Let me ask a controversial question.

I am not saying i agree, or disagree with this theory. I just want opinions.
The real reason for the ill feeling the private sector has towards the public sector.
When all is said and done, when you take everything away and get to the surface...does it all boil down to one thing.
Jealousy?
Are the private sector jealous of the public sector.
A few years ago no one was giving out about public servants. Cos most people had jobs. And most earned more than the lower paid public servants on the counter in your local passport office/library. Now many people have lost their jobs, had their wages cut etc. Now all of a sudden its Private Sector = Martyrs, Public Seector = Evil. Just cos they have a job and you dont. Is that really what its all about. I lost my job, had my wages cut, so therefore, so should you.....??

So is it all just jealousy?

ps. to all asking normal PS workers on here how they can justify not answering phones on work to rule....are you aware that it was the unions decided that, not the workers! Jimmy didnt go into work and say, right no answering phones today. No Jimmy got an email from Impact/Cpsu/Siptu telling him what to do. And Jimmy better do it...or he will be all but crossing a picket line!

pps.....Every single one of you here saying "ps workers are a disgrace" every last one of you would do the exact same thing if you were in their position. But your not, so its easy for you to castigate. I am sure you would all be heroes "standing up to your union" if you were the same predicatment...wouldnt you!!

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 25/03/2010 15:11:20    598574

I dislike the public sector and what they are doing, but then i'm semi state and i got my payrise!

paddyogall (Mayo) - Posts: 5110 - 25/03/2010 15:18:22    598582

Another thing all the low earners in the public sector deserve to be getting what they are paid because that is all they are qualified for! what do they expect for all of us to pay for they're lack of ambition?

Public sector worker: I left school after the leaving or got a dimploma in Computer science from an IT, i want a job stamp licking etc pay me lots of money
Private sector worker: I have ambition to be more then a stamp licker, i have a Degree and a Masters etc.

paddyogall (Mayo) - Posts: 5110 - 25/03/2010 15:27:40    598612

Liam,

I posted a similar thread previously and i also asked a question that i got no reply to i.e. If you were a Public Sector worker in the Passport Office (or any other P.S. dept.) and felt that you had been unjustly treated how would you take effective protest ? I still got no replies !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 25/03/2010 15:34:08    598621

paddyogall
County: Mayo
Posts: 2370

598612 Another thing all the low earners in the public sector deserve to be getting what they are paid because that is all they are qualified for! what do they expect for all of us to pay for they're lack of ambition?

Public sector worker: I left school after the leaving or got a dimploma in Computer science from an IT, i want a job stamp licking etc pay me lots of money
Private sector worker: I have ambition to be more then a stamp licker, i have a Degree and a Masters etc.

That post is so ignorant its untrue. Some people are so naive, just believe what they want to believe.

If something wags their tail = True

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12291 - 25/03/2010 16:03:01    598685

Liam

I have no hatred for public sector workers, but I do get annoyed with the seeming unwillingness of the public sector to accept the reality of the current economic situation. Public sector workers were quite happy to accept significant benchmarking increases which were driven by the economic strength of the private sector. Now that the economy has weakened the PS cannot expect to be immune.

I also have serious problems with the level of inefficiency that is tolerated (and encouraged by unions) in the public sector. My taxes go to pay for it, so I feel that I have a right to demand efficiency. This is not a new thing, and is something I've been compaining about for nearly 10 years at this stage. A prime example would be Bertie's infamous deal with IMPACT surrounding the formation of the HSE. The whole point of the HSE was that it would drive synergies, and eliminate instances of multiple persons performing the exact same role. It presented the perfect opportunity to streamline the beaurocracy, and free up funding to increase staffing in frontline services, whilst still reducing the overall cost base. But yet all that resulted was an even-more bloated middle management, with no change in the level of service.
This is typical of the waste that has resulted in the need for cuts in the current climate, but the PS workers seem oblivious to the fact.

As for saying that the union is telling the workers what to do.......... who voted in the union representatives? Who gave them a mandate to take action?
I have some sympathy in that I believe that union chiefs are trying to stir up unrest to consolidate their own power, but at the end of the day it's still the union members who voted for action.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 25/03/2010 16:09:23    598702

i voted no to strike and i av no problem admitting that
BUT
democracy ruled and so be it
I am sure as hell not going to cross a picet of my fellow employees Blackandwhite
would you advocate that i should?
Oh and i never ever ever voted for any union official and neither did anyone i know working in a L.A....!

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 25/03/2010 16:26:33    598730

Amen blackandwhite.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9734 - 25/03/2010 16:31:08    598741

black&white
County: Sligo
Posts: 751

598702 Liam

I have no hatred for public sector workers, but I do get annoyed with the seeming unwillingness of the public sector to accept the reality of the current economic situation. Public sector workers were quite happy to accept significant benchmarking increases which were driven by the economic strength of the private sector. Now that the economy has weakened the PS cannot expect to be immune.

This is what angers me more than the freaking pay-cuts. We do not expect to be immune!! We expect to be slight more immune than the higher paid public servants.

