Seamus we'll agree to disagree on Kevin Myers. I find him a boorish, sensationalist journalist who is extremely cavalier with facts. See if you can find his infamous article on single mothers and their children. That'll open your eyes. I don't believe that there exists such a thing as a brilliant newspaper columnist in Ireland. Frank Mc Nally is the one who comes closest. As for reading the paper over breakfast I unfortunately don't have the time. Children have to be got to school and I thankfully have a job to go to.

I would be careful of doing the same thing as Kevin Myers and making unsubstantiated, unsustainable generalisations. You make one with regards to "Sharia Law culture". Sharia Law is an extreme interpretation of Islam. There are many countries where it does not prevail. There are many countries where moderate muslims resist and refuse to allow Sharia Law to hold sway. People use Saudi Arabia as an example of an Islamic country. There are others where Sharia Law does not prevail. Turkey is just one example. Myers likes to generalise. One example is his assertion that whenever large numbers of Muslims come together there is trouble. Let him substantiate that. Like I said though ease off on the columnists. It's a particularly useless existence. Get yourself a good book instead. When I was at college Lord of The Rings was all the rage.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6178 - 08/01/2011 20:06:44    842222

Actually Greengrass, Turkey is a terrible example of a 'good' Muslim country.

Firstly, there's the Armenian Genocide, and the refusal to acknowledge that this atrocity even happened.

Secondly, there's the mistreatment of the Kurds, that continues to this day.

Thirdly, there's the restrictions placed on the tiny Christian community, restrictions that have led to a decrease in their already small numbers.

Fourthly, there's the role that the military plays in Turkish politics.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 08/01/2011 20:43:13    842244

Re Seamus89,
No need to thank me that's just you being smart again
all I was saying for a young man you seem to be an
authority on awful lot of subjects but just let me tell
one thing you can have as much school and University
education as you like and have as many letters after your
name but it doesn't give you the experience of age or living
in the real world where the real education begins.

Mulligan Eamonn (None) - Posts: 896 - 08/01/2011 20:46:31    842248

Seamius
Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. I did read that Article and I found it to be very General, lacking specifics and bordering on being Islamaphopic. He made no point regarding the settlement of musliims in the west that could not have been made about white Christians settling of Africa, Australia, America north and south, Asia and the subcontinent other than that the Christians brought an army with superior weapons, and systematically wiped out all opposition from day one. We did not even have the decency to wait a generation and learn the language of the cultures we annhilated. I am however looking forward to reading his article about the great wrong the west, through their foreign policies are bringing to the middle east and other muslim regions which is ultimately responsible for perpetuating extremism in Islam. I will say this again NO ONE HAS A MONOPOLY ON VIRTUE. We must learn from each other, we must listen to one another, and we will not force our values on other cultures or religions through the point of a gun. Irish people should be more aware of this than anyone.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 08/01/2011 21:17:10    842263

Seamus you didn't read what I said. I said Turkey is one example of a country which refuses to contemplaten Sharia Law forming the basis for the countries legal code. "Good" has nothing to do with it. The denial of The Armenian Genocide has nothing to do with your assertions about Sharia Law and Muslim countries. Belgium is a Christian country that still refuses to acknowledge king Leopolds responsibility for genocide in the Congo. Does that make Belgium and it's christianity "bad"? Bear in mind that what was done in The Congo dwarfs what happened to the Armenians. The fact is that you made an unsubstantiated generalisation ala Kevin Myers about Sharia Law and Muslim countries. Deal with the points I made and stop raising irrelevant issues. The Lord of The Rings is a great book by the way.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6178 - 08/01/2011 21:20:11    842266

Seamus you didn't read what I said. I said Turkey is one example of a country which refuses to contemplaten Sharia Law forming the basis for the countries legal code. "Good" has nothing to do with it. The denial of The Armenian Genocide has nothing to do with your assertions about Sharia Law and Muslim countries. Belgium is a Christian country that still refuses to acknowledge king Leopolds responsibility for genocide in the Congo. Does that make Belgium and it's christianity "bad"? Bear in mind that what was done in The Congo dwarfs what happened to the Armenians. The fact is that you made an unsubstantiated generalisation ala Kevin Myers about Sharia Law and Muslim countries. Deal with the points I made and stop raising irrelevant issues. The Lord of The Rings is a great book by the way.

