Capital punishment is not a deterrent. Are we to descend to the criminals level to deal with them?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13795 - 28/07/2010 13:43:06    726963

"slasher.thats what i been trying to say , i think the feelings of the criminials are taking into consideration more than the victims.
it is clear in what people are saying on here "

How? In what way?

whereangelsplay (Cork) - Posts: 240 - 28/07/2010 13:43:33    726967

Ok mods I'll remove the bit about media manipulation, other than that there's nothing libelous or legally contentious in what I'm saying.

No one on the left side of things is claiming we should ever release criminals for the sake of their rights, in fact in a proper rehabilitation process Murphy (remember him from the title)'d still have another few years of treatment, if he's diagnosed, as is likely, with having a psychopathic personality, he may never be released.

Whenever there's a situation where details of shocking crimes in the media, mass hysteria ensues and people frankly lose the run of themselves to social panic, and you hear things like bring back hanging - and don't forget this was the public's reaction in England during the trials of the Guildford 4. Obviously we have the benefit of hindsight now, but back then in England people would have gladly seen them swing... All I'm saying here, is be rational, don't respond with nonsense like "tell that to his victims, or if dat was moy kidz, i'd trottle 'im" because that's irrational....

An ultra hard-line approach won't work, it's not humane, it'll create a state of fear and tension and trust me you'd rather live in our current environment than some Orwellian utopia where people are terrified to put a foot wrong…

Pedrito (Dublin) - Posts: 1111 - 28/07/2010 14:10:13    727042

Pedrito,

My post, a reply to Hurlingspuds and in the same vein as his was also refused by the administrators. It did not contain anything worse than what was allowed in his. I find this happening more and more, one poster getting his printed and a similar post of mine not being printed. I think that it is highly unfair and that there is a bias in there somewhere by the admin. I would be doing myself an injustice to continue posting on here because of this, so i am getting out !!

Good luck all !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 28/07/2010 14:45:13    727110

seanie_boy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 326

726710 The highest murder rates are not USA.

where are they ?

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 28/07/2010 14:47:07    727113

This murphy gent has not been convicted or even charged with murder

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 28/07/2010 14:48:30    727117

Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 5350

727110 Pedrito,

My post, a reply to Hurlingspuds and in the same vein as his was also refused by the administrators. It did not contain anything worse than what was allowed in his. I find this happening more and more, one poster getting his printed and a similar post of mine not being printed. I think that it is highly unfair and that there is a bias in there somewhere by the admin. I would be doing myself an injustice to continue posting on here because of this, so i am getting out !!

Good luck all !!

I hope you just mean for this thread slasher!?!?

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12291 - 28/07/2010 14:59:38    727139

cavan slasher is hanging up his keyboard??

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 28/07/2010 15:00:11    727144

Honduras,S.Africa,Russia.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 28/07/2010 18:49:05    727521

Breffni39
County: Cavan
Posts: 3286

727139 Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 5350

My post, a reply to Hurlingspuds and in the same vein as his was also refused by the administrators. It did not contain anything worse than what was allowed in his. I find this happening more and more, one poster getting his printed and a similar post of mine not being printed. I think that it is highly unfair and that there is a bias in there somewhere by the admin. I would be doing myself an injustice to continue posting on here because of this, so i am getting out !!

Good luck all !!

Hopefully just this thread mate?

Rhodejim (Offaly) - Posts: 2888 - 28/07/2010 18:58:56    727533

Honestly some of the things you read on these threads!

Apparently the Church is responsible for all sex crimes carried out, oh and no one has to take personal responsibility for their own actions, just blame society!

What planet do you inhabit Patrique?

I realize sometimes you deliberately seek attention by posting tripe, but this is surely going too far!

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 28/07/2010 20:47:16    727661

Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 5350

SLASHER!!! Dont you dare leave me on my own to fight the corner for the ones who want justice in our society! I dont want to be trapped among this swarm of lefties! Dont let them silence you, thats exactly what they want!

Scruffy2Donut (Cavan) - Posts: 1112 - 28/07/2010 21:22:37    727701

So socio-economic differences are an excuse to murder? If you grow up in these places dont you have an idea of what is right and wrong in the moral sense?

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 28/07/2010 21:29:27    727712

patrique
County: Antrim
Posts: 9018


No, the VICTIMS should blame the society, whether that be the Government, or fascists such as your good self.


Well Im not going to engage in that sort of slanderous behaviour, although I think thats a typical response from lefties when someone dis-agrees with your point of view, label everyone a fascist. I would always welcome debate about these important issues, but name calling doesnt help the situation. Anyway, back to your comment. If Seamus (a carpentar on 40,000 a year) attacks Mary (a solicitor on 200,000 a year) at half 12 at night outside a pub on a side street, then you reckon Seamus is not to blame, and Mary should blame Fianna Fail or an Irish fascist group? Please explain.

Scruffy2Donut (Cavan) - Posts: 1112 - 28/07/2010 21:35:14    727719

Murphy should be locked up for life and it should mean life.He refused treatment ,so he should be refused liberty.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 28/07/2010 21:37:36    727724

murphy should receive a visit from the unknowns ;] .......... and followed by a O.B.E.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 28/07/2010 21:42:41    727735

Scruffy2donut

I am a lefty and would not label any man a fascist based on what I have read on this thread - anyone who does so is out of line.

