National Forum

Two-Group Leinster SHC

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To Pikeman96:  "As I keep pointing out, including whenever it's suggested for football, that provincial championships should be run as stand-alone knockout competitions between the League and the All-Ireland Championship, with no actual bearing on or link to the All-Irelands:

If you do that, they'll go the way of the camogie provincial championships. A "nice to win, but doesn't really matter". In time, they'd be no more than a glorified Walsh Cup or Munster Hurling League, and would have no more standing than either of them."
Wouldn't be so sure about that. The national hurling league is standalone and doing fine for what it is. With the history and tradition of provincial championships, as long as they keep their place in the calendar, I think they'd be ok. Irrelevant talk in hurling anyway as the Munster SHC is bringing in lot of money.

(Football is only one step away from standalone provincial championships after essentially having standalone finals this year. It seems however that the clamour to reward provincial winners might win out.)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9874 - 08/06/2026 09:10:30    2678609

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Wouldn't be so sure about that. The national hurling league is standalone and doing fine for what it is. With the history and tradition of provincial championships, as long as they keep their place in the calendar, I think they'd be ok. Irrelevant talk in hurling anyway as the Munster SHC is bringing in lot of money.

(Football is only one step away from standalone provincial championships after essentially having standalone finals this year. It seems however that the clamour to reward provincial winners might win out.)"
Nonsense. The national hurling league is a warm up competition. You tried this over on the football thread. GAA is built on local competition. County, provincial , All Ireland. Thats the system. The league is glorified pre season.

Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 600 - 08/06/2026 10:19:00    2678618

Link

Replying To Tadhg2020:  "Nonsense. The national hurling league is a warm up competition. You tried this over on the football thread. GAA is built on local competition. County, provincial , All Ireland. Thats the system. The league is glorified pre season."
Some impressive crowds in the national hurling league despite being the "warm up competition" you call it. Crowds are voting with their feet.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9874 - 08/06/2026 11:23:39    2678629

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Wouldn't be so sure about that. The national hurling league is standalone and doing fine for what it is. With the history and tradition of provincial championships, as long as they keep their place in the calendar, I think they'd be ok. Irrelevant talk in hurling anyway as the Munster SHC is bringing in lot of money.

(Football is only one step away from standalone provincial championships after essentially having standalone finals this year. It seems however that the clamour to reward provincial winners might win out.)"
We'll have to agree to disagree, and we'll never find out who's right, because only way to get an answer would be to actually move to a system of National League - standalone provincial championships - start afresh with All-Ireland Championship. And I can't see that ever happening.

I really do believe though that if it did, it'd only be matter of time before the provincial championships would slip right down the pecking order. The traditional pomp and rivalry might sustain the Munster SHC in particular for a few years all right, but even that would be taken nowhere near as seriously after a few years.

Just suppose that three or four years in, Limerick & Cork are due to meet in a Munster Final but have also been drawn into the same group of the All-Ireland Championship and are due to meet again in the first round of that, a week or two later.

Do you really think both sides would bust a gut to win that Munster Final, or would it be more of the type of "shadow boxing" that you see when two teams meet in the League, a few weeks ahead of having to meet again in Championship?

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3778 - 08/06/2026 11:43:49    2678633

Link

Replying To Tadhg2020:  "Nonsense. The national hurling league is a warm up competition. You tried this over on the football thread. GAA is built on local competition. County, provincial , All Ireland. Thats the system. The league is glorified pre season."
Don't forget that the All-Ireland SHC was traditionally knockout and the All-Ireland Final was traditionally on the 1st Sunday in September. Galway traditionally entered the championship at the semi-final change bar 1959-69 when they competed in Munster.

As I pointed out in previous posts Galway are the cuckoo in the nest of Leinster Hurling. Ideally the future of the Leinster SHC would involve 6 Leinster teams and we need to try and build towards that goal. Galway's presence at underage and senior hinders the efforts to improve the standard of the Leinster minnows (Carlow, Kildare, Laois, Westmeath).

saorkick (Dublin) - Posts: 36 - 08/06/2026 12:23:16    2678642

Link

Replying To saorkick:  "Don't forget that the All-Ireland SHC was traditionally knockout and the All-Ireland Final was traditionally on the 1st Sunday in September. Galway traditionally entered the championship at the semi-final change bar 1959-69 when they competed in Munster.