Greengrass

I did deal with your points. Turkey is not a proper democracy. Look at the restrictions that are placed on the Christian community there, it's quite clear that they do not want Christians around the place. And while Ataturk distanced his country from Sharia, it has made a strong comeback in recent years. The veil is rearing its ugly head, adultery was very nearly made a criminal offence a few years back. Islamic fundamentalism used not to be a major problem in Turkey, but it is now. And I've read Lord of the Rings.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 09/01/2011 10:07:32    842302

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. I did read that Article and I found it to be very General, lacking specifics and bordering on being Islamaphopic. He made no point regarding the settlement of musliims in the west that could not have been made about white Christians settling of Africa, Australia, America north and south, Asia and the subcontinent other than that the Christians brought an army with superior weapons, and systematically wiped out all opposition from day one. We did not even have the decency to wait a generation and learn the language of the cultures we annhilated. I am however looking forward to reading his article about the great wrong the west, through their foreign policies are bringing to the middle east and other muslim regions which is ultimately responsible for perpetuating extremism in Islam. I will say this again NO ONE HAS A MONOPOLY ON VIRTUE. We must learn from each other, we must listen to one another, and we will not force our values on other cultures or religions through the point of a gun. Irish people should be more aware of this than anyone

Derryman. I'm not saying for a moment that anyone has a monopoly on virtue. What I am saying is that the Islamic culture of the Middle East is inferior to Christian culture of the West (sadly diminishing now, I'm afraid). The evidence is very clear in terms of political freedom, religious freedom, standard of living, levels of education, scientific advancement, etc, etc.

I don't want to force Christianity on the Middle East. But I do think that until such a time as Saudi Arabia allows Christians to pray openly, their wretched government should be banned from funding the construction of mosques in the West, such as the Islamic Cultural Centre in Dublin which was built with Saudi money. Immigration from Islamic countries should be strictly limited, and those who come here should be made to understand that Sharia Law is not an option, not now, and not ever. The disgusting face veil should be banned, and preachers who advocate violence should be encouraged, to put it mildly, to find new employment elsewhere.

At the same time, the West should gradually withdraw all soldiers from Muslim land. There should be an informal compromise. The West and the Islamic world should co-exist peacefully, with us respecting them, and them knowing that their religion will not be allowed to conquer the West in the way it conquered North Africa and the Middle East.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 09/01/2011 10:15:05    842304

Greengrass

I'd have to agree with much of what you've said re: columnists in Ireland. I'd read Frank McNally when I get the chance and thats about it, only because I find him entertaining.

Seamus89- A couple of points and one simple question.

Remember it wasn't so long ago the homosexual acts were illegal in this country. We are not a fully secular state as education is still run by the Catholic church. Much of our legislation is based on Catholic teachings. So we might be better off than some Islamic states but we are far from a shining example of a society, nor is there such an example in the western world imo.

When you talk about the aggresive expansion of Islam, keep in mind the attempted expansion of Western values, from the Crusades and European colonialism in America and Africa to the USA's intervention in the Middle East.

When migrants come from another religion or culture do they not have a right to celebrate or worship? Should the Irish clubs in Birmingham and London have been closed down because of the IRA campaign in Britain?

Lastly, Do you know anyone who has lived in an Arab state (let's forget about Saudi Arabia, it's disgraceful treatment of it's citizens, especially women has got nothing to do with Islam and it is allowed to continue without pressure because of its alliance with the USA)?

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 09/01/2011 12:50:04    842345

As for secularism...you seem to be for an atheist state. Much of our legislation is based on Catholic teaching and the Bible. So is much of the legislation in Britain, Germany, Italy, etc, etc. Our holidays, Christmas, Easter and St. Patrick's Day are based around Christianity. The Catholic Church does not RUN our education system, but under the Constitution, parents have the right to send their children to Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, secular or any other type of school, and given that their taxes pay for those schools, I agree with that right.

If you want a good secular state roundball, you might check out the Soviet Union, oh wait, it collapsed in heap, as will all states that spit on their country's Christian heritage and try to destroy it. Much of Western Europe will go the same way, I think, and the secular liberals will find less forgiving overlords in the Islamic clerics.

I have to answer that point about the Crusades first. The Crusades were waged to recover the Holy Land!!!!!!!!!!!!! That can't be stressed enough. Recover, not conquer. The Muslims attacked the Holy Land, conquered it, and then the Pope of the day gathered the kings of Europe and called for a war to recover the lost territory. The 'Christian aggression' during the Crusades is one of the worst and most damaging myths ever created. Islam was the aggressor then, as it is now.

