"Oh hang on,weren't all Britsh club banned from Europe at this time?Why was that then? "

The ban was due to the Heysel disaster. This was caused by riotting Liverpool fans as well as UEFA's ridiculous decision to house a massive game in a crumbling stadium. Don't know what point you're making there Tipple

Wouldn't have mattered if British clubs were allowed in or not, Fergie still wouldn't have won a european cup in the first few years he was in charge because they didn't win the league. The first year that United could have qualified for european competition would have been 88 and that would have been for the UEFA cup. Considering Uniteds form in the 88/89 season, it is very unlikely they would have gone far in the UEFA cup. The year that they did win the FA cup coincided with the lift on the ban, which we all know they went on to win the Cup Winners Cup the following season. But in the years that the ban applied, bar a run in the UEFA cup, United wouldn't have won anything in European competition.

The 2 biggest losers of the ban were Liverpool and Everton

NavyNBlue (Dublin) - Posts: 1357 - 13/11/2009 14:14:32    482978

Brolly - Do you mean Fergies buys were better or worse than Rafa's?
Not sure what your take is on how good you'd rate Hughes, Ince, Pallister, McClair compared to Rafa's best Reina, Torres, Alonso

NavyNBlue (Dublin) - Posts: 1357 - 13/11/2009 14:22:05    482988

Tipple30 County: Tipperary Posts: 30 482891 Is everyone forgetting that Rafa won an FA Cup and Champs Lge in his first 5 years?That has to be a great achievement.Alex Ferguson couldn't have done this and was nowhere near winning the european cups in his first 5 years. Oh hang on,weren't all Britsh club banned from Europe at this time?Why was that then? Nothing happened, there was a big party in Belgium with some really well-behaved and completely innocent folks from Merseyside. Some Italians came too and everyone had a really great time. If you think anyhting else happened then you're just part of the anti-scouse consiracy. Scousers have never been responsible for anything bad, ever. It's all just a big conspiracy against them

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 13/11/2009 14:22:17    482989

Hindsight is great.Considering Uniteds form in the league they wouldn't have won the Uefa cup?Wasn't it in 2005 Liverpool the Champs Lge and still finished 5th in the title race?Closer on points to the bottom than to the top. rafa concentrates on the Champs Lge every year.fergie might have done that if he had the choice but scousers took that choice away from him.Before fergie came to United he won the European Cup with Aberdeen.His goal all along was to have success in Europe.

All I am saying is that you can't compare Fergies first 5 years in charge with Rafa's as there are too many details to discuss.
Rafa gave the Premier League a go last year and fair play to him but I think it has broken the man.I am a United fan but think that Liverpool should have won the league last year but for stupid draws that United would never let happen.I honestly thought ye would win it this year too.I don't now!

Tipple30 (Tipperary) - Posts: 77 - 13/11/2009 14:39:08    483008

NavyNBlue
County: Dublin
Posts: 207


The ban was due to the Heysel disaster. This was caused by riotting Liverpool fans as well as UEFA's ridiculous decision to house a massive game in a crumbling stadium.

As always, it's someone else's fault. The stadium wouldn't have been an issue if the fans didn't riot., because the wall wouldn't have collapsed.
Are you trying to say that Uefa are somehow responsible for the Liverpool fans rioting?
Are Liverpool fans really that incapable of taking responsibilty for their own actions?

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 13/11/2009 14:49:13    483019

"This was caused by riotting Liverpool fans as well as UEFA's ridiculous decision to house a massive game in a crumbling stadium. "

I think I've indicated in that line itself that I firmly believe that Liverpool fans WERE to blame for the Heysel disaster. I'm not trying to deflect blame but the Heysel stadium was crumbling. Heysel Stadium was not a suitable venue for a match such as the European Cup Final. The 55-year-old stadium had not been well maintained for several years, and large parts of the stadium were crumbling. Liverpool players and fans later said that they were shocked at the abject conditions of the ground, despite reports from Arsenal fans that the stadium was a "dump" when the Gunners played there a few years earlier. Liverpool CEO Peter Robinson urged UEFA to choose another venue, to no avail.

Would a wall have fallen in another well maintained stadium?

I'm just talking football here black & white, why so confrontational?

