CheFinny
County: UK
Posts: 666

525109 Patrique is just envious because every time he looks out over the Ligh he sees the townland of Ardboe where brave strong republican men parade round wearing their AI medals under the tricolour. Being from Antrim town he can't take that and it hurts. The good people of Toome and Creggan wouldnt begrudge us only a semi boy from Antrim town.

Che i think your forgetting something or actually some place else he sees................................... the Moortown wit crico and pj :D

duke_raul (Tyrone) - Posts: 993 - 05/01/2010 19:23:06    525172

CheFinny
County: UK
Posts: 666

525109
Patrique is just envious because every time he looks out over the Ligh he sees the townland of Ardboe where brave strong republican men parade round wearing their AI medals under the tricolour


Is this a recent phenomena?

There weren't too many of them between 1969 and 1994. And are there no women in Ardboe, or do you just not notice?

And I am from Andersonstown, where I enjoyed a posh upbringing.

Well, apart from going to school in Casement Park changing rooms.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 05/01/2010 20:01:19    525207

So Chefinny, you like your men big and brave then?

stranmillis29 (Antrim) - Posts: 788 - 05/01/2010 20:02:51    525209

He must have some eyesight to see from the Falls

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 05/01/2010 20:33:33    525240

stranmillis29
County: Antrim
Posts: 540

525209 So Chefinny, you like your men big and brave then?
--------------------------
In Ardboe its generally the sheep that parade under the tricolour!

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 05/01/2010 20:37:46    525243

I can't see how over the past 20 years any team other than Tyrone can be seriously considered. They have won 3 all-irelands including one which took them 10 games to win the title. That is a long journey. Even when they won the title through the front door in 2003 they had to play more games than Down, Derry or Donegal. As with all other contributers my views are personal but I will try and rank them in terms of national titles, with an SFC with 1 point and an NFL 0.5 points

Tyrone 3 SFC, 2 NFL (4 points)
Derry 1 SFC, 4 NFL? (3 points)
Down 2 SFC (2 points)
Armagh 1 SFC, 1 NFL (1.5 points)
Donegal 1 SFC 1 NFL (1.5 points)

I feel this is about right as for a large part of the 90's Derry were the team expected to deliver but unfortunately it was usually the NFL rather than the SFC. My feeling is that Armagh should be ahead of Down given their period of dominance in Ulster which was unequalled since the days of the great Cavan teams. A measure taking into account semi-final appearances would help the scoring but cannot use that metric since in the first decade provincial winners were automatically in the semi.

Taking the scoring further and outside the province:

Kerry 9?
Galway 2
Dublin 2
Mayo 0.25 (foot and mouth League Title only)

John Boss (Tyrone) - Posts: 865 - 05/01/2010 21:03:57    525277

John Boss
County: Tyrone
Posts: 563

525277


NO ONE in the ENTIRE island of greater IRELAND disputes that TYRONE were the best Ulster COUNTY, that is COUNTY, over the last 20 years. No one disputes that.

However of the four teams I mentioned, divided into 5 year periods, NO ONE has said Tyrone were the best.

Which makes me suspect that EVERYONE agrees with my original ranking, which placed them last.

Otherwise, why would people be going on about 5 different Tyrone sides over the last twenty years?

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 05/01/2010 22:14:52    525334

John Boss
County: Tyrone
Posts: 563



Apart from that by the way John, sound reasoning in your argument.

But apply it please if you can to the 4 examples I gave.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 05/01/2010 22:22:19    525347

I do know what the thread is about Patrique, as much as you do yourself I suspect.
You have decided the time-scales by which these teams are measured so that immediately works against Tyrone who won an All-Ireland the year after their designated time period ends.
You say elsewhere that nobody on here thinks that the Tyrone team (in your specially designed time-period) are the best Ulster team of the last 20 years. Well, I would say they were. They played Kerry off the park in 2003 and 2005 to win those two All-Irelands, the first Sams in their history. They beat a fantastic Armagh team, when it really mattered in 2005. They beat the Dubs in their back yard in 2005. If you even peek, ever so slightly, outside the alloted time-period 2003-07, which you gave them, then you will see that they won Sam again in 2008, again beating Kerry, and the Dubs.

Trying to say that I don't understand this carefully manufactured topic isn't going to sway my opinion on this! The Down side were the closest to Tyrone, very close mind you, a brilliant side with marquee players in Linden, McCartan, Carr and co.

