As someone who went to a Catholic grammar school I never found Catholicism rammed down my throat. In fact the only way you would know it was a Catholic school was the fact that the headmaster was a Priest. I can't remember R.E. class but again I don't recall it being particulary over-bearing. The quality of education there is much superior to state schools so I'm very glad I went to a Catholic school. As for Confirmation, Communion etc. I think that is up to the parent. If a parent doesn't want their child to recieve these sacraments then they will not be forced to do so. The non-drinking on Good Friday is a law that has been passed, surely it is up to the Government to change this law if need be. The Catholic Church is against contraception but it is very easily got. My point is the Catholic Church has totally no effect on the everyday person, if you want it to have no influence in your life then it won't. That's the way it should be, it's all about choice. But the way some people go on here you'd think they are frog-marched to mass every day. If you don't believe then so be it but have the decency to respect those that do

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 22/03/2010 14:46:19    595030

Would you not agree then that anybody who uses contraception but considers themselves catholic is a hypocrite?

Dr.Shephard (Leitrim) - Posts: 2187 - 22/03/2010 14:52:23    595035

22/03/2010 14:45:12
paddyogall
County: Mayo
Posts: 2358

595028 nocky
County: Wexford
Posts: 1730

Nocky your one of these new breed of arrogant Athetists like Richard Dawkins, if people want to believe that a nice man lives in the sky and that we're all going to live for ever and ever then let them. We dont have to ram it down there throats that they believe in fairytales.

Quite possibly the first time I've ever thought this, but well said paddy!

For most atheists, atheism is basically a surrogate religion. Except that most atheists seem to believe themselves to be intellectually superior to those who follow one of the traditional religions. I neither agree nor disagree with the beliefs of either, and I respect the right of religious people to their faith. But their seems to be this in-built arrogance in atheists that says "I am right. You must agree with me or else you are an idiot." Atheism is largely based on the argument tha tthere is no proof that a god exists; but equally well there is no proof that one doesn't exist. It's something that is currently beyond our comprehension.

I've stated before that I would see myself as agnostic. There is no way of knowing whether or not there is or isn't a God. There isn't even any moderately convincing evidence to suggest that one viewpoint or the other is correct. Yet atheists will always try to claim intellectual superiority, depite the fact that all they have is a belief based on little more than the followers of religion.
Atheists point to the lack of evidence of a superior being. Religous people will point to the apparitions at Knock, Lourdes and other places. There is so much that cannot be explained, religious people attribute it to the mysteries of god. Atheists claim that the uncertainty amounts to a lack of proof. It's down to what you choose to believe.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 22/03/2010 15:11:16    595061

I'm starting my own religion... I've chosen to worship a 10,000 year old Arrow head stone mason chap.... Who's in…. his name is Frank Evans Cave 1b
He also in his down time (from making arrow heads) enjoyed a bit of cave painting! All in all a nice bloke with only good things to say and sure if he says he was the son of God… then well I believe him without a shadow of a doubt! (Well I'm only basing this on ancient scrolls found in a cave and translated by fanatical followers hundreds upon hundreds of years later) but it's good enough for me..! Sure I know most of the scrolls were so badly damaged that the txt upon them was largely fecked and untranslatable but sure I trust these medieval fanatical cut off from the real world followers to fill in the blanks for me...! Sure it's not as if they'd use it to their advantage or anything.... I especially like the "No Girls" rule.... might aswell keep the other half down! So we can have absolute power!

Well it's no crazier than worshipping a 2000yr old carpenter, whose mother was put up the duffer by a light….

Just send me a $100 cheque made out to Frank Evans and you're first on the list for spleaven… It's kind of like heaven but has speed bumps.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 22/03/2010 15:58:37    595129

Black & White,

Yes, a bit like Youth Defence !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 22/03/2010 16:04:27    595140

black&white there are a few errors and misconceptions in your last post.

