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Replying To legendzxix: "Michael Murphy was making the point on GAAGO last year that the provincial championships seem a drop in standard after the league. Hard to argue with that. He was singing from the same hymn sheet as Eamonn Fitzmaurice calling for provincial championships before league. As I've said though that will be harsh on the likes of the Errigal Ciaran contingent who missed the early rounds of the league.
At least Ulster has provincial finals fitting of the occasion. Connacht has competitive too unless the better 3 are on the same side of the draw. The lopsided Munster draws are presenting low key finals." The season starting later or the National Leagues being decoupled from the All Ireland and being played alongside the conclusion of the club championship needs to be looked at.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4457 - 03/04/2025 12:36:34
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Derry were relegated from Division 1 without a win and have lost in the Ulster first round. Despite not winning a game in league and championship, they will very likely qualify for the All Ireland series! Where is the jeopardy in that??!!
There should be some form of playoff at the very least for the non provincial finalists. 14 teams playing off for the 7 league qualifier spots. Derry could draw a Division 3 opponent in the playoff and it could be a routine win but at least they would have to at the very least win one match!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 06/04/2025 15:48:21
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Replying To legendzxix: "Derry were relegated from Division 1 without a win and have lost in the Ulster first round. Despite not winning a game in league and championship, they will very likely qualify for the All Ireland series! Where is the jeopardy in that??!!
There should be some form of playoff at the very least for the non provincial finalists. 14 teams playing off for the 7 league qualifier spots. Derry could draw a Division 3 opponent in the playoff and it could be a routine win but at least they would have to at the very least win one match!" 100%
As a Donegal fan I was watching a game wondering should we really want to win this game. Win and we have three more tough games to end up where Derry are now come June. They could head off now on a training camp if they want and fresh for the business end of championship.
Donegal need a very strong panel for the championship. It's a bit of a farce.
Jimmy will want Ulster but that's 4 tough games then three group games before three or four more matches to All Ireland.
Nearly impossible we don't lose 1 or 2 big players before any Croke Park days out.
And most of all it devalues Ulster for me. Ulster champions should qualify for All Ireland Quarter Finals. Period.
Dream up whatever changes you want but unless provincials move to before league, this system is a joke.
We have 1 and a half strong provincial championships. We need to find something more symmetrical and fair for teams and cherish the championship more. Feels like we have ruined the league and provinces now and then all Ireland feels like a blitz in final weeks.
shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 298 - 06/04/2025 16:30:49
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Replying To legendzxix: "Derry were relegated from Division 1 without a win and have lost in the Ulster first round. Despite not winning a game in league and championship, they will very likely qualify for the All Ireland series! Where is the jeopardy in that??!!
There should be some form of playoff at the very least for the non provincial finalists. 14 teams playing off for the 7 league qualifier spots. Derry could draw a Division 3 opponent in the playoff and it could be a routine win but at least they would have to at the very least win one match!" And Wexford win 7 and can't improve on TC.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3185 - 06/04/2025 22:32:54
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@shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 295 - 06/04/2025
That's why I'm for awarding match pts for Prov KO ties (own 16 only) and using them as group/league ties.
So, Donegal wins Ulster - picks up 6-8 pts - and then the non-Ulster teams have to play those Ulster sides for league-only match pts as well.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3185 - 06/04/2025 22:38:29
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Replying To shaggykev: "100%
As a Donegal fan I was watching a game wondering should we really want to win this game. Win and we have three more tough games to end up where Derry are now come June. They could head off now on a training camp if they want and fresh for the business end of championship.
Donegal need a very strong panel for the championship. It's a bit of a farce.
Jimmy will want Ulster but that's 4 tough games then three group games before three or four more matches to All Ireland.
Nearly impossible we don't lose 1 or 2 big players before any Croke Park days out.
And most of all it devalues Ulster for me. Ulster champions should qualify for All Ireland Quarter Finals. Period.
Dream up whatever changes you want but unless provincials move to before league, this system is a joke.
We have 1 and a half strong provincial championships. We need to find something more symmetrical and fair for teams and cherish the championship more. Feels like we have ruined the league and provinces now and then all Ireland feels like a blitz in final weeks." Yesterday was straight forward due to Derry's injuries, one of the remaining games is Down/Fermanagh, so its not 4 tough games really.