As I pointed out in previous posts Galway are the cuckoo in the nest of Leinster Hurling. Ideally the future of the Leinster SHC would involve 6 Leinster teams and we need to try and build towards that goal. Galway's presence at underage and senior hinders the efforts to improve the standard of the Leinster minnows (Carlow, Kildare, Laois, Westmeath)."
Does it? How were those counties progressing before Galway entered the Leinster Championship?
Are you advocating for Galway going back to being parachuted straight into a semi-final?
Kildare are at a much higher level how than they were before Galway were in Leinster.
Their development has nothing to do with Galway either way.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2907 - 08/06/2026 13:49:56    2678673

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "We'll have to agree to disagree, and we'll never find out who's right, because only way to get an answer would be to actually move to a system of National League - standalone provincial championships - start afresh with All-Ireland Championship. And I can't see that ever happening.

I really do believe though that if it did, it'd only be matter of time before the provincial championships would slip right down the pecking order. The traditional pomp and rivalry might sustain the Munster SHC in particular for a few years all right, but even that would be taken nowhere near as seriously after a few years.

Just suppose that three or four years in, Limerick & Cork are due to meet in a Munster Final but have also been drawn into the same group of the All-Ireland Championship and are due to meet again in the first round of that, a week or two later.

Do you really think both sides would bust a gut to win that Munster Final, or would it be more of the type of "shadow boxing" that you see when two teams meet in the League, a few weeks ahead of having to meet again in Championship?"
Good point. Limerick and Cork produced a reasonable league final when they were meeting a few weeks later. From football this year, in the very unlikely scenario of Congress delegates agreeing to separate the provincials from the All Ireland - the All Ireland draw should take place after the provincial championships for the reason you outlined.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9874 - 08/06/2026 15:39:51    2678702

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Some impressive crowds in the national hurling league despite being the "warm up competition" you call it. Crowds are voting with their feet."
Nothing compared to the Munster Championship though. You conveniently left that part out.

Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 600 - 08/06/2026 18:43:22    2678726

Link

Replying To saorkick:  "Don't forget that the All-Ireland SHC was traditionally knockout and the All-Ireland Final was traditionally on the 1st Sunday in September. Galway traditionally entered the championship at the semi-final change bar 1959-69 when they competed in Munster.

As I pointed out in previous posts Galway are the cuckoo in the nest of Leinster Hurling. Ideally the future of the Leinster SHC would involve 6 Leinster teams and we need to try and build towards that goal. Galway's presence at underage and senior hinders the efforts to improve the standard of the Leinster minnows (Carlow, Kildare, Laois, Westmeath)."
If you want to reduce the leinster championship to a development competition that's fine. That will have repercussions when it comes to AI series qualification though.

Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 600 - 08/06/2026 18:45:05    2678727

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Good point. Limerick and Cork produced a reasonable league final when they were meeting a few weeks later. From football this year, in the very unlikely scenario of Congress delegates agreeing to separate the provincials from the All Ireland - the All Ireland draw should take place after the provincial championships for the reason you outlined."
I was at the game. Limerick were comfortable throughout. The result was never in doubt

Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 600 - 08/06/2026 18:47:50    2678728

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "...
Reading the opinions of the likes of a Carlow expert of Tom Mullally's knowledge...

