If this is the benchmark, is what Clough achieved with Forest more impressive?

I'd have to say yes. Taking a provincial team like Nottingham Forest from Division 2 to winning Division 1 with a couple of years and winning back to back European cups is a feat I don't think will ever be matched.
People say Clough's biggest regret was that he never managed England. By his own admission, his biggest regret was that he never managed United.

NavyNBlue (Dublin) - Posts: 1357 - 09/04/2010 21:09:11    613294

slayer
County: Limerick
Posts: 1353


. Ferguson has achieved the longevity in his job, success in different countries



Now longevity. Does this work? He has been manager of United for 24 years and won 2 CLs. In that time real Madrid have had about 79 managers and won.......3 champions leagues.

The whole point OI always make about Fergie is his record in Europe, as FERGIE HIMSELF AGREES, is dreadful. And it is Europe that counts. Jose was sacked because all he did was win leagues, so was capello, Mancini and a host of others.

Benitez,for all his faults, has an excellent record in Europe, in less time, with less resources. And Benitez to his credit cannot even begin to understand why ANYONE would want to win the league. Comes from not being English and an islander duped by SKY that the world ends at Dover.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 09/04/2010 21:29:37    613313

32_4_1 wrote

slayer in this day and age winning the champions league with porto is far superior to anything ferguson has done. its a lot harder for the smaller teams to come through, as the bigger teams are richer and only get richer, and the gap to the chasing pack widens. it wasnt quite the same years ago. anyway porto were in trouble when mourinho took them over.

But that's a matter of opinion. I think winning the 1983 Cup winners cup with Aberdeen was bigger than Porto's 2004 success. Porto were European Champions in 1988. They had a history of competing in Europe. Credit to Mourinho, his record at Porto was phenomenal, domestic titles, UEFA & Champions League glory. I think the Aberdeen 1983 success was bigger - just my opinion. Aberdeen broke the Celtic/Rangers axis in Scotland and were able to beat Bayern & Real.

ferguson only won the premiership in mouribhos final year in england due to all the injurys. his whole back 4 was out at one stage, the area of the pitch where the foundation for any team is laid

Do you remember United's games away to Wolfsburg and Fulham this season? Back 3 of Carrick, Evra & Fletcher. No Ferdinand, Vidic, Neville, Rafa, etc etc. So we lost a back four as well. If Chelsea win the title this season will I be blaming injuries? Nope, whoever wins it good luck to them. The big 4 in the Prem have to always think of worst casescenario so losing any line of your field should be something they contemplate.

I agree that a back 4 wins you titles, if our injury crisis costs us this year's title, good luck to Arsenal or Chelsea if they win it. Whoever has the most points at the end is what counts - anything in between is circumstantial.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 10/04/2010 14:03:35    613489

Patrique wrote:

Benitez,for all his faults, has an excellent record in Europe, in less time, with less resources. And Benitez to his credit cannot even begin to understand why ANYONE would want to win the league. Comes from not being English and an islander duped by SKY that the world ends at Dover.

For some reason as I was reading your post, the image of Forrest Gump sitting on that park bench talking to anyone who sat down, came into my mind.

Again, a total lack of any research. Do you remember Shankly saying 'cups are nice but the league is our bread and butter'. Now qualification for the champions league had made it less of a blow to not win the title, but are you really telling me that ANY Liverpool fan does not want to see Liverpool win the Premiership. Now if the fans want Liverpool to win it, why does Benitez not want to win it?

Benitez & Liverpool did very well to win the Champions League in 2005 made all the more sweet by doing it with limited players like Djimi Traore. Aside from that, Benitez has landed the 2006 FA Cup. Now for a club like Liverpool with a history of success is that enough? And there you are saying Benitez does not want to win the title? I imagine it is the one trophy Liverpool are crying out to win. Your theories about SKY and Dover are fine, but more suited to a reporter trying to prove aliens exist than Premiership/European football.

