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Replying To zinny: " Replying To Pikeman96: "I notice that the statement from Wexford GAA includes this bit:
Furthermore, during the course of extra time, there was no evidence of any score being cancelled or disallowed by the referee and/or his officials.
Crossing the flags is supposed to happen if a "point" is being disallowed, same as a goal. So I'm taking it to mean that the video didn't show flags being crossed. Which then means that if the referee says he overruled a "point", but he didn't tell the umpires to cross the flags to signify this, he's in a way saying "I didn't perform my duties properly".
No idea how that stuff from the referee ended up with that Sports News Ireland Twitter account, but I believe there are a couple of Wexford lads involved with Sports News Ireland. They'd also be involved with GAA, but wouldn't be County Board officers or members of the CCC. Possible that they got the thing directly from the referee, because I don't see who else would have it.
Haven't heard anything about how other refs feel about the whole thing." The referee has the power to determine if it was a point or not and he does not need to consult with the umpires. The crossing of the flags relate to the umpires and their duties in respect to their decisions. There is a disconnect in the rules - the referee has the duty to keep the score, the power to overrule the umpire but in doing that he is not obliged to consult with the umpire or tell them to overrule their decision and therefore cross the flags. Of course that may be what should be intended but its not what is written"
Likewise if they don't give a point and the referee overrules them he instructs them to put up a flag. They then wave it.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 15/10/2024 17:07:43
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"...the referee has the duty to keep the score, the power to overrule the umpire but in doing that he is not obliged to consult with the umpire or tell them to overrule their decision and therefore cross the flags. Of course that may be what should be intended but its not what is written"
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1887 - 15/10/2024 16:16:47 2575108
That's ridiculous. A referee can overall a score without telling anyone? So no one, umpires, scoreboard attendants, the crowd, know what the real score is, except for the the referee.
Another point. There would have been several minutes between the end of extra-time and the start of the penalties. Did anyone, in that time, approach the referee and tell him that he'd got the score wrong?
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2654 - 15/10/2024 19:54:52
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Replying To Viking66: " Replying To zinny: "[quote=Pikeman96: "I notice that the statement from Wexford GAA includes this bit:
Furthermore, during the course of extra time, there was no evidence of any score being cancelled or disallowed by the referee and/or his officials.
Crossing the flags is supposed to happen if a "point" is being disallowed, same as a goal. So I'm taking it to mean that the video didn't show flags being crossed. Which then means that if the referee says he overruled a "point", but he didn't tell the umpires to cross the flags to signify this, he's in a way saying "I didn't perform my duties properly".
No idea how that stuff from the referee ended up with that Sports News Ireland Twitter account, but I believe there are a couple of Wexford lads involved with Sports News Ireland. They'd also be involved with GAA, but wouldn't be County Board officers or members of the CCC. Possible that they got the thing directly from the referee, because I don't see who else would have it.
Haven't heard anything about how other refs feel about the whole thing." The referee has the power to determine if it was a point or not and he does not need to consult with the umpires. The crossing of the flags relate to the umpires and their duties in respect to their decisions. There is a disconnect in the rules - the referee has the duty to keep the score, the power to overrule the umpire but in doing that he is not obliged to consult with the umpire or tell them to overrule their decision and therefore cross the flags. Of course that may be what should be intended but its not what is written"
Likewise if they don't give a point and the referee overrules them he instructs them to put up a flag. They then wave it."]Is this the first time that a GAA match result was over turned?
We have a lots of examples of points waved wide and balls that crossed the goal line not given...........even at intercounty level with lots of different camera angles.
Remember Waterford's Austin Gleeson goal line catch......that decision put Waterford out of the championship.
WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 474 - 15/10/2024 21:06:35
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Replying To Viking66: "If an umpire puts up a flag and the referee over rules him, the 2 umpires have to stand under the bar and cross their flags." Your meant to have the lines on the pitch marked aswell....
WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 474 - 15/10/2024 21:10:19
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""...the referee has the duty to keep the score, the power to overrule the umpire but in doing that he is not obliged to consult with the umpire or tell them to overrule their decision and therefore cross the flags. Of course that may be what should be intended but its not what is written"
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1887 - 15/10/2024 16:16:47 2575108
That's ridiculous. A referee can overall a score without telling anyone? So no one, umpires, scoreboard attendants, the crowd, know what the real score is, except for the the referee.
Another point. There would have been several minutes between the end of extra-time and the start of the penalties. Did anyone, in that time, approach the referee and tell him that he'd got the score wrong?" Yes, one of the linesmen.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 15/10/2024 22:05:14
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Replying To Viking66: "If an umpire puts up a flag and the referee over rules him, the 2 umpires have to stand under the bar and cross their flags." I've only ever seen this used to disallow a goal from a square ball..........its obvious a goal was scored and its been disallowed.
Anytime a referee would over rule an umpire he would simply ask the umpire to signal for a wide......as in this case he is not disallowing a score, he's saying that it wasn't a score in the first place as it was wide.
The rule states: A decision to disallow a score by crossing the flags at the centre of the scoring space.
WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 474 - 15/10/2024 22:12:51
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Replying To WEX98: "I've only ever seen this used to disallow a goal from a square ball..........its obvious a goal was scored and its been disallowed.
Anytime a referee would over rule an umpire he would simply ask the umpire to signal for a wide......as in this case he is not disallowing a score, he's saying that it wasn't a score in the first place as it was wide.
The rule states: A decision to disallow a score by crossing the flags at the centre of the scoring space." He didn't do either in this case. No crossed flags. No signal wide from the umpires.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 16/10/2024 08:02:41
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Replying To WEX98: "I've only ever seen this used to disallow a goal from a square ball..........its obvious a goal was scored and its been disallowed.
Anytime a referee would over rule an umpire he would simply ask the umpire to signal for a wide......as in this case he is not disallowing a score, he's saying that it wasn't a score in the first place as it was wide.
The rule states: A decision to disallow a score by crossing the flags at the centre of the scoring space." He didn't indicate it was wide himself either.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 16/10/2024 08:03:57
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I see we are now making u-16's warm up in car parks using car lights as floodlights before co finals? This Co Board is at rock bottom.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 16/10/2024 08:58:09
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Replying To WEX98: "I've only ever seen this used to disallow a goal from a square ball..........its obvious a goal was scored and its been disallowed.
Anytime a referee would over rule an umpire he would simply ask the umpire to signal for a wide......as in this case he is not disallowing a score, he's saying that it wasn't a score in the first place as it was wide.
The rule states: A decision to disallow a score by crossing the flags at the centre of the scoring space." With regard to your last line - am not sure that's actually a rule. It's more a line from a guidance documents for match officials.
As Zinny points out, there seems to be disconnect between what's written in the rules, and what's actually intended to happen.
To me, the crossing the flags thing applies when an umpire has already waved a green or white flag for a "score", but then the referee overrules that. The referee should then instruct the umpires to cross the flags, to make it clear to everybody that he's not awarding the "score" at all.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2618 - 16/10/2024 09:15:54
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Replying To Viking66: " Replying To zinny: "[quote=Pikeman96: "I notice that the statement from Wexford GAA includes this bit:
Furthermore, during the course of extra time, there was no evidence of any score being cancelled or disallowed by the referee and/or his officials.
Crossing the flags is supposed to happen if a "point" is being disallowed, same as a goal. So I'm taking it to mean that the video didn't show flags being crossed. Which then means that if the referee says he overruled a "point", but he didn't tell the umpires to cross the flags to signify this, he's in a way saying "I didn't perform my duties properly".
No idea how that stuff from the referee ended up with that Sports News Ireland Twitter account, but I believe there are a couple of Wexford lads involved with Sports News Ireland. They'd also be involved with GAA, but wouldn't be County Board officers or members of the CCC. Possible that they got the thing directly from the referee, because I don't see who else would have it.
Haven't heard anything about how other refs feel about the whole thing." The referee has the power to determine if it was a point or not and he does not need to consult with the umpires. The crossing of the flags relate to the umpires and their duties in respect to their decisions. There is a disconnect in the rules - the referee has the duty to keep the score, the power to overrule the umpire but in doing that he is not obliged to consult with the umpire or tell them to overrule their decision and therefore cross the flags. Of course that may be what should be intended but its not what is written"
Likewise if they don't give a point and the referee overrules them he instructs them to put up a flag. They then wave it."]He doesn't have to tell them anything according to the rules - that may be best practice but not a rule. The umpire has a power to decide if its a score and a duty to raise the crossed flags if he decides to cancel the score.
The ref can overule umpire and may or may not even discuss it as he is certain of his decision. He has no duty to tell the umpire either. So where the ref is certain of his decision nothing more is needed, if he is not then he discusses with the umpire and makes a decision - if it changes the initial decision by the umpire he is not required to tell the umpire to do anything. The refs letter was factually correct.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1900 - 16/10/2024 10:04:46
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Replying To countyman2022: "I see we are now making u-16's warm up in car parks using car lights as floodlights before co finals? This Co Board is at rock bottom." All teams warm up on the pitch in showgrounds as to protect the pitch in patricks park as there are alot of games played there. The pitch is in good condition to be fare.
murt1982 (Wexford) - Posts: 12 - 16/10/2024 10:08:01
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Posted this on another thread earlier
Who organizes underage competitions in Wexford? Is it like Dublin where there is a separate underage CCC and committee or is it all done by the main committee?
wexfordwin (Wexford) - Posts: 186 - 16/10/2024 10:36:12
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Replying To countyman2022: "I see we are now making u-16's warm up in car parks using car lights as floodlights before co finals? This Co Board is at rock bottom." Teams always warmed up there. Adults also.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 16/10/2024 11:16:27
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Replying To murt1982: "All teams warm up on the pitch in showgrounds as to protect the pitch in patricks park as there are alot of games played there. The pitch is in good condition to be fare." Even in the pitch dark where there is no floodlights they warm up there? Its probably ok for Saturday and Sunday daytime fixtures, cant imagine making lads puck sliotars around in the dark is very fair for night games?