I get annoyed by the private sector's unwillingness to understand, and the media's unwillingness to report, the real reason for the industrial action by the CPSU.

I also have serious problems with the level of inefficiency that is tolerated (and encouraged by unions) in the public sector. My taxes go to pay for it, so I feel that I have a right to demand efficiency. This is not a new thing, and is something I've been compaining about for nearly 10 years at this stage. A prime example would be Bertie's infamous deal with IMPACT surrounding the formation of the HSE. The whole point of the HSE was that it would drive synergies, and eliminate instances of multiple persons performing the exact same role. It presented the perfect opportunity to streamline the beaurocracy, and free up funding to increase staffing in frontline services, whilst still reducing the overall cost base. But yet all that resulted was an even-more bloated middle management, with no change in the level of service.
This is typical of the waste that has resulted in the need for cuts in the current climate, but the PS workers seem oblivious to the fact.

I agree too. I pay taxes as well. I also pay bills to private sector companies who drive me mental with their inefficiency.

Why do people think public servants are sub-humans who are incapable of rational thought like all the geniuses in the private sector?

Is every single one of your work colleagues above reproach in regard to the their work ethic or standards?

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12291 - 25/03/2010 16:41:02    598758

Well Liam I see where you stand on this! I'd ask you a few questions though about our (public and private) shared circumstances?

1. Do you agree that on a yearly basis that the public sector should be paid for from the tax receipts paid by the private sector? (together with the income tax and VAT paid by ps workers)
2. How can we continue to borrow €400 million a week to pay for current expenditure?
3. If you're still no to public sector pay cuts, please tell me how we will balance the books. Shall we make everyone redundant? Shall we close two or three hospitals and a university? That is the scale of our financial problems.

I have no moral difficulty crossing a picket line when there is no moral question at issue. My duty is not to my fellow employees, my duty is to my new wife

JackoDub (Dublin) - Posts: 458 - 25/03/2010 17:00:29    598803

Fully respect that Liam. It's one of the reasons I wouldn't join a union, you're bound to the majority decision, and it makes it difficult to make a stand on your own. (
Equally well I can understand that in the PS it's very difficult to avoid joining a union, due to the saturation of union membership in the PS).
But once you've joined the union you should only cross the picket if you believe that the actions being taken are fundamentaly wrong. I've a huge problem with how unions will never tell a worker to cop themselves on (the recent air traffic controllors dispute being a case in point - you're getting a new improved system that will make you're job easier, and you want a pay rise to compensate you for this?)

But still, the majority voted for the actions being taken and previously voted for the leadership, and so the workers as a group have chosen this action, and have to take responsibility for it. I've no problem with any public sector worker, just with what seems to be an extremely selfish attitude. Whether this is the reality with most public sector workers, or just a bad image being projected by the words and actions of union leaders is something I can't say for sure, but judging from the posts on here I'd be inclined to believe the former.

The salary for my grade in my job has fallen by 21% in the last 12 months. I don't particularly like it, but I realise that it's necessary if I'm to keep my job, and for the company to keep operating successfully. My grade has also seem a fall in headcount of approx 65% over the past 12 months, with approx 50% due to lay-offs.

The reality of the situation we are faced with is not good. Private sector taxes are not sufficient to meet the shortfall in the net public sector expense (Public Sector wages, less Public Sector taxes), and there are three ways this can be done. You can raise taxes, cut public sector pay or increase borrowing. Borrowing is at unsustainable levels and so is ruled out.
There have already been some tax increases in the 2009 budget, and from all indiciations there will be more in the 2011 budget. Yet for the spending gap to be bridged, taxes would have to be raised to the levels of the 70s and 80s. That would have the effect of driving significant amounts foreign investment out of the country, and reduce the tax take still further. In short, tax increases can be used to fund some of the shortfall, but are never realistically going to cover the full amount.
All that's left is public sector pay bill, and that's why we saw the cuts in the 2010 budget. It's not pleasant, but it's what's necessary given the situation that we find ourselves in. Personally, I would have preferred to see lesser pay cuts, coupled with reform of the sector, but given the current economic situation I can understand why the government were unwilling to impose restructuring/redundancies at this time.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 25/03/2010 17:19:09    598855

Jesus, will ye stop goin on about "my taxes". Everybody public or private sector pays taxes.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12291 - 25/03/2010 17:19:20    598856

And come to think of it, if you think public servants earn so much, then we obviously pay more taxes than ye.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12291 - 25/03/2010 17:22:55    598863

I agree too. I pay taxes as well. I also pay bills to private sector companies who drive me mental with their inefficiency.

Why do people think public servants are sub-humans who are incapable of rational thought like all the geniuses in the private sector?

Is every single one of your work colleagues above reproach in regard to the their work ethic or standards?

