping

That is one of the best comments I have seen on this forum. I enjoy engaging with people who wish to debate and share opinions. Seamus and yourself are two of the many posters I find are prepared to discuss and reply to the topic. There are too many specialists in the one line put downs who never actually contribute to the subject. And it certainly does spoil my enjoyment of this great forum.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 10/01/2011 19:11:41    843345

I don't read long posts !!

Four or five lines should be enough on a forum !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 10/01/2011 19:16:33    843357

That is one of the best comments I have seen on this forum. I enjoy engaging with people who wish to debate and share opinions. Seamus and yourself are two of the many posters I find are prepared to discuss and reply to the topic. There are too many specialists in the one line put downs who never actually contribute to the subject. And it certainly does spoil my enjoyment of this great forum.


Thanks Derryman. I think Pomeroy Plunkett could also be included in that category, despite your obvious differences. We're all just using the net to share ideas, express views, voice opinions, etc, and Pomeroy does that well. Does seem to have a hang up about Celtic alright, but other than that his comments are good.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 10/01/2011 19:17:36    843360

Also Derryman, I never got back to you about the IRA in the 1916-1921 period.

You did your research well, although you did include things from the Free State era that were outside the realm of IRA conduct. I am familiar with most of those cases.

For me, there are two differences between the IRA's cause in the War of Independence, and the cause in the Provo era.

Firstly, there was potential for a good resolution during the War of Independence. A majority of the public wanted the Brits out, and their government was prepared to make concessions. Because of the presence of the Protestant community in the Six Counties, this was never the case in the Provo era. It simply wasn't possible to bomb Protestants into a United Ireland. Bullets can't turn Orangemen into Irishmen. The situation in the North could never be resolved through violence, and the IRA were stupid and callous to carry on their campaign for so long, while at the same time acknowledging this fact.

Secondly, the scale of civilian casualties was much higher. I take your point about the increase in civilian casualties in modern conflicts, but the fact remains, the IRA were callous and cruel in bombing civilian areas in Ireland and Britain. I don't think Padraig Pearse, Tom Barry or Michael Collins would have put bombs in English pubs, or Protestant pubs, or any pubs. Soldiers don't do that. Murderers do.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 10/01/2011 19:24:41    843376

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 610

843340 Right back at you roundball. It's good to have an informed debate alright.

My last point-and I'm not trying to have the last word, just summing up my argument-is to re-emphasise the difference between Jesus and Muhammed. One man of peace, one warlord. I could also point to Christianity's first few hundred years compared to Islam's first few hundred years...pacifism, oppression-v-violent conquest, forced conversion. That's the difference between the two as far as I'm concerned. All religions eventually suffer from corruption, and the founders vision is perverted. But with Islam, they were violent from the very beginning, as they were following the Prophet's instructions. You can't say the same about Christianity

True, but the christians got right into it once they got the knack of it.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 10/01/2011 19:41:55    843404

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 610

843360 That is one of the best comments I have seen on this forum. I enjoy engaging with people who wish to debate and share opinions. Seamus and yourself are two of the many posters I find are prepared to discuss and reply to the topic. There are too many specialists in the one line put downs who never actually contribute to the subject. And it certainly does spoil my enjoyment of this great forum.

plucking figures out of the air can take the steam out of any great debate.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 10/01/2011 19:43:48    843406

I opined Dhorse...that 95% of the public find Fintan O'Toole sanctimonious and smug. From the reaction he gets whenever he appears on TV-check out his 'debate' with The Wolfe Tones on Youtube-I reckon that that would be a conservative estimate.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 10/01/2011 20:13:32    843437

Seamus
I cant accept that the Ira of 1921 were better than the latter they both had an objective that they pursued through the armed struggle. It might be worth noting that the catholic Bishops Of the day denounced the war of of independence because there was no chance of sucess against the British Empire. The majority that resides in the 6 counties was manufactured by drawing lines on a map and hence was always unjust and in any other democracy in the world unlawful. Putting bombs in pubs is wrong I have never argued otherwise It is surely as wrong as bombing the London underground the tower of london ( where there are always tourists) Bombing in liverpool Glasgow coventry and london. You seem to be able to take an IRA activist and when he then declares himself to be something other like for instance a Free State Soldier/Officer. A member of Cumann Na Gaedhal Or a Fianna Fail member his past and current actions are some how divorced from each other. I really dont think that Sinn fein changing its name and denouncing the Ira is the way forward. Having said that though it certainly seemed to work for Cumann Na Gaedhal the ACA/ Fine gael and Fianna Fail as political parties but did not further the cause of unification.
Where I am Seamus is very simple I wish one day to see some form of unification on this Island. The fact is there is more cross border co-operation now than was in 1969 (when the nationalist people cried out for the IRA to protect them). I can not argue whether this new cross border co-operation is because of or in spite of the IRA but we certainly are closer now than then. I want to see that continue until we are seen as one country in the eyes of the world. At this time there is only one political party that puts the unification of Ireland to the fore, so, until I am given a second option I will continue to vote for that party. The truth is that for 40 years people said we must follow a political path to unity now we are being told anyone who votes for that party are in some way party to the atrocities carried out by the IRA. It seems to me sometimes that the only people who want unification are those who support Sinn Fein. Many pay lip service to it but are to concerned about their own personal affairs to care about the affairs of the nation.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 10/01/2011 20:24:30    843459

Derryman

There are a number of reasons I don't support Sinn Fein. Firstly, there's the IRA stuff, won't go into that again. Secondly, there's the economic issues. They want higher taxes, mass nationalisation, far, far more state control; this is a recipe for economic stagnation. I'm not some sort of middle class rich kid either, but I can see from looking at history what economic policies work and what economic policies don't work.

That said, I do admire their strong support for Irish unity, and their unapologetic support for Irish language, culture and traditions. Not to mention their euroskepticism.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 10/01/2011 20:55:52    843513

Well Seamus I think it is obvious that the Economic Policies that almost brought the world to financial extinction has more than its fair share of faults.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 10/01/2011 21:55:54    843605

derryman
County: Derry
Posts: 2053

843605
Well Seamus I think it is obvious that the Economic Policies that almost brought the world to financial extinction has more than its fair share of faults.

Im going to sound like Patrique here, but dont you know the global recession was orchestrated by the Bilderburg Group to prevent economic growth in China?

Sergeant_Slash (Cavan) - Posts: 2182 - 11/01/2011 11:28:33    843777

Well Seamus I think it is obvious that the Economic Policies that almost brought the world to financial extinction has more than its fair share of faults

State socialism failed in the 80s and 90s. Can you recall the Berlin Wall coming down? Can you recall the horrible backwardness and poverty of the Soviet Union, and its slave states in the East of Europe?

Free market economics took a bit of a hit in 2008, but they're still going strong, and will not be going away any time in this lifetime. Private enterprise creates more wealth for more people than state socialism does. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

As for "financial extinction", that's completely over the top.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 11/01/2011 11:50:30    843803