Two weeks rest before Monaghan, then rotate the team for the Down/Fermanagh game. So the key players will be well rested between Monaghan match and Ulster final - with a chance for a handy draw in the group stage.
The biggest problem is that Donegal were clearly starting with an earlier peak, and they are trying to keep their team at a high level than others.
Armagh, Tyrone, Kerry, Dublin, Galway and Mayo have all been working to a later peak, with a shorter period to maintain that level.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1290 - 07/04/2025 08:52:02
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Replying To omahant: "And Wexford win 7 and can't improve on TC." Well they could have improved on a Tailteann spot through Leinster but they were knocked out by Laois. The qualifiers had knockout jeopardy on the road to All Ireland qualification. That jeopardy is missing from the current All Ireland qualification.
The best 7 from league could playoff against the next 7. Noone would qualify then until they win a provincial semi final or a playoff, with the exception of the Tailteann winner.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 07/04/2025 13:34:34
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Replying To legendzxix: "Well they could have improved on a Tailteann spot through Leinster but they were knocked out by Laois. The qualifiers had knockout jeopardy on the road to All Ireland qualification. That jeopardy is missing from the current All Ireland qualification.
The best 7 from league could playoff against the next 7. Noone would qualify then until they win a provincial semi final or a playoff, with the exception of the Tailteann winner." The disadvantage that caught Wexford couldn't be resolved by adding more fixtures to the calendar, rather the opposite. Wexford were playing for the 6th weekend in a row, whereas Laois were playing their 4th in 6 weeks, and crucially had a week break before their Leinster match-up.
Regardless of league performance, the seeded Munster teams will never have to deal with a short turnaround leading into their first provincial game (which is always a semi-final, and 50% of the time against a Division 4 opponent). Tipperary had two weeks to prepare for the weakest team in the country (Waterford) and now have two weeks to prepare for their game with Div 3 Clare in which a win would guarantee a second seeding for the Sam Maguire group stage.
Even if Wexford went out and battled their way to the Leinster final seeing off Laois, Louth, and Kildare/Westmeath, they would enter the All-Ireland series battered and bruised with 10W 2L to their name, and find the winners of Clare/Tipp seeded the same as them with 6W 3L (if Clare) or 4W 1D 5L (if Tipp).
It doesn't matter if provincials are before or after league. What matters is that the strength and size of provincial championships needs to be better reflected when the All-Ireland stages commence.
SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 450 - 08/04/2025 17:58:41
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The round robin draw seedings should be derived directly from that seasons closing NFL tables, and should have no relationship whatsoever to the provincial championships.
Alternatively, if we insist on a provincial connection in the round robin draw, it should be provincial champions claiming the 1 seeds, and remaining seeds relate to closing NFL tables.
'3rd and 4th seed teams' have been claiming 2nd seed ranking in these flawed draws to date, due to the weakness of the Leinster and Munster football championships, and the inflated seeding that often will attach to the provincial runner-up of these two championships, because 'luck of the draw' is still an integral part of these provincial championship draws.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4059 - 08/04/2025 21:48:56
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Replying To SurelyToGod: "The disadvantage that caught Wexford couldn't be resolved by adding more fixtures to the calendar, rather the opposite. Wexford were playing for the 6th weekend in a row, whereas Laois were playing their 4th in 6 weeks, and crucially had a week break before their Leinster match-up.
Regardless of league performance, the seeded Munster teams will never have to deal with a short turnaround leading into their first provincial game (which is always a semi-final, and 50% of the time against a Division 4 opponent). Tipperary had two weeks to prepare for the weakest team in the country (Waterford) and now have two weeks to prepare for their game with Div 3 Clare in which a win would guarantee a second seeding for the Sam Maguire group stage.
Even if Wexford went out and battled their way to the Leinster final seeing off Laois, Louth, and Kildare/Westmeath, they would enter the All-Ireland series battered and bruised with 10W 2L to their name, and find the winners of Clare/Tipp seeded the same as them with 6W 3L (if Clare) or 4W 1D 5L (if Tipp).
It doesn't matter if provincials are before or after league. What matters is that the strength and size of provincial championships needs to be better reflected when the All-Ireland stages commence." Yes this has to be the central tennet of any further plans to improve championship.
Quantity of games and quality of opposition and current provinces cannot fulfil that.
Kerry had a lack of games v poor teams so complained of coming to Croke Park cold whereas Ulster teams are in dogfights.
