re: omaghjoe

Have to say i find this very interesting but i hope your not saying because the normans choose to adopt it it makes it less irish? They used to get peasants from their estates to play to entertain the nobility. I think the game of hurling is more similar to the original celtic game were the the ball was hurled between towns and there isn't really many games like it in other countries bar shinty etc. But the origins of gaelic football are less clear you made the point of referring to caid which in a sense was a game were the ball was carried between towns in what can be described as a ruck when the foot part of the game came in is unclear maybe other influences??

There also an interesting debate saying that Australian rules influenced Gaelic football instead of the other way around they say that auusie rules is based on Marn Grook and the rules for australian rules were drawn up in 1859. Tomas Croke one of the founding members of the gaa was bishop in auckland before returning to ireland and would have seen the australians playing aussie rules there as there was a lot of settlers due to a gold rush.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 16/09/2009 01:01:26    427369

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/sports-recreation/sport/wexford-hurling/the-geography-of-hurling/

This link somes up that although hurling was very popular in munster is was still played in non "Norman" areas, it also somes up my point that the different style of game played in the north of the country has far more to do with the development and popularity of the games.
Established rules where originally set up by the irish hurling union in 1879 at trinity, that where more like the southern game but restricted the size of the bas.

This quote some what backs up my point about the british etc having an effect on the game:

"The Anglicization of Ireland seems to explain why the modern game of hurling developed most fully in the south, rather than the north. With the passing of the Act of Union in 1800,when many English and Lowland Scottish farmers moved to Ulster, a distinctively Gaelic culture was all but extinguished. But Irish resisted the pacification process, and outside Ulster (and particularly the southeast counties) hurling continued. Hurling declined during the famines of the 1840s, then was revived by the foundation of the Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA), part of the larger cultural resurgence. By then, hurling had vanished almost entirely to the north of Dublin and was suffering (desperately in the south) from famine and flagging nationalism."

Taken from http://hubpages.com/hub/An-Introduction-on-Irish-Hurling-Sport
not nescessary reliable but makes sense to me.

Your theory is based on a map and one line that we were all taught in history class about the early norman knights coming over. anglo irish lords did have a impact on the organisation but not until the 18th century.

Up The Duff (Down) - Posts: 98 - 16/09/2009 13:38:14    427707

donegal_insider
County: Donegal
Posts: 376

424344 Puddersthecat:
So the Kilkenny hurlers working with Donegal are doing what

I support Pat Spillanes theory when he said all weaker countries should send a bus load of women down to Kilkenny every now and again.

chainsaw (Laois) - Posts: 712 - 16/09/2009 17:07:47    427985

HAGANDCHEESE and UPtheDUFF
Firstly
I don't have any predetermined agenda that I trying to pursue to find the actual development and origins of hurling or football. I think that both are equally Irish and deserve equal status as such. Don't be sucked it by halftruth and lies becasue they sound attractive to the present, and remember that history happened not for us to arrive at our convient conclusion to jusify ourselves in the here and now.... It just happened

The people who wrote these articles seem to have an agenda The first article while I think is quite a good article becasue there appears to be some interesting facts in it to particular beginning with this statement says it all:
"Rugby is a game for ruffians played by gentlemen, soccer is a game for gentlemen played by ruffians, Gaelic football is a game for ruffians played by ruffians but hurling is a game for gentlemen played by gentlemen."
Anyway apart from that I have the distriubtion map of camans quite interesting, particular the density of camans matches in Inishowen, I wonder where this information was taken from. I would have to question why there is no Ards games of camans or hurling, seems strange. I would definetly be more interested in trying to find out more about camans it spread and evoloution, I would also imagine that shinty is more influenced by it than the other way around.

The second article I would take mostly as populist tripe , the fact that he conviently joins the Act of Union to the Ulster Plantation which hapened 150-200 years earlier proves my point and highlights a serve lack of knowledge of Irish history. Also the penal laws were probably more likely a bigger supression of Gaelic Culture, which occured nationwide in the 18th century, but this is period that your first article is showing the distribution of the games. Also the supression of Gaelic culture is irrelvant becasue 500years ealier it had become Norman culture, as written about in the Statues of Kilkenny.
It does however raise an interesting point about the hurling home and the hurling at goals, this is also mentioned by HagandCheese. I am to the thinking that hurling home was preNorman hurling the Normans organised it to an extent and created a form of hurling at goals and this game evolved into the two forms of northern and southern hurling.