Of course they should have the right to worship. I didn't say mosques should be closed down. We have freedom of religion in the West, one of the many things that makes us superior to the Islamic regimes is how we treat minority views and beliefs. What I said is that we should ban the face veil (for the sake of the women who have to wear it) and we should ban funding of mosques when it comes from countries that persecute Christians. Like Saudi Arabia.

I've spoken to people who've lived in Arab states, can't say I've had an immediate family member or close friend who's lived over there. Also, you shouldn't blame America for Saudi Arabian barbarism.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 09/01/2011 13:20:06    842359

Seamus, thanks for validating my point about resistance to Sharia Law in Turkey. No thanks for not referring to my point about christian Belgiums refusal to properly acknowledge the genocide perpetrated by King Leopold in The Congo. Another recommended book for you is King Leopolds Ghost. Does Belgiums denial of what was done in The Congo make christianity as it is practised n Belgium "bad" ? Derryman has very eloquently posed several questions for you. It would be nice if you answered them. So too has roundball. Have you actually lived in a state where Islam is the religion of the majority or do you glean all of your information about life in an Islamic state from the media ?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6178 - 09/01/2011 13:55:47    842371

To be perfectly honest this particular article I would describe as lazy Journalism. Pick a subject that is already suffering from bad press and make a lot of (not necessarily true) popular generalisms and point the finger at a third party that has absolutely nothing to do with the article bind it all together with a very sound vocabulary and send it of for printing. I do wonder is there an editing process at this paper that actually looks at the quality of content or do they only edit spelling and grammar.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 09/01/2011 16:36:59    842454

Seamus, thanks for validating my point about resistance to Sharia Law in Turkey. No thanks for not referring to my point about christian Belgiums refusal to properly acknowledge the genocide perpetrated by King Leopold in The Congo. Another recommended book for you is King Leopolds Ghost. Does Belgiums denial of what was done in The Congo make christianity as it is practised n Belgium "bad" ? Derryman has very eloquently posed several questions for you. It would be nice if you answered them. So too has roundball. Have you actually lived in a state where Islam is the religion of the majority or do you glean all of your information about life in an Islamic state from the media?

Greengrass, I've spent quite some time answering the questions posed by all three of you now. I don't have all day so don't get all stroppy that I failed to address one aspect of a reasonably long post.

I am not very well informed about the situation in the Congo. Obviously, I know about the brutal methods of King Leopold. But how has Belgium not acknowledged this? Have they never officially apologised, or what? Turkey says the Armenian Genocide didn't take place, I can't imagine the Belgians saying something that ridiculous.

I have addressed Derryman's points already, it's up to him to say if he needs further clarification.

No, obviously I haven't lived in an Islamic country, praise be Allah. But I don't have to live in one of their countries to see how inferior their civilisation is. Just comparing the West to the Middle East (apart from Israel) tells me all I need to know. They are backward economically, politically and socially.

Finally, please give me the name of one Islamic country that is a liberal democracy. Just one.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 09/01/2011 16:39:27    842457

if you only applied the same logic derryman closer to home you would be a better person for it i.e. always blame someone else

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 09/01/2011 16:45:40    842469

liathroidboy
County: Mayo
if you only applied the same logic derryman closer to home you would be a better person for it i.e. always blame someone else

I generally make a point of not answering your drivel but on this occasion you have shown clearly that you either do not read my posts or are to immature to understand them.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 09/01/2011 16:53:19    842475

I don't really like it when it looks like one poster is being ganged-up on but seeing as this is turning into an 'Ask Seamus' thread, I've a few questions of my own:

- What is the 'Christian culture of the west' exactly? And how has this contributed to standard of living and (in particular) scientific advancement? Re the former: the Bible (treat your neighbour as yourself... rich man/eye of a needle etc) is a handbook for socialism as much as anything. As for the latter - from Galileo all the way through to 'Intelligent Design', I'd say science and Christianity have had a difficult relationship to say the least.
- What had the absence of religion to do with the collapse of the USSR? Would Communism have worked if the Politburo had George W. Bush-style prayer sessions? (If you're struggling for an example of a secular country that's doing okay for itself, there's a little place south east of here called 'France' which, last I hear, hadn't been smited by the Almighty, their godlessness notwithstanding.)
- How to do you reconcile your support of religious freedom (because it makes 'us' superior to 'them') with your immediate proposals of controlling religious funding, restricting immigration on religious grounds etc (which, er, would make 'us' just as bad as 'them').

whereangelsplay (Cork) - Posts: 240 - 09/01/2011 16:59:53    842479

Seamus

I know the Catholic Church don't run education in the state but if you live in rural Ireland you have little choice but to send your child to a National School where the local parish priest will more than likely be on the board of management. We should actually be thankful to the Catholic Church for this to some extent.

