|
Replying To legendzxix: "There is the fair point though that changes have been agreed upon. Cavan missed out on the 2023 All Ireland because Sligo benefitted from a lopsided draw. Down similarly missed out on the 2024 All Ireland because Clare benefitted from a lopsided draw. I'm not aware that Cavan or Down were looking for a solution around that.
A counter point I suppose is I don't hurling counties were pushing for the improved league structure. The GAA had to act due to the lack of jeopardy. If a bit more jeopardy needs to be added to the All Ireland qualification - will that come from the GAA HQ or county boards?" With all due respect to Cavan and Down, they were never going to win Sam Maguire in those seasons anyway, so that's not really a significant issue?
What is a far more significant issue is that your 'Sligos' and your 'Clares' acquire a 2nd seed status in the round robin draw, if they reach a provincial final after these provincial championships/lotto! draws. This has the effect of skewing the quality of the groups that these sides are drawn in, and skewing the quality of the groups that include the real no2 seeded sides who've been displaced as 2 seeds by these relatively weak provincial runner up sides. Unlike the Cavan/Down issue, this group skewing actually unfairly affects sides who are contenders to win the competition.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4059 - 10/04/2025 08:45:06
2601329
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "The 2026 format isn't a big leap from the 2023-2025 format. They must not be too fussed about the other flaws. Unless it is impracting on finances, they'll persist with it.
14 teams entering an All Ireland playoff for the 7 league spots would add 7 knockout games with jeopardy. It would spice up provincial rounds as well. Round 1 is currently played over two weekends. The All Ireland playoff could be the first weekend of that and all Round 1 games on the following weekend." I think if you're going down that route you kill tier 2.
You've so many open spaces, is there much value to getting that Tailteann cup win.
I think you're starting to go in the direction of the Previous qualifiers where division 4 teams were excluded unless they made a Provincial final.
If we zoom out a bit. Are any of these systems actually better than the previous All Ireland qualifiers system.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4457 - 10/04/2025 09:17:16
2601332
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "I think if you're going down that route you kill tier 2.
You've so many open spaces, is there much value to getting that Tailteann cup win.
I think you're starting to go in the direction of the Previous qualifiers where division 4 teams were excluded unless they made a Provincial final.
If we zoom out a bit. Are any of these systems actually better than the previous All Ireland qualifiers system." If a playoff or qualifiers are to be considered, that's something to teased out alright. I'd be in favour of playoff losers contesting the Tailteann, with the winner still rewarded All Ireland qualification for the next year. Counties outside the playoffs could contest Tier 3. The Tier 3 winner could be guaranteed an All Ireland playoff spot in the following year, meaning they at least compete in the Tailteann Cup.
If the Tailteann winner makes a provincial final, 16 teams can playoff for 8 league spots. That means 8 losers can contest the Tailteann Cup in either straight knockout or double elimination. If the Tailteann winner misses out on their provincial final, possibly 15 teams can playoff for 7 league spots. It means the lowest 2 would have to contest a preliminary playoff. There is still an even 8 teams falling at the playoff stage, preliminary included, meaning the Tailteann would always have 8 teams.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 10/04/2025 11:46:36
2601359
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "Personally I like to see a game with a bit of bite. Kerry and Cork are probably both qualified for the All Ireland. If winning the Munster semi final meant the winner was qualified for the All Ireland and the loser had to at least navigate a knockout playoff, it would add that ingredient of jeopardy." If teams advanced based on accumulating season-long match pts, there'd be plenty of jeopardy.
I know you're not a fan of 'doubling up' - but if that Kerry/Cork game awarded match pts, it would have more value.
Your dislike of 'doubling up' seems to be linked to that Munster SHC match a number of yrs ago that doubled as the hurling league final - so you feel it took shine off the league final.
BUT, in my AILC, if the Donegal/Derry Ulster SFC tie awarded league match pts, there's not much shine lost if the tie is primarily seen as Ulster SFC only - do you agree?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3185 - 10/04/2025 14:29:45
2601385
Link
0
|
|
I wonder if we zoomed out if there be a format similar to the one a few years ago that nearly go through that could work for the All Ireland and incorporate the Provincials.
So NFL as is 4 divisions of 8.
Provincials as is.
All Ireland Playoffs would include:
1st to 7th of division 1.
1st to 3rd of division 2.