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 16/10/2024 11:18:42
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Replying To Viking66: "Teams always warmed up there. Adults also." For day time games. Not at night without any floodlights can I remember it? Some ego's in that place too.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 16/10/2024 11:19:43
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Replying To zinny: " Replying To Viking66: "[quote=zinny: "[quote=Pikeman96: "I notice that the statement from Wexford GAA includes this bit:
Furthermore, during the course of extra time, there was no evidence of any score being cancelled or disallowed by the referee and/or his officials.
Crossing the flags is supposed to happen if a "point" is being disallowed, same as a goal. So I'm taking it to mean that the video didn't show flags being crossed. Which then means that if the referee says he overruled a "point", but he didn't tell the umpires to cross the flags to signify this, he's in a way saying "I didn't perform my duties properly".
No idea how that stuff from the referee ended up with that Sports News Ireland Twitter account, but I believe there are a couple of Wexford lads involved with Sports News Ireland. They'd also be involved with GAA, but wouldn't be County Board officers or members of the CCC. Possible that they got the thing directly from the referee, because I don't see who else would have it.
Haven't heard anything about how other refs feel about the whole thing." The referee has the power to determine if it was a point or not and he does not need to consult with the umpires. The crossing of the flags relate to the umpires and their duties in respect to their decisions. There is a disconnect in the rules - the referee has the duty to keep the score, the power to overrule the umpire but in doing that he is not obliged to consult with the umpire or tell them to overrule their decision and therefore cross the flags. Of course that may be what should be intended but its not what is written"
Likewise if they don't give a point and the referee overrules them he instructs them to put up a flag. They then wave it."]He doesn't have to tell them anything according to the rules - that may be best practice but not a rule. The umpire has a power to decide if its a score and a duty to raise the crossed flags if he decides to cancel the score.
The ref can overule umpire and may or may not even discuss it as he is certain of his decision. He has no duty to tell the umpire either. So where the ref is certain of his decision nothing more is needed, if he is not then he discusses with the umpire and makes a decision - if it changes the initial decision by the umpire he is not required to tell the umpire to do anything. The refs letter was factually correct."]I can't see how you are right there Zinny. So what you are saying there is that a referee has the power to determine the result of a game without anyone else in the ground being aware of the result the referee has determined? In this instance everybody in the ground had the same different score to the referee, including his own linesmen, umpires, and the Bunclody stats man.
That's some power to give one man.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 16/10/2024 11:28:26
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Replying To WEX98: " Replying To Viking66: "[quote=zinny: "[quote=Pikeman96: "I notice that the statement from Wexford GAA includes this bit:
Furthermore, during the course of extra time, there was no evidence of any score being cancelled or disallowed by the referee and/or his officials.
Crossing the flags is supposed to happen if a "point" is being disallowed, same as a goal. So I'm taking it to mean that the video didn't show flags being crossed. Which then means that if the referee says he overruled a "point", but he didn't tell the umpires to cross the flags to signify this, he's in a way saying "I didn't perform my duties properly".
No idea how that stuff from the referee ended up with that Sports News Ireland Twitter account, but I believe there are a couple of Wexford lads involved with Sports News Ireland. They'd also be involved with GAA, but wouldn't be County Board officers or members of the CCC. Possible that they got the thing directly from the referee, because I don't see who else would have it.
Haven't heard anything about how other refs feel about the whole thing." The referee has the power to determine if it was a point or not and he does not need to consult with the umpires. The crossing of the flags relate to the umpires and their duties in respect to their decisions. There is a disconnect in the rules - the referee has the duty to keep the score, the power to overrule the umpire but in doing that he is not obliged to consult with the umpire or tell them to overrule their decision and therefore cross the flags. Of course that may be what should be intended but its not what is written"
Likewise if they don't give a point and the referee overrules them he instructs them to put up a flag. They then wave it."]Is this the first time that a GAA match result was over turned?
We have a lots of examples of points waved wide and balls that crossed the goal line not given...........even at intercounty level with lots of different camera angles.
Remember Waterford's Austin Gleeson goal line catch......that decision put Waterford out of the championship."]No it's not the first time. It happened the only time I ever umpired in Wexford Park too. A final. The Referee, a good friend of mine, got the score wrong. Wouldn't listen to anyone including us his umpires. Gave the Cup to the team who he thought won it. It had to be taken back off them when he was proved wrong on video evidence. As it was the game was actually a draw, so there was a replay, as there should be after a draw.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 16/10/2024 11:31:58
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Replying To countyman2022: "For day time games. Not at night without any floodlights can I remember it? Some ego's in that place too." A small stand is in the plans for the upgrades in Ferns. That will solve that problem as there won't be any need for using Patricks Park for as many games. Lads will be able warm up on the pitch for the games there then.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 16/10/2024 11:40:21
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Replying To wexfordwin: "Posted this on another thread earlier
Who organizes underage competitions in Wexford? Is it like Dublin where there is a separate underage CCC and committee or is it all done by the main committee?" The CCC do it for u14s upwards. They have to do the adult fixtures also. None of them are paid to do it. Games Development organise the u12s downwards. Thankless job if ever there was one.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 16/10/2024 11:42:24
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