I am not an atheist, I would consider myself a liberal Christian and while I acknowledge that Catholicism is the major religion in the state and our public holidays should remain based around their celebrations I would like some degree of state secularism without being too sensitive.

You may have a valid point about the crusades, but many, many people have been killed and enslaved all over the world in the name of Christianity and "western values", do not forget this or be fooled in to believing that Europeans and Americans are more righteous. While their is much about Islamic culture that would make me uncomfortable, there is much about it that I admire also.

I have immediate family that lived and worked in the UAE and worked with people from all across the Arab region. They found them to be by and large spiritual, peaceful and welcoming. The UAE pride themselves on trying to strike a balance between Islam and secularism, unlike their Saudi neighbours. Saudi Arabia have not come under anything near the amount of pressure as other oppressive regimes because they toe the line on matters of foreign policy, particularly when it comes to the US position in the region. Why do the self proclaimed leaders of the free world maintain diplomatic relations with a country that doesn't let women drive cars?

You may know that the Palestinians in particular see themselves as having much in common with the Irish. Make of that what you will but there is less separating our own blood history from what has happened and continues to happen across the globe.

Lastly, religion is often used to mask other more sinister interests and objectives. As a poster of reasonable intelligence I'm sure you know this. Sometimes you need to look beyond the headlines thrown up by opinion writers like Meyers and ask "Why?".

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 09/01/2011 18:42:10    842568

Lets put it like this folks, in my college there is an Islamic week, where Islam themed events are held and the religion is promoted to others. Now, supposed I wanted to set up a Christianity week, there would be uproar from the Muslim student population, AND left wing Irish students bleating about tolerance and secularism. But if I dared complain about Islam week, or said it offended me, I'd be vilified in certain circles, and called all the names under the sun, xenophobe, racist, etc. You see, its perfectly fine for Muslims in Ireland and the UK to bash Christianity, but if the tables are turned, we get burning effigies, placards with slogans on them, angry mobs etc. Where is the respect from the other side people?

Sergeant_Slash (Cavan) - Posts: 2182 - 09/01/2011 19:11:38    842593

Ok, I see your points. I support a REASONABLE amount of secularism, as do the vast majority of Catholics. For me, that means a good mix of schools, Catholic schools, Protestant schools, secular schools, etc. I have zero time for the 'Happy Holidays' brigade, or those who get offended by the Angelus being on, or that nonsense. The country is what it is, and some eejits looking to be offended shouldn't be listened to.

I'm not saying Christianity hasn't been used to justify bad things, but there is a two main differences between that and Islamic violence. Firstly, there is an entire violent worldwide campaign in the name of Islam at present, there is no such Christian claim. Secondly, it's a lot harder to use the Bible to justify violence than it is to use the Koran. The Islamic prophet was a warlord himself, after all. Jesus was not.

I have much more affinity for the people of Israel I'm afraid. They're a race that has been despised all over the world for thousands of years, and who have fought to maintain their identity and existence. All they have is a small sliver of land in Israel, and they've sacrificed so much to defend themselves since their countries foundation in 1948. I admire them a great deal.

What sinister objectives does Kevin Myers have? He merely wants to preserve the status quo of Ireland when it comes to our culture.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 09/01/2011 19:31:25    842621

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 601

I'm not saying for a moment that anyone has a monopoly on virtue. What I am saying is that the Islamic culture of the Middle East is inferior to Christian culture of the West (sadly diminishing now, I'm afraid). The evidence is very clear in terms of political freedom, religious freedom, standard of living, levels of education, scientific advancement, etc, etc.
they are practically the same in their fundamentalist form, except for being about 1000 years out of sync. Christianity only changed when the people it controlled refused to accept it, the same will happen with islam, but by then some new cult will evolve to cater for people that need that sort of belief.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 09/01/2011 19:57:23    842667

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 601


What sinister objectives does Kevin Myers have? He merely wants to preserve the status quo of Ireland when it comes to our culture.

Ah the good old status quo,, isn't that what john charles McQuaide wanted , in fact isn't that what all the people in charge want.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 09/01/2011 20:00:56    842671