Alex Ferguson by his own admission has said he would have liked to win more European trophies. Yes, this is a stain on his record but repeated success in any of the competitions United enter has to be admired. This season United have failed to win the Champions League, the Premier title might be gone (the one you reckon Benitez does not want to win) but when push came to shove, United were able to see off City in the League Cup. You have dismissed it as being 'only' the league cup, but to me any trophy you win, savour it. After all City would have loved to have bridged that 34 year gap by winning the League Cup.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 10/04/2010 14:24:31    613512

I think people are missing the thing that makes ferguson unique, the ability to change with the times and stay at the top. This is the ultimate achievement for any manager. Comparing single trophies here and there can be slightly futile as good teams can be inherited or you can just get lucky, like mourinho was at porto (They may have been an average sized club but look at the players he had at his disposal). Managers can also go on a good run but fail to sustain it season after season, like wenger or rijkaard. That is what makes ferguson so revered and feared, he changed what people believed could be done. People talk about clough, and what he did was pretty amazing, but we forget that he then got forrest relegated and went to leeds and flopped. This for me illustrates his weakness; inability to change with the game. Clough was a man for the times he was in, but his style didnt always work

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 12/04/2010 21:34:40    615589

10/04/2010 14:24:31
slayer
County: Limerick
Posts: 1370


Again, a total lack of any research. Do you remember Shankly saying 'cups are nice but the league is our bread and butter'


SHANKLEY?

I remember Herbert Chapman saying it after winning three in a row with two different clubs, but there was no EUROPE in those days.

The league is the big one still, everyone knows that, which is why it is called the Champions LEAGUE.

The qualifying competition to get into that LEAGUE are minor events.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 12/04/2010 22:00:53    615639

Patrique

- set out any standard, any criteria for what makes a top manager and Alex Ferguson will be there at the top of the table with all the rest of the managerial greats. Sven Goran Eriksson and a few more of your tabloid managers will not.

It really is worrying to see a man of your vintage being so bitter and petty. 32_4_1 is the same, but I put it down to his youthful exuberance. you can't use that excuse, unfortunately.

You don't like Ferguson and his current club. Get over it.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12291 - 13/04/2010 09:01:17    615672

Breffni39 wrote:

- set out any standard, any criteria for what makes a top manager and Alex Ferguson will be there at the top of the table with all the rest of the managerial greats. Sven Goran Eriksson and a few more of your tabloid managers will not.

Well said. Patrique reminds me of a drunk in a bar who has been told to leave. It just seems like he wants to pick a fight with anyone who looks at him.

Patrique your ramblings are often incoherent, but it has to be said, you are far more obsessed with Manchester United than Breffni39, TheMaster or myself and all three of us are United fans!!

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 13/04/2010 11:11:55    615797

TheMaster
County: Mayo

I think people are missing the thing that makes ferguson unique, the ability to change with the times and stay at the top. This is the ultimate achievement for any manager. Comparing single trophies here and there can be slightly futile as good teams can be inherited or you can just get lucky, like mourinho was at porto (They may have been an average sized club but look at the players he had at his disposal). Managers can also go on a good run but fail to sustain it season after season, like wenger or rijkaard. That is what makes ferguson so revered and feared, he changed what people believed could be done. People talk about clough, and what he did was pretty amazing, but we forget that he then got forrest relegated and went to leeds and flopped. This for me illustrates his weakness; inability to change with the game. Clough was a man for the times he was in, but his style didnt always work

Good point. But to be fair to Clough he was manager of Forest when Liverpool were in their prime. He managed to get both Derby and Forest promoted from division 2 to league title glory, a European cup semi final for Derby, back to back European Cups with Forest along with a host of League Cups (when the league cup actually meant something) in the space of 12 years. That is a remarkable achievement considering Forest and Derby were hardly ever big teams the way United were before Fergie arrived. Unfortunately for Clough his drinking problems coincided with his lack of success not to mention his second fall out with Peter Taylor. I wouldn't give the Leeds thing too much weight. How or why he went there, I'll never know. I don't think it was a sign of weakness as much as it was the players just not wanting to play for him since Clough was so outspoken in his criticsm of them.

NavyNBlue (Dublin) - Posts: 1357 - 13/04/2010 16:38:51    616201