Also my theroy is based on logic thinking from my own knowledge on Irish history and actual written Norman law which is solid concrete evidence and not a convient conclusion that modern hurling spin doctors have produced based on isolated handpicked pockets of information and legend, while ignoring the elephant in the room that the Normans where a major force in the evolution and spread of hurling.

omaghjoe (Tyrone) - Posts: 1191 - 16/09/2009 20:01:01    428167

every comment on this thread is pseudo-historical. waste of time to discuss something like this without access to sources

wingwonder (UK) - Posts: 535 - 16/09/2009 20:51:22    428213

re: omaghjoe

Yes i would agreed that both hurling and caid in the time differ greatly from what is now. I remember reading about a fellow documenting caid around the 12th century and saying the was two different sorts played a field game with goal posts and the older game played say on the lad between two towns.

Some further history on hurling although probably not resembling the game of nowadays much was played by the celts and in the Tailteann Games.

"Records show evidence that hurling was a regular pasttime in Ireland for well over 2,000 years. In fact the first recorded reference to hurling dates to the Battle of Moytura, near Cong in County Mayo (in the West of Ireland) in 1272 BC between the native Fir Bolg and the invading Tuatha De Danann. When both sides were preparing for battle they decided to have a hurling contest instead, between twenty-seven of the best players from each side. Both sides fought a bloody match and in the end when they were bruised and broken the match finished with the he Fir Bolg victorious who then slew the Tuatha De Danann.

It is known that the Tailteann Games, said to be the oldest recorded organised sports in the world, were held in Ireland as far back as approximately 1800BC, and that they went on until 1180AD. Hurling was likely to have been a central part of those games."

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 16/09/2009 21:06:53    428242

HAG AND CHEESE

I wouldn't be a bigger believer about the Irish mythology alot of it was written 1000s of years after it was suposed to take place. Book of Genesis springs to mind, Codswallop in other words.
I have to agree with wing wonder its all specualtive both what I am writing and what the modern historical view on hurling is. However my arguement is that my theroy is more logical than the modern romantic view that Setanta played hurling and then "we" all played hurling until the Plantation of Ulster when the Brits stopped the northern half of the country playing hurling and then the GAA game along in 1888 and made a modern country wide competition for an anicent sport that had existing since ancient times. I think this view was probably started by the Celtic revival which also had ridiculous notions that Brehon society was some sort of utopia, whereas in reality it was an unending spiral of local skirmsihes and cattle thefts!

omaghjoe (Tyrone) - Posts: 1191 - 16/09/2009 21:34:28    428273

re: omaghjoe

I agree a lot might be mythology but the Tailteann Games were not mythology i'm not sure if caid were a part but probably was my point is hurling dates back to the celts and call it folklore if you want but it is a part of our anicent history granted i agree the normans may have structured it a bit better but it was uniquely celtic and hurling is uniquely irish it has deeper founded roots than gealic football in my view and maybe that were the hurling snobbery comes from?

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 16/09/2009 22:03:36    428315

HagandCheese

But your notion that hurling has deeper roots is based on no concrete evidence. And trying to claim roots from a vastly different sport than is what is played today and claiming superiority of it over another becasue of that is mindbogglingly illogical.
But your entitled to your opinion as to whatever keeps you happy!

Sigh! All this in football final week

omaghjoe (Tyrone) - Posts: 1191 - 16/09/2009 22:54:43    428373

Just something i came across on the statutes

Statutes
Ireland was ruled by the English Normans and the Statutes of Kilkenny were designed to keep the rulers apart from the Irish peasantry by banning Anglo-Irish marriages, speaking Irish, adopting Irish customs, laws, names, clothing and playing the game of hurling.
However hurling proved to be too popular with all classes of society and it was not until the Galway Statutes of 1527 that the game was effectively outlawed.
Those statutes forbad the playing of hokie, a stick and ball game, probably because of the violence and disorder that accompanied the games. Other games were also forbidden 'except alone football with the grate ball'. Thus Gaelic Football became the island's most popular sport, and it remains so today.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 16/09/2009 23:08:39    428393

I think wingwonder has a point, there is very little reliable sources out there, and any that exist are sprend all over the show, omaghjoe does have a point about the links I posted , the first has a statement at the start that doesn't relate to the rest of the article and thought it might get some mention. The second as I already said was not the most reliable.

Though to answer your question about the ards penisula I as far as I know hurling wasn't played there until after the formation of the Gaa, a tipp man had a great influence in portaferrys early days and Ballycran and Ballgalget weren't formed until the 1930s I believe, you can check out there club websites. Infact if you look the early down hurling championships were dominated by south down teams.
You also said that you were suprised about the amount of hurling in Inishowen, I read somewhere that there's 15th century headstones there with hurls and sliotars on them.