Breff,

Do you pay more taxes than you receive in pay? Your taxes do not cover your wages, and so the private sector pays the difference.
You have a choice about what private companies you give your money to. If they are so inefficient nothing is stopping you moving your custom to one of their competitors. There is no such option when it comes to paying for the private sector.
And I never said anything about the work ethic or otherwise of the workers, my point is about the efficiency of the sector. You have layers upon layers of needless bureaucracy - the vast majority of whom I'm sure are working very hard, but are they doing tasks that are actually needed? The HSE example earlier is the most egregious example of this inefficiency. Inefficiency like this would not be tolerated in the private sector, purely because it costs money that doesn't need to be spent.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 25/03/2010 17:29:10    598878

black&white
County: Sligo
Posts: 752

598702 Liam

I have no hatred for public sector workers, but I do get annoyed with the seeming unwillingness of the public sector to accept the reality of the current economic situation. Public sector workers were quite happy to accept significant benchmarking increases which were driven by the economic strength of the private sector. Now that the economy has weakened the PS cannot expect to be immune.

I also have serious problems with the level of inefficiency that is tolerated (and encouraged by unions) in the public sector. My taxes go to pay for it, so I feel that I have a right to demand efficiency. This is not a new thing, and is something I've been compaining about for nearly 10 years at this stage. A prime example would be Bertie's infamous deal with IMPACT surrounding the formation of the HSE. The whole point of the HSE was that it would drive synergies, and eliminate instances of multiple persons performing the exact same role. It presented the perfect opportunity to streamline the beaurocracy, and free up funding to increase staffing in frontline services, whilst still reducing the overall cost base. But yet all that resulted was an even-more bloated middle management, with no change in the level of service.
This is typical of the waste that has resulted in the need for cuts in the current climate, but the PS workers seem oblivious to the fact.

As for saying that the union is telling the workers what to do.......... who voted in the union representatives? Who gave them a mandate to take action?
I have some sympathy in that I believe that union chiefs are trying to stir up unrest to consolidate their own power, but at the end of the day it's still the union members who voted for action


You're right the HSE is a mess. Everyone suffers. The patient suffers, staff get underpaid (I know HSE workers who frequently have to go chasing their wage packets, HSE Mid-West still uses the flawed PPARS pay system) and the tax payer does not get value for money. This is symptamtic of the problems in the Public sector and they are not caused by staff, they are caused by a lack of political leadership. I mean look at the state the HSE is in and Harney is still Minister!

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 25/03/2010 17:30:39    598881

paddyogall
County: Mayo
Posts: 2370


Private sector worker: I have ambition to be more then a stamp licker, i have a Degree and a Masters etc.


By any chance was it the public sector that thought you on your degree or masters course!?
The whole public sector shouldn't be tarred with the one brush

Con (Louth) - Posts: 511 - 25/03/2010 17:34:36    598889

roundball

Anytime there is any effort to reform the HSE what is the primary stumbling block? The unions.

As stated, the combination of the Health Boards in the HSE was the perfect opportunity to reform the sector, and bring about real improvements. What happened? IMPACT threatened to close down hospitals with strike, Bertie caved in (what's new there?) and we were left with the same crappy system under a new name.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 25/03/2010 17:39:29    598898

Yes Black and White and the construction industry pocketed the difference

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12291 - 25/03/2010 17:41:30    598903

Breff,

Do you pay more taxes than you receive in pay? Your taxes do not cover your wages, and so the private sector pays the difference.
You have a choice about what private companies you give your money to.

I'd change to Sky B&W only according to Patrique, it's responsible for all the ills of the world!! i don't want that on my conscience!

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12291 - 25/03/2010 18:00:57    598946

I'll weight in with my view some people are probably sick of hearing it.

My main problem is not the wages contrary to what some people say, It with the way the public sector is run and operates mainly to blame are the government and unions. The Public sector has changed little in the way it operates it's still full layers of managers and used financial resources and human resources in the wrong way. I think the unions hold back innovation and better ways of doing things their main aim is wages also i don't agree with unions i think there suited in industrial manufacturing type work when working conditions and pay are poor (sweat shops). You can agrue that scandiavian countries are highly unionised and it works but there are differences here tax levels are high to support money spent on the public service (who's wages are still lower i would say to irish public servants) and also unions don't hold back innovation as much.

Now to get back to public servants they oppose the radical reform of the public sector which is needed (new work practises) oppose job cuts needed so the final area is in pay cuts and they oppose that too hence they give no solutions.

Also they complain that they want to be "benchmarked" against private sector of which they were being paid higher at the time yet even that private sector wages have dropped and they refuse to be "benchmarked" down also have a pension and secure job which wasn't taken into account when "benchmarking".

HSE is a sham 1 fact as i've stated before ireland has twice the number of nurses and doctors per head of population yet half the number of hospitals and specialist equipment and bottom of the E.U standard of healthcare. Also unions signed deals with the governments that resources cannot be redeployed to other hospitals hence new hospital wards sitting idle.

Unions are public service reps so then the public service workers are to blame.

To say it's jealousy no, I've contemplated applying for several public sector jobs in my time but in the majority of times doing the same thing the same way for 50 years is soul destroying I'll stick with the private sector even if i don't have security. I only take a job in the public service if it was a job sorting out the public sector.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 25/03/2010 18:06:28    598957