Giving them three group gamed makes sense. Giving a team that wins four Ulster games the same starting as potentially the three teams they beat and Kerry does not.
Current system is a bigger farce that any previous iteration or idea.
shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 298 - 08/04/2025 22:15:03
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Replying To SurelyToGod: "The disadvantage that caught Wexford couldn't be resolved by adding more fixtures to the calendar, rather the opposite. Wexford were playing for the 6th weekend in a row, whereas Laois were playing their 4th in 6 weeks, and crucially had a week break before their Leinster match-up.
Regardless of league performance, the seeded Munster teams will never have to deal with a short turnaround leading into their first provincial game (which is always a semi-final, and 50% of the time against a Division 4 opponent). Tipperary had two weeks to prepare for the weakest team in the country (Waterford) and now have two weeks to prepare for their game with Div 3 Clare in which a win would guarantee a second seeding for the Sam Maguire group stage.
Even if Wexford went out and battled their way to the Leinster final seeing off Laois, Louth, and Kildare/Westmeath, they would enter the All-Ireland series battered and bruised with 10W 2L to their name, and find the winners of Clare/Tipp seeded the same as them with 6W 3L (if Clare) or 4W 1D 5L (if Tipp).
It doesn't matter if provincials are before or after league. What matters is that the strength and size of provincial championships needs to be better reflected when the All-Ireland stages commence." Is the strength of a province already recognised? Donegal, Armagh, Monaghan, Tyrone, Derry and Cavan will qualify for the All Ireland. Down qualify as Tailteann winners. 3 Munster, 3 Connacht and 3 Leinster are likely to join them. The controversial one will probably be Clare qualifying ahead of Offaly.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 08/04/2025 22:37:13
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Does this not address the various issues raised:
All-Ireland League-Championship (AILC) -
'Two-tier' league structure, encompassing Provincial KO ties, within a 'Swiss Model' match schedule, leading to a short concluding 'three-tier' AIC Series.
Two Options:
OPTION ONE
- Two league tiers of 16
- Prov KO ties 'double as league ties' (all 4 Prov rds, intra-tier only); any tier-crossover ties (Tier 1v2) are Prov KO only
- Play Prov Prelim & QF Rds early (1st half Feb); defer SFs (end Apr) & Finals (2nd half May)
- After Prov QFs, draw '4 groups of 4' in each tier
(4 seeding pots of 4)
- Each group is limited to 'no more than one' Prov SF team from each province
- 12-match Regular Season (URC schedule, less 'intra-group' ties - i.e. play other 12), with all 'intra-tier' Prov ties included in the 12
- Teams ranked 1-16 & 17-32, based on 12-match/ 16-team tables, advance to 'three-tier' AIC for Sam, Shield & Plate
- Teams placed 1 & 17 win "League 1" & "League 2"
- Top 8 to AI Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to AI Shield KO; 21-28 to AI Plate KO (or Tailteann Cup); and 29-32 do not advance
- Prov Champs advance based on League placing (no Sam berth guarantee)
- 'Shield QF 8' earn/retain Tier 1 status the next year
(after PQFs: 11,12,13,14 host 20,19,16,15; and
QFs: 9,10,17,18 host PQF 'reverse seed' winners).
Or, alternatively:
OPTION TWO
10-match Regular Season, same as "Option One", with the following changes:
- After Prov QFs, draw groups of 6, 5 & 5 in each tier
- 10-match schedule (6 v both 5s; each 5 v own round-robin group), with all 'intra-tier' Prov ties included in the 10
- To schedule all potential 'intra-tier' Prov Finals, SF teams from the 'same province' are either:
a) all drawn to 'one Group of 5' (not both); or
b) split between 'one Group of 5 & the Group of 6'
(i.e. as the 'Group of 6' only plays group crossover ties, it should not contain both Prov Final teams).