Donegal_abroad (Donegal) - Posts: 1403 - 06/01/2010 09:16:11    525521

Sorry Patrique, I had'nt read your original thread in full. I cannot however consider the 2008 to be a significantly different team from 2003. The core of the team remained intact from 2003. You may talk of missing Canavan and Ger Cavlan, Lawn etc. but any panel changes from year to year. Paddy O Rourke lifted Sam in 1991 and even though Paddy was'nt there in 1994 it was still considered the same Down team. Indeed in 2003 Canavans contribution in the latter stages of the championship were limited although of course highly motivational for those players around him. By the time it came to 2005 Lawn and Canavan were substitute players although once again highly significant. Teams do not exist in 5 year blocks and are usually created by successful underage sides, the duration of those players at senior level are more like 8-9 years.

As an example I would consider the following year spans to reflect 3 different Tyrone teams.
Tyrone 82-92
Tyrone 93-01
Tyrone 02-09

Maybe 2010 will have significant enough changes in personnel for it to be considered a different team but I would suspect that is more likely in 2011.

John Boss (Tyrone) - Posts: 865 - 06/01/2010 21:31:55    526289

Boss, the Down teams in 91 & 94 were very similar. There were only about 3 new players in.

If anyone wants to get real pedantic its not very often the same 'team' (same 15 players) play consecutive games never mind seasons.

blu (Down) - Posts: 1240 - 06/01/2010 22:06:06    526333

Tyrone where far the best down next fact.

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 06/01/2010 22:07:06    526338

Donegal_abroad
County: Donegal
Posts: 128

525521
I do know what the thread is about Patrique, as much as you do yourself I suspect.
You have decided the time-scales by which these teams are measured so that immediately works against Tyrone who won an All-Ireland the year after their designated time period ends.


OK, change Tyrone to 2004-09.

That rules out an all Ireland win and brings in a total humiliation at the hands of Cork, which if the sending off had not happened, we would be saying "Donegal did rightly against Cork".

So have it your way. Would Cork have annihilated Down, Derry or Armagh, in your opinion?

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 06/01/2010 22:34:30    526379

Dellboypolecat
County: Tyrone
Posts: 8769

526338
Tyrone where far the best down next fact.


If we insert a bit of punctuation into the above I think it is saying "Tyrone were the best",. FACT.

If it is, well that's it. It is a proven in law, unchallengeable fact, given in tablet form by Moses Harte to the chosen people.

Dell, are you evangelical by any chance?

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 06/01/2010 22:38:09    526387

patrique County: Antrim Posts: 6496 522754 Well, we have 4 candidates. 1991 - 1995: DERRY In those 5 years Dery in 1991 lost to Down in Ulster in a replay. Down won the All Ireland. In 92 they lost narrowly to Donegal, who won sam. In 93 they won the lot, 94 lost to Down who won Sam, and in 95 lost to Tyrone, unlucky not to win Sam. Southern counties feared them throughout the decade, and in those five years, with a back door, might have won 3 all Ireland's. DOWN 1991-95: Won the lot in 91 and 94. In 92 lost to Derry, a top two team, and in 1993 it was Derry again. Derry of course won sam that year. ARMAGH: 1999-2003; in thoswe 5 years Armagh lost in 99 too the winners Meath, in 2000 to the winners Kerry, in 01 to the winners galway, won it in 02, and lost the final in 03. So in all 5 years they only lost to the winners. TYRONE: 2003-07: In 03 Tyrone won the lot. In 04 they lost to Donegal, and then were well beaten by Mayo, who went on to reach the final. In o5 Tyrone won via the back door, having lost in Ulster to Armagh. In 06 they were well beaten by Derry, and then Laois. In 2007 they won Ulster, but l;ost to Meath in the knckouts. Sooooo............ Armagh only lost to all Ireland winners in the five years, and Derry lost to winners, apart from Tyrone in 95. Down were neck and neck with derry over their five years, the two best teams in the land. Tyrone blew hot and cold, losing to also rans in-between their success. So to rate them, I would have to go with..... Down Armagh Derry Tyrone. I thought that I would stay out of this, as I know it's a wind-up but I could not resist when Patrique continued with a nonsense argument. Patrique leaves out some facts and makes up the rest. Armagh 1999 - 2003 "in all five years only lost to the winners" - Did Tyrone not defeat Armagh in 2001 and go on to win the Ulster championship? Did Monaghan not beat Armagh in 2003? Down 1991-1995 - in 1993 this team were beaten by 11 points on their own pitch by Derry! Would that have happened to this Tyrone team? Derry 1991-1995 - a strong team but only won one all-ireland, cannot be compared to the Tyrone team (2003 - PRESENT) that went on to win 3 all-irelands. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good wind-up. The facts are that the backbone of the Tyrone team from 2003-2007 have 3 all-irelands.