Atheism is not "basically a surrogate religion", it is simply a rejection of the belief in a god or gods. There is no moral code associated with atheism, no rituals. You could maybe argue that humanism is a surrogate religion, but not atheism.

Because atheism (and agnosticism) is based on scientific fact and rational thinking rather than ancient superstition religious people often get offended when atheists/agnostics express their beliefs and their reasons for holding them as they will often question the credibility of religious beliefs. Of course I respect the right of religious people to their faith, what I object to is religious people forcing their faith on the rest of us.

On atheism vs. agnosticism, although it is impossible to be certain that god does not exist, I feel it is more likely than not and so consider myself atheist. As an agnostic you are still sitting on that fence.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 22/03/2010 16:11:14    595147

'what I object to is religious people forcing their faith on the rest of us'

Of course that should be the way. However I think it is true to say that Atheists sometimes try to force their lack of belief on others by ridiculing those that do have a certain faith

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 22/03/2010 16:25:54    595166

Catholic schools are state schools PomeroyPlunkett, they are funded by the state. Segregation of children into schools based on the religion of their parents is a terrible practice and contributes to the divide between the communities in the north and elsewhere.

Why do parents need to use religion as a means to teach their children right from wrong? Why not let children grow up, let their minds develop and then if they choose they can be baptised, confirmed, etc. Indoctrinating children is far worse than atheists debating their beliefs with other adults.

Of course the catholic church has an effect on the ordinary person, you are naive in the extreme if you believe it doesn't.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 22/03/2010 16:31:59    595177

22/03/2010 16:25:54
PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 396

595166
'what I object to is religious people forcing their faith on the rest of us'

Of course that should be the way.
___________

Yet you advocate the indocrination of children.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 22/03/2010 16:35:00    595183

'Yet you advocate the indocrination of children.'

I actually find that insulting. I attended a Catholic school, does the one hour of R.E. I recieved a week, which often was simply informing us of other religions, constitute indoctrination in your eyes? You say the Catholic Church has such a bearing on the lives of people, how does it affect your life for example? As has been pointed out it does make you appear rather weak when you are so opposed to the big bad Catholic Church but yet sometimes go to mass. If you're so against the indoctrination maybe you should make a stand, man up and have the courage of your convictions

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 22/03/2010 16:53:24    595223

nocky,

What scientific facts is atheism based on? About as many as religion.
The absence of evidence does not amount to evidence in and of itself.
Test any scientific theory (or any theory for that matter), and the results can be classified, based on available evidence, as proved, disproved, probable, improbable, or inconclusive. In the case of the existence of some form of higher being, there is such a lack of evidence that inconclusive is the only conclusion that can be logically reached. Reaching any other conclusion means that personal beliefs/convictions have been brought into the equation.

Call agnostics fence sitters if you wish, but in my own opinion it's the only result that can come from logical analysis of the evidence that we have and, unlike you, I'm not willing to base my beliefs on inconclusive evidence.

My point about atheism being like a religion is that so many "atheists" are so rabid in defending and promoting their beliefs. The likes of Dawkins are every bit as bad as the bible-bashers of the southern USA. Many atheists seem to have this in-built smugness, where they think they are better and more intelligent that everyone else, just the impression that you give on every thread where religion is discussed.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 22/03/2010 16:56:12    595228

Lads if you want to understand the heavens and the universe.... There's no need for God or joining a cult because you feel alone and terrified of death.

Buy yourself a telescope and a copy of Astronomy for dummies... I did just that about 10 years ago and have never looked back!