Leinster could have 2 tiered groups of 4:
Top 4 in Group A - Leinster semi finalists from the previous year after year 1. Top 2 direct to semi finals with home advantage. 3rd at home v 2nd from Group B in quarter final and 1st from Group B at home v 4th from Group A in quarter final. 4th in Group B relegated unless spared by a non Leinster eligible county winning the Joe Mac."
Camogie AIC is along thise lines.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3458 - 19/06/2026 18:56:33    2680633

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Well if there are 2 groups of 4 - 4th placed teams into relegation final. Joe Mac winner promoted. 8 teams is the right balance IMHO. Not looking for expansion for the sake of expansion like.
Clare and Offaly have made the All Ireland quarter finals despite 2 losses. The All Ireland SFC format that was scrapped might suit Leinster hurling. Group winners direct semi finals. 2nd v 3rd in quarter finals. 4th in relegation final.
The All Ireland SFC format was scrapped because some counties were losing 2 games after a previous loss and were still in the championship after 3 losses in total. Leinster hurling having that format wouldn't be different to now where teams are still in the hurling championship after 2 losses, which seems to be more palatable.
With smart scheduling - if the top 2 seeds are pitted against each in round 3 - round 3 most likely would be the top 2 seeds playing off for the semi finals and the lower 2 seeds playing off for the quarter final, while also avoiding the relegation final."
As 'growing the game' is the goal, my preference is a
'Lein KO 9 & Muns KO 5' (Option Two) similar to what I wrote below for ease of presentation (Option One).

All teams play mixed-province, inter-group ties, encompassing all Prov 'KO ties', prior to AIC KO:

OPTION ONE
- Munster KO 5 & Leinster KO 5
- AIC with two groups of 5 (A & B)
- Groups 'formed', not drawn

- Muns QF loser to Group A, winner to B
- SF opponent of Muns QF winner to A
- Muns Finalists placed in opposite groups
- Muns SF losers to opposite groups
- There is a Muns trio in A & pair in B

- Lein QF winner to Group A, loser to B
- SF opponent of Lein QF winner to B
- Lein Finalists placed in opposite groups
- Lein SF losers to opposite groups
- There is a Lein pair in A & trio in B

- Merge to form two groups of 5 (A & B)
- Each team completes a 5-game inter-group
schedule, including all their Prov KO ties (1-3)
- Prov KO is 'winner on the day' (1 point each, if
drawn at full time)

- Top 6 advance to AIC KO from a combined 10-
team table
- Top 2 of 6 earn QF byes (not necessarily Prov
Champs)
- AIC KO targets 'intra-group ties' to avoid
repeat pairings
- QFs could be 3v6 & 4v5 (avoid repeat pairings,
if possible)
SFs could have 'seed 1 v lowest QF seed winner'
- All teams play in the last inter-group round, including
Prov Finals on June 6/7 [could be June 20/21, if AIC Finals
were flipped (football first) and played on opposite sides
of August bank holiday weekend)
- 10th relegated/McDonagh Cup Champ promoted

Or, alternatively (my preferred option):

OPTION TWO
- Target 'growing the game' (more 'Kildares')
- Consider 'Lein KO 9' (& Muns KO 5) instead
- Lein splits to a 'quartet & quintet'
- Merge 'Lein quartet & Muns trio' to AIC Group A
- Schedule '7v7' (reduce NHL, if necessary)
- 14th relegated/McDonagh Cup Champ promoted

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3458 - 19/06/2026 19:52:04    2680636

Link

Replying To omahant:  "Camogie AIC is along thise lines."
Might work for Leinster hurling too. Still doesn't address the issue of too few intercounty hurling games in the summer months though.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20048 - 19/06/2026 20:50:56    2680645

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "...
Reading the opinions of the likes of a Carlow expert of Tom Mullally's knowledge...

Leinster could have 2 tiered groups of 4:
Top 4 in Group A - Leinster semi finalists from the previous year after year 1. Top 2 direct to semi finals with home advantage. 3rd at home v 2nd from Group B in quarter final and 1st from Group B at home v 4th from Group A in quarter final. 4th in Group B relegated unless spared by a non Leinster eligible county winning the Joe Mac."
Just to reply to this one as well, since somebody else has just done so.

If you take this year's final standings as a guide (i.e. top four going to Group A, and next four going to Group B), then what you'd end up with for next year is:
Group A: Galway, Dublin, Offaly, Kilkenny
Group B: Wexford, Kildare, Laois, Carlow

Obvious flaw there is the idea of the eight-team, two-group system would be to provide more matches against top-tier opposition to the sort counties that would normally be Group B.