MB1 (Tyrone) - Posts: 360 - 07/01/2010 12:50:37    526710

Patrique- Tyrone lost by 5 points to Cork, it hardly qualifies as total humiliation. And it is wishful thinking on your part to say that Cork would have beaten Tyrone by a score similar to the Donegal game had Cork not been reduced to 14 men..That may or may not have changed the eventual outcome of the game by such a drastic margin as you suppose. Again, you are the one who has picked the 5 year time-scale, be it 2003-2007, or 2004-2008. I suggest that you picked this timescale, due to, in some part (small or large) the fact that Tyrone won 3 Sams in 6 years. With a 6 year timescale, the question over who the best team of the last 20 years in Ulster is becomes easier to answer and points at Tyrone. I'm a Donegal man and I don't like Tyrone, that should be obvious. Never is that more evident than when we're playing them as I scream for Donegal that much louder in games versus Tyrone and Derry. But I have to admit that the team they have had since the early noughties, with its changes all the while, has been fantastic. As an Ulster man, I am proud with how the have represented our province Patrique, and the huge entertainment they have provided. The games they have been involved in will live long in the memory, and the quality of their players has been exceptional during these fruitful years. Would any of those other teams you have mentioned have beaten the 2009 Cork team? There is no simple answer for me. The Cork teams that came out against Donegal and Tyrone were superb, no question there. Would Derry, Down and Armagh teams of the past have matched that? Maybe, but maybe not... Armagh, in 2006, were fantastic against Kerry in the AI Quarter-Final for long spells, but ended up losing by a distance. That was a fantastic match. Still wouldn't call that a drubbing. Therefore, Tyrone losing to a red-hot Cork team by 5 points was a defeat, not a humiliation. It has not ended Tyrone for my money. This bunch of players seem to thrive on adversity. Kevin Cassidy says Donegal need an Ulster title for 2010, I agree. I reckon most of Tyrone will feel that they really need the AI 2010.

Donegal_abroad (Donegal) - Posts: 1403 - 07/01/2010 13:36:37    526770

MB1
County: Tyrone
Posts: 110

Down 1991-1995 - in 1993 this team were beaten by 11 points on their own pitch by Derry! Would that have happened to this Tyrone team?

Derry 1991-1995 - a strong team but only won one all-ireland, cannot be compared to the Tyrone team (2003 - PRESENT) that went on to win 3 all-irelands.



Interesting points.

I thought a poor Derry beat Tyrone by a wide margin in 2006, so maybe a very good Derry would have beaten them by about 20 points. It is a possibility worth considering.

Secondly if Derry 1991 -95 had a back door? Might have won out EVERY year, certainly well worth debating.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 07/01/2010 16:32:50    527000

donegal abroad.

nice one there donegal, like myself i would like 2 see my next door neighbours by the finn doing well.
that goes for the rest of the province.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 07/01/2010 18:16:25    527179

patrique County: Antrim Posts: 6510 527000 MB1 County: Tyrone Posts: 110 Down 1991-1995 - in 1993 this team were beaten by 11 points on their own pitch by Derry! Would that have happened to this Tyrone team? Derry 1991-1995 - a strong team but only won one all-ireland, cannot be compared to the Tyrone team (2003 - PRESENT) that went on to win 3 all-irelands. Interesting points. I thought a poor Derry beat Tyrone by a wide margin in 2006, so maybe a very good Derry would have beaten them by about 20 points. It is a possibility worth considering. Secondly if Derry 1991 -95 had a back door? Might have won out EVERY year, certainly well worth debating. If I remember correctly a 13 man Tyrone team beat the Derry 1995 team, now that Tyrone team would be regarded as poor in comparison to the 2003-present team, you wonder just how Derry would have coped with a strong 15 man Tyrone team! You may also consider that if there had been a back door in this period Derry may not have won any all-Irelands. Who knows how they would have coped if they had to play Donegal again who they scraped by in the Ulster final. I notice the factual inaccuracies in your initial post regarding Armagh's record have been ignored!

MB1 (Tyrone) - Posts: 360 - 07/01/2010 21:16:17    527500

Donegal_abroad
County: Donegal
Posts: 129

Great post lad ...

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 07/01/2010 21:34:58    527548