The answers to all ur questions is above your head... we are connected to the universe! Every single last atom that makes you the being that you are.. sure we're really only a bunch of aliens ourselves... A leading theory on how water came to be on our planet is through millions upon millions of years getting pounded by comets (Giant dirty snowballs from outer space) due to our planet not having an atmosphere to deflect such enormous snow balls... the Ice contained within these "Dirty snow balls" vapourised on contact with our planets surface and well the melting ice created vapour... fast forward millions of years and this vapour eventually made clouds, these clouds eventually began to rain... creating our oceans! Thus organic life was born that created oxegen which then went onto create our atmosphere (Important for the whole breathing and not getting nuked by solar radiation) Earth would look like Mars if it wasnt for our atmospere... our beatutiful thin blue line, So our water came from comets.. ie SPACE.... and well we ourselves came from the ocean. So well we're aliens.... Implanted here by galatic vapour (Comets are like cosmic seeds)

Its only a matter of time before we find someone else out there... I'd say within 100yrs or so... (But then again I believe in a multi-verse anyway but thats for a different time)

We're already developing a space telescope so powerful that we'll be able to look at earth like bodies light years away and tell if Mr Glognak zzzbluk has a tree in his back garden! It's all a matter of time... everything will eventually fall into place. We need to stop spending all our money on prehistoric religious wars and build ourselves a new form of engine (We need to be able to fly through space faster) in order to visit our new friends, and or flee our planet as may be the case if we keep destroying our atmosphere or growing as a species at the current terrifying rate (Not enough fresh water folks... prepare for some feckin harsh times)

Then the real progress can begin and we can let go of our medieval corrupt beliefs...

Keep looking up folks... because that's our true home! It's all connected... our Galaxy is just one big giant whirlpool! and what does our cosmic life blood on this planet do naturally... the natural force of gravity.... it's all connected. We're all connected...

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 22/03/2010 17:00:17    595236

Ridiculous for anyone to say religion isnt forced down peoples throats in Ireland, religion is forced upon people in every aspect of life is Ireland - helath (no abortion...etc), education (state money for religious schools...etc), politics (the constitution)...

Businesses are forced to close for religious holidays - easter, christmas....

On the point of pubs closing on Good Friday, if catholics dont want to go to a pub fair enough, no one is forcing them to but why should the rest of the people be denied doing so if they so wish because of other peoples religious beliefs?

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4678 - 22/03/2010 17:57:12    595341

jimbodub
County: Dublin
Posts: 4713

595236
Lads if you want to understand the heavens and the universe.... There's no need for God or joining a cult because you feel alone and terrified of death.

Buy yourself a telescope and a copy of Astronomy for dummies... I did just that about 10 years ago and have never looked back!

The answers to all ur questions is above your head... we are connected to the universe! Every single last atom that makes you the being that you are.. sure we're really only a bunch of aliens ourselves... A leading theory on how water came to be on our planet is through millions upon millions of years getting pounded by comets (Giant dirty snowballs from outer space) due to our planet not having an atmosphere to deflect such enormous snow balls... the Ice contained within these "Dirty snow balls" vapourised on contact with our planets surface and well the melting ice created vapour... fast forward millions of years and this vapour eventually made clouds, these clouds eventually began to rain... creating our oceans! Thus organic life was born that created oxegen which then went onto create our atmosphere (Important for the whole breathing and not getting nuked by solar radiation) Earth would look like Mars if it wasnt for our atmospere... our beatutiful thin blue line, So our water came from comets.. ie SPACE.... and well we ourselves came from the ocean. So well we're aliens.... Implanted here by galatic vapour (Comets are like cosmic seeds)

Its only a matter of time before we find someone else out there... I'd say within 100yrs or so... (But then again I believe in a multi-verse anyway but thats for a different time)

We're already developing a space telescope so powerful that we'll be able to look at earth like bodies light years away and tell if Mr Glognak zzzbluk has a tree in his back garden! It's all a matter of time... everything will eventually fall into place. We need to stop spending all our money on prehistoric religious wars and build ourselves a new form of engine (We need to be able to fly through space faster) in order to visit our new friends, and or flee our planet as may be the case if we keep destroying our atmosphere or growing as a species at the current terrifying rate (Not enough fresh water folks... prepare for some feckin harsh times)

Then the real progress can begin and we can let go of our medieval corrupt beliefs...