Any non qualified Provincial champions.
The knockout round would have 10 to 14 teams.
6th in division would play 3rd in division 2 for both a place in the All Ireland quarterfinals and a place in the following season's division 1.
Similarly 7th in division 1 would play 2nd in division 2.
Top 2 in division 1 would definitely qualify for All Ireland quarterfinals.
A top 4 team that also won their Province should also be guaranteed a quarter final spot.
I think you could have a season that looked something like this to give Provincials some breathing space.
Week 1 NFL round 1 (4th Week of February)
Week 2 NFL round 2
Week 3 Break
Week 4 NFL round 3
Week 5 Break
Week 6 Provincials
Week 7 Provincials
Week 8 Break
Week 9 NFL round 4
Week 10 NFL round 5
Week 11 break
Week 12 Provincials
Week 13 Provincials
Week 14 Break
Week 15 NFL 6
Week 16 NFL 7
Week 18 Break
Week 19 All Ireland Playoffs
Week 20 All Ireland quarterfinals
Week 21 Break
Week 22 All Ireland semifinals
Week 23 Break
Week 24 All Ireland final (August Bank Holiday weekend?)
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4457 - 10/04/2025 14:32:22
2601386
Link
1
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "I wouldn't have your confidence that this is a long term solution, given the number of tweaks we've had in recent years.
I'd love for us to have a more settled solution but to be honest it's very easy to see plenty of flaws that will persist through the to the 2026 Championship." "Settled" should be your '2 groups of 8' or my AILC.
Incorporating match pts from Prov SFC makes those ties more important to win - especially if Donegal wins Ulster after 4 tough games.
Why should Donegal start the AIC at ground zero like less successful teams after all those efforts?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3185 - 10/04/2025 14:38:46
2601388
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: "If teams advanced based on accumulating season-long match pts, there'd be plenty of jeopardy.
I know you're not a fan of 'doubling up' - but if that Kerry/Cork game awarded match pts, it would have more value.
Your dislike of 'doubling up' seems to be linked to that Munster SHC match a number of yrs ago that doubled as the hurling league final - so you feel it took shine off the league final.
BUT, in my AILC, if the Donegal/Derry Ulster SFC tie awarded league match pts, there's not much shine lost if the tie is primarily seen as Ulster SFC only - do you agree?" I'm not enthused by the doubling up. County leagues and the National League serve a purpose. I think some few counties use the league for championship seeding. That's a way for a subtle link without the doubling up scenario that I cannot honestly see gaining any traction.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 10/04/2025 21:08:02
2601440
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "I wonder if we zoomed out if there be a format similar to the one a few years ago that nearly go through that could work for the All Ireland and incorporate the Provincials.
So NFL as is 4 divisions of 8.
Provincials as is.
All Ireland Playoffs would include:
1st to 7th of division 1.
1st to 3rd of division 2.
Any non qualified Provincial champions.
The knockout round would have 10 to 14 teams.
6th in division would play 3rd in division 2 for both a place in the All Ireland quarterfinals and a place in the following season's division 1.
Similarly 7th in division 1 would play 2nd in division 2.
Top 2 in division 1 would definitely qualify for All Ireland quarterfinals.
A top 4 team that also won their Province should also be guaranteed a quarter final spot.
I think you could have a season that looked something like this to give Provincials some breathing space.
Week 1 NFL round 1 (4th Week of February)
Week 2 NFL round 2
Week 3 Break
Week 4 NFL round 3
Week 5 Break
Week 6 Provincials
Week 7 Provincials
Week 8 Break
Week 9 NFL round 4
Week 10 NFL round 5
Week 11 break
Week 12 Provincials
Week 13 Provincials
Week 14 Break
Week 15 NFL 6
Week 16 NFL 7
Week 18 Break
Week 19 All Ireland Playoffs
Week 20 All Ireland quarterfinals
Week 21 Break
Week 22 All Ireland semifinals
Week 23 Break
Week 24 All Ireland final (August Bank Holiday weekend?)" There are aspects of that worth considering IMHO. Realistically I think you'd still have to have league first and then provincials. The Munster and Connacht finalists need to be playing at most 4 weeks later.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 10/04/2025 21:15:12
2601442
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "I'm not enthused by the doubling up. County leagues and the National League serve a purpose. I think some few counties use the league for championship seeding. That's a way for a subtle link without the doubling up scenario that I cannot honestly see gaining any traction." "Gaining any traction" - I'm not a politician, but if I was - I have two clear choices - 1) do what's popular and get something done; or 2) follow what I believe in, regardless of popularity.