We have to remember that all Gaelic games were at deaths door before the GAA, and perhaps the biggest factor for the current spread of the games might be to do the way the games spread after 1884 rather than before it. Plus as we all know the reluctance of clubs to play both codes as they believe that it will weaken teams in the other is still an issue for the GAA today.
Hurling has been more widespread than you think. Monaghan and Donegal both won ulster hurling titles in the early 20th century. As I already said hurling was popular in south down but eventually football dominated. Laois won the all-Ireland in 1915 and finished runner up twice.
Areas of popularity and rules change over time that's why I disagree that the normans 750years ago would have a large influence on the modern game.

I think this debate raises an important issue that we don't really know a huge amount about the games pre GAA and I wonder how much headquarters knows.

Up The Duff (Down) - Posts: 98 - 17/09/2009 00:21:59    428443

re: omaghjoe

Fair enough if you want the call history mythology. My point is that it bears more resemblence to the modern day game than caid (irish for catch) dose to gaelic i've tried to back it up with evidence your arguement is based on a map. But your entitled to your opinion too.

one last link http://irish-nationalism.net/forum/showthread.php?p=484

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 17/09/2009 09:41:09    428524

This has certainly been quite a diverse thread!

banner_boy (Clare) - Posts: 1285 - 17/09/2009 10:54:02    428592

Hi, I just post here to tell you that in French Low Normandy peoples play to some traditionnal games called "Soule" (or "Choule"in dialect). This sports are considered like a symbol of the cultural identity of Normandy and are played since the XII° century, and they were very popular before the 2nd World War,(in low Normandy and in Morbihan in Britanny some of our grandfather told us that they played it when there were young) even if this games were prohibited since the beggining of XIX° century. The version called "la Choule Crosse" is play with a cross and is a cousin of your Hurling. Here some links in french language about those games: http://sites.google.com/site/jeuxtradinormandie/Home/dates-2009/les-regles/regles http://www.doullens.org/Luc-Decroix/jeuxpicards/soule.html http://normandie.canalblog.com/archives/2008/10/18/11002773.html This games are still played today! So if some of you are interressed to contact, just let me a message on the forum of my gaelic football club in Britanny (i am Fab J) http://www.vannes-football-gaelique.com/

Cordell (USA) - Posts: 4 - 17/09/2009 12:46:08    428714

Hag and Cheese I don't to turn this into a petty fight I have already stated how my evidence was now merely stated in a map and that Irish mythology cannot be taken seriously, its folklore, legend, storytelling mixed in a few facts, great to read but no great to use as historical reference.

I find it hard to believe that there was no ards hurling before the 30s UptheDuff, there was bound to be camans played there, had to be!

Anyway I dont want get into anything petty I think we have thrashed our various viewpoints out well enough can we each put down the points that we can agree on. Fl free to disagree at any point

Both Hurling and Football had ancient ancstors played on this island.
Both have primitive roots more similar to a combination of the modern games of cnapan, road bowls and the puck fada
Hurling was more popular in Norman Ireland than football and was popularised into a standard form of playing the game, football probably was as well at this time but since it wasn't as popular there isnt as much evidence of it.
The English aristoracy viewed Hurling as more Irish than football and tried to outlaw it.
With the demise of the Normans organisation. Hurling split into Northern and South Forms played over wide area of the North and South especially in Norman areas but also other areas and stayed different even after the emergence of the GAA but eventuly hurling won over the old Northern game of camans

There isn't alot of discussion on the emergence of football though any thoughts?? I'll give it ago..

I think that a field form of football was always about and popular as long as the field form of hurling was around, soccer latched onto its existance with the emergence of rules in the 19th century and probably popularised it even more, the the GAA latched onto this surge in popularity and created Irish rules probably more similar to the game that had existed before soccer and give it an even greater boost in popularity, whihc is why it overtook hurling and soccer in terms of poplularity.

omaghjoe (Tyrone) - Posts: 1191 - 17/09/2009 19:14:06    429189

Apologies that first lin should read:
I don't to turn this into a petty fight I have already shown how my evidence was not merely based on a map

omaghjoe (Tyrone) - Posts: 1191 - 17/09/2009 19:43:50    429208

re: Omaghjoe

I don't want to get petty either

quote omaghjoe

"But your entitled to your opinion as to whatever keeps you happy!

Sigh!"
Bit petty no. Right this was a discussion i've given my view and tried to back it up but you right that off as mythology. I'm not saying your off the mark with what you've said. Is that your view or something you've researhed a bit??

I've given one view expressed by the aussie above... not something i've really looked into but caid was mainly a running and throwing game not sure when the foot part came in the romans and greeks had primative football games i know the romans never got here but settlers from england and mainland europe could have brought it over here and maybe brought into caid?? Again i haven't really looked into this so would be interesting to know for sure... I'll admit this is heresay not based on any fact or historical evidence.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 17/09/2009 19:57:27    429223