NavyNBlue (Dublin) - Posts: 1357 - 13/11/2009 15:12:28    483044

"Hindsight is great.Considering Uniteds form in the league they wouldn't have won the Uefa cup?Wasn't it in 2005 Liverpool the Champs Lge and still finished 5th in the title race?Closer on points to the bottom than to the top. rafa concentrates on the Champs Lge every year.fergie might have done that if he had the choice but scousers took that choice away from him.Before fergie came to United he won the European Cup with Aberdeen.His goal all along was to have success in Europe." Hindsight is exactly what my point is on this Tipple. We all know now what a great manager Fergie is but United fans certainly didn't think the same away about him now than they did in 89. Sure, Fergie didn't have the choice to concentrate on another competition but should that have affected their ability to compete for domestic honours? Liverpool finished 5th the year they won the Champions league, United finished 11th the season after coming second - bit of a difference there in terms of how far one went and how far one could have gone had they been playing in a competition. But look, it doesn't matter to me, you being a United supporter, do you think their team of 88/89 would have been good enough to win the UEFA cup that year? I certainly think the Liverpool team of the same year could have done well in the European Cup the same year but we'll never know about that either

NavyNBlue (Dublin) - Posts: 1357 - 13/11/2009 15:21:04    483056

As I was saying,Liverpool fans seem to hold up Rafa's 1st 5 years against Fergie's and I am just saying that you can't compare them.

To be fair,do I think United's team then would have won the Uefa Cup?Who knows?a bad Liverpool team won the champions league in 2005.Nothing is impossible.But then again they deliberately took every weekend off in order to achieve that!

Tipple30 (Tipperary) - Posts: 77 - 13/11/2009 16:00:28    483093

NavyNBlue
County: Dublin
Posts: 209

482785 Don't mean to harp on about this but to say the United were a mid table club when Fergie took over is also wrong. The previous 2 seasons before Fergie took over, United finished 4th and had only won the FA Cup in 85. In the next 4 seasons that Fergie was in charge United finished 2nd once, 11th twice and 13th once with an FA cup to show for it.

Compare that to Rafa's first 4 seasons in charge - Champos league, FA Cup and runner up in champos league final finishing in the top 4 bar the first season.

Now which record looks better??

For the last time you cant compare managing a club in the 80's to Nowadays-Crazy.The lengths people go to try and prove a point shows just how bitter they are and how far they will go to prove a ridiculous point.

fredrickwood (Roscommon) - Posts: 2871 - 13/11/2009 19:27:46    483250

For the last time you cant compare managing a club in the 80's to Nowadays-Crazy.The lengths people go to try and prove a point shows just how bitter they are and how far they will go to prove a ridiculous point.

Fredrickwood
I'm hardly bitter. I'm simply debating. I'm simply making the point that Fergie wasn't always a successful manager and in fact United fans at one time or another wanted rid of him. Some Liverpool fans, myself included, are of the same opinion on Rafa at this moment in time. But, as Fergie proved, just because you don't have success early on it doesn't mean you won't be successful later.
I take yours and tipples point that the champos league has changed the way in which the premier league works. Liverpool are in fact proof of that with their success in 05. There is more money available to the top 4 and there is a much wider range of player available to English clubs now than there were back in the 80s. Having more money to spend and more players available doesn't necessarily mean you'll always bring the right player to a club. Granted Ferguson would have a better record in the transfer market than Rafa would but he's also been guilty of the odd slip up.
There are other factors that come along with the extra money and competition that the champos league brings. Had Ferguson taken over United under the same pressure as Premier league managers are under today, do you think he would still be in a job had he finished 2 seasons finishing 11th and 13th one year after another like he did back in the day? Rafa finished 2nd last season and now looks to be set for the door even though we're not even half way through this season.

NavyNBlue (Dublin) - Posts: 1357 - 14/11/2009 08:11:15    483518

I would encuorage anyone who thinks Fergie was'nt under pressure at ot from day 1 to read Eamon Dunphy's excellent Book on Sir Matt Busby-Only a Game.

fredrickwood (Roscommon) - Posts: 2871 - 14/11/2009 15:14:41    483691

NavyNBlue
County: Dublin
Posts: 210


Fredrickwood
I'm hardly bitter. I'm simply debating. I'm simply making the point that Fergie wasn't always a successful manager and in fact United fans at one time or another wanted rid of him. Some Liverpool fans, myself included, are of the same opinion on Rafa at this moment in time. But, as Fergie proved, just because you don't have success early on it doesn't mean you won't be successful later.
I take yours and tipples point that the champos league has changed the way in which the premier league works. Liverpool are in fact proof of that with their success in 05. There is more money available to the top 4 and there is a much wider range of player available to English clubs now than there were back in the 80s. Having more money to spend and more players available doesn't necessarily mean you'll always bring the right player to a club. Granted Ferguson would have a better record in the transfer market than Rafa would but he's also been guilty of the odd slip up.
There are other factors that come along with the extra money and competition that the champos league brings. Had Ferguson taken over United under the same pressure as Premier league managers are under today, do you think he would still be in a job had he finished 2 seasons finishing 11th and 13th one year after another like he did back in the day? Rafa finished 2nd last season and now looks to be set for the door even though we're not even half way through this season.