There are politicians that take either track - both feasible.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3185 - 10/04/2025 23:10:01
2601459
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "There are aspects of that worth considering IMHO. Realistically I think you'd still have to have league first and then provincials. The Munster and Connacht finalists need to be playing at most 4 weeks later." League first and the Provincials so that division 3 and 4 teams aren't out of the All Ireland early?
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4457 - 11/04/2025 06:40:54
2601466
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "League first and the Provincials so that division 3 and 4 teams aren't out of the All Ireland early?" League followed by provincials doesn't look like changing. If Kerry and Cork must continue to meet in Munster semi finals due to lopsided draws, there should be some jeopardy to add an edge.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 11/04/2025 21:36:27
2601547
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "League followed by provincials doesn't look like changing. If Kerry and Cork must continue to meet in Munster semi finals due to lopsided draws, there should be some jeopardy to add an edge." Biggest issue with using provincial will always be the lopsided nature and competitive problems.
Munster only has six and five of them prioritise hurling
Connacht has 7 teans
Ulster 9
Leinster, Dublin are too good rn and that still doesn't look like ending
Simple solution
One Ulster team on rotation goes to Connacht annually
One Leinster side on rotation goes to Munster
Dublin for three years go into Munster and get no home games
Result
Easier to structure
Even amount of games played by all
Leinster teams can build confidence in non juggernaut 3 years and Leinster is super competitive
Kerry and Dublin no longer on the doss until All Ireland stage
Dublin fans on tour in big stadiums that can easily accomdate them
Ps I know we would still technically have 9 in Leinster, you could remove NY and move another Leinster side like Westmeath to Connacht but I'd make 8v9 meet based on league placing.
shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 298 - 12/04/2025 11:03:46
2601566
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "League followed by provincials doesn't look like changing. If Kerry and Cork must continue to meet in Munster semi finals due to lopsided draws, there should be some jeopardy to add an edge." I guess there'd be less jeopardy though if Kerry already knew they were qualified for a quarterfinal.
I think if the season was tight that you could start the league in March and not have Provincials starting until April.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4457 - 12/04/2025 12:00:46
2601567
Link
0
|
|
Leaving the league as is, adding a week off and then provincial championships... it is still possible to go with 2 groups as 6 with the inter county season extending by two weeks into August.
2nd and 3rd into quarter finals. Group winners taking on quarter final winners in the semi finals. With good scheduling, All Ireland quarter finals can pair up with Tailteann semi finals for double headers.
For reward and jeopardy in the 2 groups of 6: The top 3 from both groups can automatically qualify for the following year (6 teams qualified). 4th and 5th from both groups could enter a 4 team knockout playoff for the 7th qualifier spot. The Tailteann winner taking the 8th qualifying spot. 4 places remain for the provincial winners in the next year. If there is any duplication of qualifying, the league can provide wildcards. The league can also be used for seeding provincial winners 1 to 4 and the rest 5 to 12 for the group stage draw.
The Tailteann and a Tier 3 would suit 2 groups of 5 with the top 2 going direct to semi finals. If provincial runners up were guaranteed at least a Tailteann place, Tier 3 can start a week or two earlier allowing for some inclusion of New York and also the Tier 3 semi finals being in Croke Park the weekend before the All Ireland quarter finals.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 12/04/2025 12:35:27
2601571
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "Leaving the league as is, adding a week off and then provincial championships... it is still possible to go with 2 groups as 6 with the inter county season extending by two weeks into August.
2nd and 3rd into quarter finals. Group winners taking on quarter final winners in the semi finals. With good scheduling, All Ireland quarter finals can pair up with Tailteann semi finals for double headers.
For reward and jeopardy in the 2 groups of 6: The top 3 from both groups can automatically qualify for the following year (6 teams qualified). 4th and 5th from both groups could enter a 4 team knockout playoff for the 7th qualifier spot. The Tailteann winner taking the 8th qualifying spot. 4 places remain for the provincial winners in the next year. If there is any duplication of qualifying, the league can provide wildcards. The league can also be used for seeding provincial winners 1 to 4 and the rest 5 to 12 for the group stage draw.
