re: dhorse

Yeah thinks are much better over there.... Job wise!!!

Place with more sun and less whinging.... yes you've guessed it wexford!!! Do i need a passport?

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 25/03/2010 20:29:39    599247

black&white
County: Sligo
Posts: 754

598898 roundball

Anytime there is any effort to reform the HSE what is the primary stumbling block? The unions.

As stated, the combination of the Health Boards in the HSE was the perfect opportunity to reform the sector, and bring about real improvements. What happened? IMPACT threatened to close down hospitals with strike, Bertie caved in (what's new there?) and we were left with the same crappy system under a new name.

I know. It is a problem. There are too many people working in that organisation in certain sectors. But those people are depending on that job for a livelihood so they have to be offered a way out, retraining, redeployment, severence package, whatever. In this case the unions should not stand in the way of reform.

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 25/03/2010 20:33:32    599256

H & C,

I would support the low paid workers no matter which sector they worked in. This crowd is too busy looking after the people who caused the problems to care for the low paid. The low paid are paying for N.A.M.A. As i stated before, the Unions are looking after their own interests. You might as well be p@@@ing against the wind complaining about problems in the Public Sector as there are too many layers of middle-management to get past. I also agree that many areas need fixing but starting with cuts for the lower paid staff, who are actually working, is not the way and as can be seen they are fed up with it. Leaving the two Marys intact is proof of the Govt's ineptness!!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 25/03/2010 20:36:33    599260

yew_tree:

You joking!!!! what about "benchmarking" and the 20 billion mcgreevy et al. pumped into the public sector over 10 years mainly just hiring more people and not spending it on the resources to do work effectively!!
Granted there were murmuning of disapproval but in fairness the country was ok about as it could be supported..... can someone please propose a way to cut the deficet without cutting public sector wages?? Answers on a postcard please to Mr. cowen the dail, and in saying that the current government will not be getting my support in the next election cuts or no cuts.

The union dosen't call a strike they propose it and it's voted on most of the time.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 25/03/2010 20:39:39    599264

"The Public Sector Unions have devised a very effective way of protest"

Exactly a protest to do a good degree of damage to the public..... Government admin departments are part of these union protests right i don't see any protests in the revenue department and departments effecting directly how the government functions... effect the public is they way to protest apparantly!

Your in the union right what solutions have put on the table?? Or are we allowed that sort of info?

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 25/03/2010 20:45:59    599272

"You might as well be p@@@ing against the wind complaining about problems in the Public Sector as there are too many layers of middle-management to get past."

So is this not grounds for protest to the unions but this is not part of their agenda at all at all these same unions who have representative on the board of directors of the central bank who are responsible for regulation of financial control. The unions are worse than the government Big jim larkin would be turning in his grave! They promise better wages and everyone rows in behind. There a plan there than we should be following "Australian public service reform"

I've looked threw for reports from unions on how they have driven public sector reform yet to find one except for a couple of 2 line bullet points on their websites to proove this reform. Public service reform in union policies holds about as much water as a ducks back!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 25/03/2010 20:59:32    599291

There will be protests in these departments too. Staggered protests will hit all areas in time if my info is right !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 25/03/2010 21:00:17    599292

So what the mentality behind that to p$$$ off the public first and then directly effect the government..... rediculas way of approaching.

Should they attack the people they have the problem with first just shows the mentality behind it all!!! and it they expect the people directly effected by their initial protest to row in behind them.... you say put ourselves in their shoes, wonder if there were many public servants in the queues for passports!!!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 25/03/2010 21:13:49    599311

My son was in the queue on Tue and didn't get his passport !! I never said i agreed with the protests just that it is effective and will spread because workers won't take the double standards anymore. Not everyone had their pay cut !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 25/03/2010 21:28:54    599329

So your arguement is that the lower paid public sector workers are hit the worst right.

So what do you make of the industrial action really effecting the ordinary working class and unemployed more that the people ye have the problem with i.e the bankers and government. I just think this action is hypocritical and unessary as they real problems within the public service are not in anyway being addressed what so ever. And to say that it "p***ing against the wind" to sort these is wrong I havn't even see the word reform in the sense that it's necessary even mentioned by the unions!!! They seem hell bent on preventing reform happening and yet want to go an as if we'er still living in boom times. Emmigration figures have hit the 100'000's now yet the numbers employed in the public service do not reflect this less public = less employee's right and the natural decreasing number due to recruitment freeze is not enough to reflect this.

Also you still fail to reflect my arguement of public service wages being more than other countries without the the cost of living being that different i.e the uk for one!!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 25/03/2010 21:44:08    599355

The recruitment freeze is indeed having a huge effect, thousands have left already and this will continue well into 2011. Management is not doing their work so it is left to the ordinary souls.
The cost of living is much higher than in England and other countries but that is neither her nor there as worker's mortgages, loans, education fees etc were taken out prior to the wage cuts and is seriously harming workers now and before you go on about those who have lost their jobs and still have similar expenses, i sympathise with them as i have always done. Two wrongs do not make a right !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 25/03/2010 21:53:38    599374

Public sector? The GAA, flourishing, making loads of money, carefully redistributing it.