______
CALENDAR
Week Activity
-2 (mid Jan) Start of '2-3 game' Pre-Season
0 (end of Jan) End of Pre-Season Warm-Up
1 (start of Feb) Prov SFC Prelim Rd
2 Prov SFC QFs
2 (after QFs) AILC Draw (2 tiers of 4x4 or 6,5,5)
2 (after Draw) Prelim/QF 'intra-tier' ties to tables
3 Bye Week
4 (end of Feb) First Full Regular Season Rd
12 (end of Apr) Rd includes all 8 Prov SFs
16 & 17 (end of May) Rds include 4 Prov Finals
20 Last Regular Season Rd
21 (end of June) Bye Week
22 AIC PSFs/PQFs, AI Shield PQFs & AI Plate QFs
23 AIC QFs & AI Shield QFs
24 AI Plate SFs
25 (end of July) AIC SFs & AI Shield SFs
26 AI Plate Final
27 (2nd week of Aug) AIC Final & AI Shield Final
Note - As each team plays 12 (or 10) 'staggered' regular season games in Weeks 1-20 and '0 to 4' AI/post-season games in Weeks 22-27, 'off weeks' provide sufficient rest.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3185 - 09/04/2025 03:36:42
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Title is new format 2026 All Ireland.
That has been voted in.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2218 - 09/04/2025 09:16:04
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Title is new format 2026 All Ireland.
That has been voted in." It sure has. Probably will be the format for the foreseeable future. Only likely change is a Tier 3 if it gains traction.
The current All Ireland qualification lacks jeopardy during the provincial championships. Galway and Roscommon more or less already qualified. Same goes for Tyrone v Cavan, Kerry v Cork and Donegal v Monaghan. They could look at tweaking the All Ireland qualification part while keeping the new format in place.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 09/04/2025 12:08:50
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Title is new format 2026 All Ireland.
That has been voted in." Just addressing the valid weaknesses raised in this thread - not all following the title either.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3185 - 09/04/2025 12:35:43
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Replying To omahant: "Just addressing the valid weaknesses raised in this thread - not all following the title either." There is the fair point though that changes have been agreed upon. Cavan missed out on the 2023 All Ireland because Sligo benefitted from a lopsided draw. Down similarly missed out on the 2024 All Ireland because Clare benefitted from a lopsided draw. I'm not aware that Cavan or Down were looking for a solution around that.
A counter point I suppose is I don't hurling counties were pushing for the improved league structure. The GAA had to act due to the lack of jeopardy. If a bit more jeopardy needs to be added to the All Ireland qualification - will that come from the GAA HQ or county boards?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 09/04/2025 13:23:29
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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8658 - 09/04/2025
"Changes have been agreed to" - yes, I agree - but that doesn't mean it's "permanently settled" - that one sits on one's hands and stops advocating for what one believes in.
Otherwise, it's Trump forever.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3185 - 09/04/2025 15:02:40
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Replying To omahant: "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8658 - 09/04/2025
"Changes have been agreed to" - yes, I agree - but that doesn't mean it's "permanently settled" - that one sits on one's hands and stops advocating for what one believes in.
Otherwise, it's Trump forever." Personally I like to see a game with a bit of bite. Kerry and Cork are probably both qualified for the All Ireland. If winning the Munster semi final meant the winner was qualified for the All Ireland and the loser had to at least navigate a knockout playoff, it would add that ingredient of jeopardy.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 09/04/2025 16:10:57
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Replying To legendzxix: "It sure has. Probably will be the format for the foreseeable future. Only likely change is a Tier 3 if it gains traction.
The current All Ireland qualification lacks jeopardy during the provincial championships. Galway and Roscommon more or less already qualified. Same goes for Tyrone v Cavan, Kerry v Cork and Donegal v Monaghan. They could look at tweaking the All Ireland qualification part while keeping the new format in place." I wouldn't have your confidence that this is a long term solution, given the number of tweaks we've had in recent years.
I'd love for us to have a more settled solution but to be honest it's very easy to see plenty of flaws that will persist through the to the 2026 Championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4457 - 09/04/2025 16:31:28
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Replying To Whammo86: "I wouldn't have your confidence that this is a long term solution, given the number of tweaks we've had in recent years.
I'd love for us to have a more settled solution but to be honest it's very easy to see plenty of flaws that will persist through the to the 2026 Championship." The 2026 format isn't a big leap from the 2023-2025 format. They must not be too fussed about the other flaws. Unless it is impracting on finances, they'll persist with it.
14 teams entering an All Ireland playoff for the 7 league spots would add 7 knockout games with jeopardy. It would spice up provincial rounds as well. Round 1 is currently played over two weekends. The All Ireland playoff could be the first weekend of that and all Round 1 games on the following weekend.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8679 - 09/04/2025 19:25:12
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