Keep looking up folks... because that's our true home! It's all connected... our Galaxy is just one big giant whirlpool! and what does our cosmic life blood on this planet do naturally... the natural force of gravity.... it's all connected. We're all connected...



Didn't know ye had it in ye. Brilliantly put. This is an emergent universe where nothing stays the same. everything evolves from the galaxies in space to the life on Earth. We must align ourselves with natural law and outgrow institutions which are reluctant to change, such as religion-the greatest cause of war , and money which is the sole reason for poverty. Once people realise they are connected to the Earth, via a relevant education, we can achieve great things here, but it is up to religions to either move with the times or disappear into myth and legend like all the religions before them.

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1558 - 22/03/2010 19:55:18    595513

Pomeroy, children make their communion and confession when they are 7-8-9 years old. They make confirmation at 11-12-13. The catholic church puts the "age of responsibility" at 7 years of age. This is indoctrination, nothing more, nothing less, and you support it - you have said so yourself.

Do you honestly believe that the catholic church has no bearing on the lives of non-catholics? Seriously? How does it affect my life you ask? Well I was baptised as a member of the catholic church even though I had no say in the matter. I was coerced into making the my first confession as a terrified 7year-old and later my communion and confirmation.

The education of my children is a huge issue for me as it is for other non-catholics and catholics alike. Yet the catholic church enjoys a near-monopoly on education in my country. The state broadcaster to which I pay a licence fee plays two minutes of banging noise each day. I am prevented from puchasing alcohol on certain days of the year by the government of this country who continue to bow down to Rome. "Blasphemy" is illegal under our constitution, which contains dozens of religious references. Judges are required to take an oath to "god". Ex-government ministers and lawmakers have been members of powerful religious institutions.

The catholic church has attempted in the past and continues to attempt to hinder important medical research. Thousands of people would not have been able to conceive children had the catholic church got it's way. People would not be able to divorce and remarry. It is a powerful interest group and continues to lobby against important laws.

P.S. I have already outlined my reasons for attending the anniversary masses of my deceased grandparents and why I sometimes attend weddings and funerals in churches, not that I feel the need to justify myself to you.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 22/03/2010 20:02:50    595527

black&white, there are several definitions of atheism, mine is that it is "the absence of a belief that any deities or gods exist". I re-read my previous post where I incorrectly stated atheism was based on scientific fact itself (bad English on my part). It is not, rather it is based on the lack of scientific proof of the existence of any deities. I don't really want to get into an argument between atheism and agnosticism here, my brain hurts enough already. The two are very close and you could argue that atheists are agnostic to a certain extent (Dawkins himself has admitted to being partially agnostic).

I believe much of the misconceptions about prominent atheists and the branding of atheists as "smug" etc. is due to religious people's objection to the use of language and words such as superstition, indoctrination etc. to describe their religious practices. They carry certain negative connotations - superstition with paganism and indoctrination with Nazi Germany, but nevertheless they are entirely accurate. I certainly do not find atheists to be as smug as religious leaders, e.g. the head of the catholic church. It is a matter of perception, I suppose.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 22/03/2010 20:50:09    595627

nocky
County: Wexford

I certainly do not find atheists to be as smug as religious leaders


Try looking in the mirror.

Yop (Wexford) - Posts: 362 - 23/03/2010 09:36:34    595846

I think some people's branding of atheists as "smug" is a sort of defence mechanism, because they just are not prepared to listen to reason. It is impossible to have a reasoned debate with many "believers". I'm not one bit bothered if you find me "smug" Yop.

P.S. here is a definition of smug: "contentedly confident of one's ability or correctness."

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 23/03/2010 11:31:41    595953

Yop
County: Wexford
Posts: 317

595846 nocky
County: Wexford

I certainly do not find atheists to be as smug as religious leaders


Try looking in the mirror.

No man...! Look up!

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 23/03/2010 11:47:24    595975

Surely merely attending mass is not really the point, are committed followers not meant to participate

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 23/03/2010 11:50:18    595980