The Tailteann and a Tier 3 would suit 2 groups of 5 with the top 2 going direct to semi finals. If provincial runners up were guaranteed at least a Tailteann place, Tier 3 can start a week or two earlier allowing for some inclusion of New York and also the Tier 3 semi finals being in Croke Park the weekend before the All Ireland quarter finals." I'm a broken record I know but the league in some form just needs to be the championship.
I think it's a waste of potentially great match ups for them not to be properly meaningful.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4457 - 12/04/2025 15:31:42
2601583
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "I'm a broken record I know but the league in some form just needs to be the championship.
I think it's a waste of potentially great match ups for them not to be properly meaningful." Some broken records are good -
yup, marquee matchups between the best sides is the way to go, just like EPL, UCL, URC, NFL, AFL etc- your 7 league games + Prov KO, or my combined AILC 10 (or 12), leading to short concluding KO.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3185 - 12/04/2025 18:41:54
2601609
Link
0
|
|
@shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 297 - 12/04/2025
I had a broader similar idea:
- Each Prov 'top 4' play 'double chance' Prov Prelim SFs.
- Two PSF winners to 'own Prov SFs'; two PSF losers to 'neighbouring Prov KO QFs' (each loser to different Prov).
- All 'non-top 4' teams play for two 'own Prov' QF berths.
So, each 'Prov Last 6' has two SF byes (PSF winners) and
two QFs (own Prov team v Guest in each tie).
Total of 8 switch Provs, 25 do not.
Four Prov Champs to AI SFs (could include some 'Foreign' Champs, what mischief).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3185 - 12/04/2025 19:01:39
2601611
Link
0
|
|
Why can't the Gaa just go back to the club system of Senior, Intermediate & Junior All Ireland Championships for inter county everyone would be happy with that have 12 teams in Senior 12 Intermediate & 8 in Junior if your good enough to win a Junior then move up to Intermediate & win that you will be well prepared for Senior championship & there won't be as much hammering's teams would be playing at there level & have the 3 finals on All Ireland weekend Junior & Intermediate on Saturday followed by going back to a Minor All Ireland followed by Senior All Ireland Final would be a festival off football & lower teams would get to play same weekend as Senior All Ireland Final in Croker would be great crowds from them smaller counties up in Dublin for that weekend!
Manutd1993 (Longford) - Posts: 2 - 13/04/2025 07:44:13
2601659
Link
2
|
|
Replying To Manutd1993: "Why can't the Gaa just go back to the club system of Senior, Intermediate & Junior All Ireland Championships for inter county everyone would be happy with that have 12 teams in Senior 12 Intermediate & 8 in Junior if your good enough to win a Junior then move up to Intermediate & win that you will be well prepared for Senior championship & there won't be as much hammering's teams would be playing at there level & have the 3 finals on All Ireland weekend Junior & Intermediate on Saturday followed by going back to a Minor All Ireland followed by Senior All Ireland Final would be a festival off football & lower teams would get to play same weekend as Senior All Ireland Final in Croker would be great crowds from them smaller counties up in Dublin for that weekend!" Something like that would be great too.
It'd just require getting rid of the provincials though and that's the stumbling block.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4457 - 13/04/2025 11:04:09
2601670
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Manutd1993: "Why can't the Gaa just go back to the club system of Senior, Intermediate & Junior All Ireland Championships for inter county everyone would be happy with that have 12 teams in Senior 12 Intermediate & 8 in Junior if your good enough to win a Junior then move up to Intermediate & win that you will be well prepared for Senior championship & there won't be as much hammering's teams would be playing at there level & have the 3 finals on All Ireland weekend Junior & Intermediate on Saturday followed by going back to a Minor All Ireland followed by Senior All Ireland Final would be a festival off football & lower teams would get to play same weekend as Senior All Ireland Final in Croker would be great crowds from them smaller counties up in Dublin for that weekend!" Agree with all except putting the Minor on with the Senior.
Only a few hundred people from the Minor finalists will get to see their team at €100 each.
Hurling, Camogie, LGFA, and every Co Board have graded Championships with promotion/relegation.
The one "outlier" is men's football with a half baked, complicated 2 tier effort.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2218 - 13/04/2025 11:06:57
2601671
Link
1
|