Under this system, they wouldn't get that. Two of them might only get one match like that. The other two wouldn't get one at all.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3778 - 19/06/2026 21:14:19    2680649

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "Just to reply to this one as well, since somebody else has just done so.

If you take this year's final standings as a guide (i.e. top four going to Group A, and next four going to Group B), then what you'd end up with for next year is:
Group A: Galway, Dublin, Offaly, Kilkenny
Group B: Wexford, Kildare, Laois, Carlow

Obvious flaw there is the idea of the eight-team, two-group system would be to provide more matches against top-tier opposition to the sort counties that would normally be Group B.

Under this system, they wouldn't get that. Two of them might only get one match like that. The other two wouldn't get one at all."
Yeah sure look it, early musing. Regular 2 groups of 4 but with 2nd v 3rd in quarter finals is what might be the approach. A Leinster matter. Not seeing much of a push in Laois, Kildare, Carlow or Westmeath for any expansion to 8 anyways. A matter for those counties to lobby for at the end of the day.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9874 - 20/06/2026 09:07:35    2680665

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Yeah sure look it, early musing. Regular 2 groups of 4 but with 2nd v 3rd in quarter finals is what might be the approach. A Leinster matter. Not seeing much of a push in Laois, Kildare, Carlow or Westmeath for any expansion to 8 anyways. A matter for those counties to lobby for at the end of the day."
No matter what changes if anything are made to the Leinster championship it still won't change the bigger issues.
25 games in the 1st 7 weeks with 11 teams involved.
9 games in the following 7 weeks with 6 teams involved. We meed more games/teams involved for that middle section of championship IMO. Say weeks 6 to 10.

Paull (Wexford) - Posts: 293 - 20/06/2026 11:43:49    2680682

Link

Replying To Paull:  "No matter what changes if anything are made to the Leinster championship it still won't change the bigger issues.
25 games in the 1st 7 weeks with 11 teams involved.
9 games in the following 7 weeks with 6 teams involved. We meed more games/teams involved for that middle section of championship IMO. Say weeks 6 to 10."
Leinster and Munster finals are 2 weeks after the group phase ends. All Ireland quarter finals are 2 weeks after the Leinster and Munster finals.
On purely numbers, if you had 8 preliminary quarter finalists and 8 quarter finalists - that is where you would maximise more games/teams involved in that middle section. From a competitiveness point of view there's no starting basis for it.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9874 - 20/06/2026 14:10:08    2680705

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Leinster and Munster finals are 2 weeks after the group phase ends. All Ireland quarter finals are 2 weeks after the Leinster and Munster finals.
On purely numbers, if you had 8 preliminary quarter finalists and 8 quarter finalists - that is where you would maximise more games/teams involved in that middle section. From a competitiveness point of view there's no starting basis for it."
I dont think you get it. The issue isnt the amount of games its when the games are played. People criticising the season format want the season stretched into the end of june at a minimum for the round robin with the knockout in July and stretching into August even. Its not going to happen because of the split season but that's what they want.

Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 600 - 21/06/2026 00:14:24    2680792

Link

Replying To Tadhg2020:  "I dont think you get it. The issue isnt the amount of games its when the games are played. People criticising the season format want the season stretched into the end of june at a minimum for the round robin with the knockout in July and stretching into August even. Its not going to happen because of the split season but that's what they want."
No, most of us dont want the intercounty season extended past when it ends.
We want there to be more hurling games later on in the current intercounty season, in the summer months, like Football have.
Why was the TC Cup final so early? Why not have an AI Round Robin, or a similar AI Series to the Football one?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20048 - 21/06/2026 08:24:37    2680809

Link

Replying To Tadhg2020:  "I dont think you get it. The issue isnt the amount of games its when the games are played. People criticising the season format want the season stretched into the end of june at a minimum for the round robin with the knockout in July and stretching into August even. Its not going to happen because of the split season but that's what they want."
You have a habit of jumping in without looking at the comment being responded to. "Say weeks 6 to 10."
Your lack of any regard for county players getting to the All Ireland club finals is shocking.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9874 - 21/06/2026 08:44:46    2680814

Link