I think Hugo Chavez would deal with this issue somewhat differently - being a socialist does not mean turning a blind eye to crime.

I grew up in a working class housing estate and was brought up to treat people with respect, I think the idea that all criminals are so because of social

disadvantage extremely insulting.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 28/07/2010 21:47:10    727747

Quite a few thoughts and here is mine. Long, but hopefully worth a read


On the morning of 13 August 1964, at Strangeways and Walton prisons respectively, the gallows concluded their role as the final dispensers of justice in the United Kingdom. Even as the bodies of Peter Allen and Gwynne Evans hung lifelessly, the wheels where in motion to ensure that such events would be condemned to history. Less than one year later, parliament voted to abolish the death penalty for all offences with the exception of treason, piracy with violence and arson in a Royal Dockyard, with a proviso that the situation could be revisited in five years. On 18 December 1969, the House of Lords finally passed the Murder Act. The removal of treason and piracy as capital offences in the Criminal Justice Bill 1998 to all intent and purpose abolished the death penalty in the United Kingdom.

Slowly but surely in the preceding two hundred years, attempts at reform of the justice systems use of capital punishment had been ongoing. The sentence of capital punishment applied during this period known as the "Bloody Code" for numerous offences ranging from stealing and forgery at the bottom end of the scale to murder and treason at the high end. There are a number of theories as to why capital punishment was so frequent during this period, not least that the laws of the land were made by the wealthy for the wealthy. In essence then, crimes were likely to be committed by the poor in the form of stealing and such and the use of capital punishment was seen as a deterrent. What happened in the years after this to assuage the criminal justice system?

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 28/07/2010 21:58:12    727766

The age old right to trial by jury was one of the major influences in helping remove a number of offences from the death penalty list. The reason for this is that, mindful of the fact that a conviction was likely to lead to the death penalty, juries were refusing to convict as evidence was generally quite flimsy and indeed most of the crimes were quite trivial. In the intervening years up to its virtual abolition, the types of offences that had capital punishment as the sentence rapidly decreased, with only the most serious of offences, and most specifically murder were considered. In recent times, as a result of an increase in violent crime and murder in the United Kingdom there have been calls for a return to the use of capital punishment. In 2007, Ipsos conducted an international poll on the death penalty. Results of the poll indicated that half of the people interviewed in the United Kingdom were in favour of the reintroduction of the death penalty for a convicted murderer. If this is representative of the population as a whole should the Government and criminal justice system as a whole consider the return of capital punishment?

There are a number of considerations that must be taken into account when considering this question. Consideration must be given to such issues as, is it morally correct for a state to decide whether a citizen of the state lives or dies? Does the punishment fit the crime and will it deter people from committing murder? The greatest consideration however is the fact that when the sentence is carried out it is irreversible. If it is accepted that the Government of the United Kingdom is morally guided by the teachings of Christianity being a predominantly Christian society, then the sixth commandment, thou shall not commit murder should preclude any form of capital punishment. However, in the full context of this command, the scriptures read "Whoever strikes a man a mortal blow must be put to death. He, however, who did not hunt a man down, but caused his death by an act of God, may flee to a place which I will set apart for this purpose. But when a man kills another after malicious scheming to do so, you must take him from even my altar and put him to death" (Exodus 21:12-14) This in effect provides moral justification to the death penalty where there has been premeditated murder. However, it may be considered that society has changed significantly in the intervening two thousand years and that society as a whole has ceased to take the teachings of scripture in a literal sense. It could also be argued that Government's at present do not cite moral responsibility as a reason to use the death penalty but relate it as a punitive, retributive and deterrent measure. Thus the debate veers towards the collective impact that the death penalty has on society, its victims, and the victims of crime.

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 28/07/2010 21:59:19    727769

The use of the death penalty as a means of retribution is a dangerous precedent to set but may well be a pointless act. Does the taking of a life in reparation for another really provide the justice that victims would want? Surely the fact of the matter is that the original victim is dead and that very little solace will be encountered by their family by killing someone else. " I wouldn't want to see Harry Edward Brooks' family subjected to the same heartbreak that our family endured. No family deserves such punishment, and I want no part of it". These are the words of Pat McCoy after his sister Kathy had been brutally murdered in 1974 by a total stranger.(http://www.mvfr.org/?page_id=6)
Although there are numerous families of murder victims that would support the death penalty, the bottom line is, other than revenge what does it achieve but more misery and suffering for another family. The criminal justice system cannot take a narrow retrograde view of its aims in terms of punishment. Punishment is only a facet of the system, rehabilitation is another. Who can decide whether someone can be rehabilitated or not, who has the absolute power, conviction and knowledge to make such a judgement? Deterrence is another major facet of the criminal justice systems aims, yet evidence gathered to date would seem to appear to vindicate an anti capital punishment stance. Figures quoted by Amnesty International comparing death penalty states against non death penalty states in the United States show consistently, year on year from 1990 until 2007 that the murder rate is consistently lower in non death penalty states.(Amnesty International USA Death and Deterrence). However, Cassell(2004) would argue that although the death penalty will not prevent every murder, it will prevent some. Is this sufficient to justify taking someone's life?

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 28/07/2010 22:00:12    727773