Private sector? Portsmouth, Liverpool, west ham and the 53 clubs in administration since the premiership.

In short failure. Making money for a few at the top,and forget about the rest...

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 25/03/2010 21:53:54    599375

25/03/2010 19:19:57
dhorse
County: Laois
Posts: 5268

599103 ruanua
County: Donegal
Posts: 3209

599079 25/03/2010 18:58:22
dhorse
County: Laois
Posts: 5256

599062 I dislike both
__________
Is there not not several hundred thousand of them ?

2 sectors, private and public, Suppose there are 2 others also, the Unemployed and the unemployable

And the not officially employed

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 26/03/2010 09:01:26    599419

Hag, your argument basically is this.
Lower paid private sector workers took pay cuts and job losses, therefore, low paid public servants should too,
Its exactly what I was talking about
If John and Jimmy both have a ball. John's ball gets punctured by a mean man in a suit. He feels aggrieved. He then wants jimmy's ball to be punctured too. Even tho Jimmy had nothing to do with John's ball being punctured! Cos if he cant have a ball, why should Jimmy?

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 26/03/2010 09:05:00    599421

"They took ar jebs!!"

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9730 - 26/03/2010 09:23:16    599444

26/03/2010 09:05:00
Liamwalkinstown
County: Dublin
Posts: 2513

599421 Hag, your argument basically is this.
Lower paid private sector workers took pay cuts and job losses, therefore, low paid public servants should too,
Its exactly what I was talking about
If John and Jimmy both have a ball. John's ball gets punctured by a mean man in a suit. He feels aggrieved. He then wants jimmy's ball to be punctured too. Even tho Jimmy had nothing to do with John's ball being punctured! Cos if he cant have a ball, why should Jimmy?
____________________
The mean man might come back some day and buy Johnny and a few more lads a ball
But there will be no point in having a ball if Jimmy and Johnnys Mammy doesnt have a garden
The bank will let Mammy keep the garden if she is seen to be watching her pennies, paying her rent and not letting the rent arrears creep up too much
Mammy is struggling a bit with the rent but might just scrape through if she cuts Jimmys pocket money
Jimmy got an increase in pocket money when Mammy had plenty money for the rent.
Poor ould Jimmy hasn't done a whole pile wrong but its the only way Mammy can save a few quid.

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 26/03/2010 10:59:06    599537

Lower paid private sector workers took pay cuts and job losses, therefore, low paid public servants should too,
Its exactly what I was talking about
If John and Jimmy both have a ball. John's ball gets punctured by a mean man in a suit. He feels aggrieved. He then wants jimmy's ball to be punctured too. Even tho Jimmy had nothing to do with John's ball being punctured! Cos if he cant have a ball, why should Jimmy?

Well Liam thank you for conveying your deep understanding of this issue. What if John and Jimmy's govt completely ****** up the country and there was now no money for balls, or rather less expensive balls would have to be used?

JackoDub (Dublin) - Posts: 458 - 26/03/2010 11:10:14    599554

I don't think it's enough, but i agree that the bulk being let do should be managers......

Ahhh slasher is it 15 to 20% higher and up to 200% higher for top managers.

So should pay cuts be made on an individual basis if that were to happen it would be just as easy to audit the whole system. How do you propose the savings can be made and how dose the unions propose.

So do you agree that the way the protest has been done is wrong!!!

Uk have had bigger cuts than ireland also cuts in the uk which will take them under private sector wages which is not the case in ireland and wasn't even the case prior to "benchmarking" and still definately the case now. You state your personal expirence yet the figures are there to disprove this as a whole by government and other sources!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 26/03/2010 11:18:28    599567

My arguement is many fold, firstly the public service is too costly and needs reform but unions and public servants hold this back.
The first choice would be to drive this reform and cut numbers especially the levels of management but this isn't an optionwith the unions so tackling the wage bill directly is the only viable option at the moment
The economy have crashed private sector wages as a whole has been effected this should be reflected in public sector wages."benchmarking" took place in the boom times to (over reflect) growth and the growth in private sector wages they should now be bench marked down, Saying that public sector wages were always higher than private sector equilivants so that wasn't totally justified either.
Compared to other countries public servants here have vastly higher wages and not just wages pensions too.
So in saying that industrial action is not justified, and the way industrial action is being done is effecting the general public rather than the government directly.
That's some of my arguement.

So yer arguement is public servants aren't bankers so shouldn't have wages cut right.
I distingly remember on an earlier thread that you said you were ok with taking the paid cut as it had to be done and everyone should get on with it, why the change of heart now.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 26/03/2010 11:32:36    599584

Liam I've no job as a result of the recession what had i to do with it causing the recession

Also there are and were union and public sector representatives on the boards of the central bank and the other banks which regulate the financial industry so if your going to generalise so will I public sector employees caused the recession.

Jimmy indirectly did help in burstling it but tells johnny to sod off walks over to the press and gets another ball out and plays with it in his own!! Jimmy is the public sector right.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 26/03/2010 11:40:08    599594