NavyNBlue

I don't think 5 years is a short period of time. He has been given ample time and cash to turn things around. I can't remember a top club sticking by a manager for so long when things have continued to go wrong. Maybe Arsenal have stuck by Wenger in the last few years but only because they have limited funds at present and they can see he is doing the best possible with what he has been given. I can not say the same for Rafa.

Fergie is a one off in more ways than one, he was lucky things turned around for him when they did. We will never know what would have happened if Robins hadn't scored against Forest. But Fergie was at a transitional stage at Old T. The club was not in great shape when he took over and funds were not as readily available as they are today. I am not his biggest fan but he is a winner and as time has proved that is the case.

You say he finished 2nd last season and now it looks like he might be on his way. Look at Avan Grant at Chelsea 2 years ago a whisker away from a Prem and Champions league double and what happens He is fired. He didn't even get a full season???

As has been said already on here, i don't think Liverpool could afford to sack him at present. So I think you will see him given more time through default anyway.

By the way a source has informed me he didn't get the job at La Tasqa's Didsbury. Just in case you thought he may jump ship.

Mancirish (UK) - Posts: 2200 - 14/11/2009 17:27:26    483779

Sorry guys, i might be wrong about Rafa at La Tasqa's. I had Sunday lunch there this afternoon, I'm sure the guy serving me was him. I asked for his autograph and he rushed away rather sheepishly?????

COULD IT HAVE BEEN HIM??????

I'll keep you updated.

Mancirish (UK) - Posts: 2200 - 15/11/2009 21:29:59    484471

Mancirish had you the lamb for lunch?

Mulligan Eamonn (None) - Posts: 896 - 15/11/2009 21:49:27    484494

fredrickwood
County: Roscommon
Posts: 1384

483691 I would encuorage anyone who thinks Fergie was'nt under pressure at ot from day 1 to read Eamon Dunphy's excellent Book on Sir Matt Busby-Only a Game.

Even as I was writing this I knew it was'nt the name of that book,and it in the cupboard behind me,its actually called Sir Matt Busby and Manchester United-A strange kind of glory.
Although I highly recommend Dunphys book Only a game.Brilliant book.

fredrickwood (Roscommon) - Posts: 2871 - 15/11/2009 22:11:31    484514

Na Eamonn, i had the Donegal salmon. It was fantastic.

Mancirish (UK) - Posts: 2200 - 15/11/2009 22:16:24    484525

Well, i think it might be a case of who will go first now Hughsie or Rafa. No win for either team again today puts them both under even more pressure.

Who will go first lads???

I've got it as evens i can't split them.

Is that the final nail in the premiership coffin for another year?

Mancirish (UK) - Posts: 2200 - 21/11/2009 16:27:22    490282

Mancirish County: UK Posts: 136 490282 Well, i think it might be a case of who will go first now Hughsie or Rafa. No win for either team again today puts them both under even more pressure. Who will go first lads??? I've got it as evens i can't split them. I would love it to be Hughes, but alas he is now the only manager in Manchester NOT to have lost to Liverpool, or Burnley, this year. Some put great store in that. Benitez. One champions league and one runners up in 5 years, albeit under trying circumstances, but not really good enough. Big clubs like Milan, Real, Barcelona and Chelsea tend to demand more from their managers. Lets face it, Del Bosque was sacked for only WINNING two in four years.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 21/11/2009 17:39:03    490308

Rafa must go now he has lost it completely .

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 21/11/2009 21:10:04    490465

Dellboypolecat
County: Tyrone
Posts: 7470

490465
Rafa must go now he has lost it completely .



Just been on the news. Although he has only won CL once in 5 years, Liverpool have decided to give him another 18years to see if he can equal Sir Alex's achievement, of two wins in 23 years.

If he fails, well you would think he had lost it then. I mean, two in 23 years. Come on.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 21/11/2009 22:59:07    490576