National Forum

Some Updates On The Football Review

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Replying To Gaa_lover:  "Don't have to go back to recent years, the club finals at the weekend was good games. I totally agree they didn't need to change the scoring system and BTW Basketball has become more boring here with three pointers."
I hear you both.

My thoughts on the 2 pointer would be that the scoring zone is too well defined in football and that by doing this widens it out.

It's not hard for me to envisage this rule not working out well. The middle area of the field in front of the goal posts is going to be very valuable now, are we going to end up with a blanket placed vertically rather than horizontally.

I also strongly agree that the game was nowhere near as bad as people made out and if anything was getting better rather than worse.

I think the irony is that some of the rule changes are very regressive. Dictating where kick outs have to go, limiting the innovation of the goalkeeper role. This is a little sad to me, I think we are aiming to hard back to a game that was pretty unrefined at times.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 04/12/2024 09:19:34    2582292

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I hear you both.

My thoughts on the 2 pointer would be that the scoring zone is too well defined in football and that by doing this widens it out.

It's not hard for me to envisage this rule not working out well. The middle area of the field in front of the goal posts is going to be very valuable now, are we going to end up with a blanket placed vertically rather than horizontally.

I also strongly agree that the game was nowhere near as bad as people made out and if anything was getting better rather than worse.

I think the irony is that some of the rule changes are very regressive. Dictating where kick outs have to go, limiting the innovation of the goalkeeper role. This is a little sad to me, I think we are aiming to hard back to a game that was pretty unrefined at times."
Well as regards the state of the game I was on the same page as yourself, sure there were bad games as there always were
I have no doubt there will still be poor games going forward whether because of negative tactics or weaker teams getting hammered.
The fact that the game was becoming more and more tactical in recent years had some fans hankering back to the days of catch and kick with 50/50 battles in every area of the field. The game will never be brought back to that by rule changes, tactics will evolve and successful teams will not be risking loss of possession.
I'm looking forward to seeing how these changes impact the game and also to seeing how coaches "deal" with the changes.
The two pointer will be interesting, will there be more attempts at long range points or maybe less if coaches can devise systems to put defensive pressure on long range kickers without exposing themselves to goal chances. My prediction for what it's worth is there will be less 2 pointers than expected, more short range points and less goals.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 810 - 04/12/2024 10:38:30    2582298

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Replying To Drax_the_destroyer:  "Get a quill and send off a good quality letter of complaint to HQ!"
Strangely enough if you wrote someone an actual letter now it might get noticed.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3057 - 04/12/2024 11:26:40    2582306

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "I can't abide giving say Rory Beggan 2 points for a 40.5m free straight in front of goal with the wind while giving say Conor McManus only 1 point from a magnificent kick from play out near the corner flag with 2 backs on top of him."
Very good point (excuse pun). Why does the 40m arc stop at the 20m line? I have seen no explanation. It would obviously show up narrow pitches - like Thurles - but this does not seem to be a good enough reason.

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 309 - 04/12/2024 20:12:30    2582399

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Well as regards the state of the game I was on the same page as yourself, sure there were bad games as there always were
I have no doubt there will still be poor games going forward whether because of negative tactics or weaker teams getting hammered.
The fact that the game was becoming more and more tactical in recent years had some fans hankering back to the days of catch and kick with 50/50 battles in every area of the field. The game will never be brought back to that by rule changes, tactics will evolve and successful teams will not be risking loss of possession.
I'm looking forward to seeing how these changes impact the game and also to seeing how coaches "deal" with the changes.
The two pointer will be interesting, will there be more attempts at long range points or maybe less if coaches can devise systems to put defensive pressure on long range kickers without exposing themselves to goal chances. My prediction for what it's worth is there will be less 2 pointers than expected, more short range points and less goals."
Its a funny one alright. You can see that something is wrong in the game - less people are going along to see the championship matches. So cue a big change in the playing rules that may or may not work. Will we end up looking back on the old rules with a touch of regret?

For me - the rules should make the game higher scoring. It should encourage a bit more adventure in playing style - both of which should be a good thing. But I think we misdiagnosed the problem. The problem is that Possession football is the answer to the packed defense - two sides to the same coin preventing regular contests for the ball. Possession football will become easier with the limit on defenders. We'll have even bigger blow outs between the good teams and the best teams. This will mean that support will continue to fall off.

My prediction is like yours - 2 pointers will be harder to come by again the summer comes around and possession football will become much more evident. Imagine what basketball would be without a shot clock and the backcourt rule.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 370 - 06/12/2024 09:43:59    2582595

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Replying To brianb:  "Its a funny one alright. You can see that something is wrong in the game - less people are going along to see the championship matches. So cue a big change in the playing rules that may or may not work. Will we end up looking back on the old rules with a touch of regret?

For me - the rules should make the game higher scoring. It should encourage a bit more adventure in playing style - both of which should be a good thing. But I think we misdiagnosed the problem. The problem is that Possession football is the answer to the packed defense - two sides to the same coin preventing regular contests for the ball. Possession football will become easier with the limit on defenders. We'll have even bigger blow outs between the good teams and the best teams. This will mean that support will continue to fall off.

My prediction is like yours - 2 pointers will be harder to come by again the summer comes around and possession football will become much more evident. Imagine what basketball would be without a shot clock and the backcourt rule."
Did the FRC at any point consider limiting handpassing and soloing/hopping.
Hurling has the 2 handling thing limiting the amount of times you can play the ball to yourself.

There seems to be a feeling we need loads of scores but I don't know if that's all it's cracked up to be. Smacks of exhibition games where we tear up the field, get a score, then ye tear up the field, get a score, repeat,repeat till the final whistle.
Game ends 4-17 to 2- 21.
Millions watch soccer which has an average of 1 score per half hour!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2005 - 06/12/2024 11:32:02    2582613

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Just wondering if all these rules coming into club under age next year I know they in county minor ( under 17 ) but don't know if they in club minor ,, can u imagine if they not and u have young lads playing for county undrr one set rules and club another set also u have referees doing club adult all week the. Club underage difference rules ,, in fairness football is a fairly simple game to understand or I mean it was. They definitely have complicated a simple game played by amateur players ,, i wonder when the GAA will see sense and put minor back to 18 at inter county the majority of clubs at it

Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 960 - 06/12/2024 12:38:46    2582626

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Well as regards the state of the game I was on the same page as yourself, sure there were bad games as there always were
I have no doubt there will still be poor games going forward whether because of negative tactics or weaker teams getting hammered.
The fact that the game was becoming more and more tactical in recent years had some fans hankering back to the days of catch and kick with 50/50 battles in every area of the field. The game will never be brought back to that by rule changes, tactics will evolve and successful teams will not be risking loss of possession.
I'm looking forward to seeing how these changes impact the game and also to seeing how coaches "deal" with the changes.
The two pointer will be interesting, will there be more attempts at long range points or maybe less if coaches can devise systems to put defensive pressure on long range kickers without exposing themselves to goal chances. My prediction for what it's worth is there will be less 2 pointers than expected, more short range points and less goals."
I really don't like the modern style of Gaelic football but I amn't harking back to see gaelic football in a perfect form like it was say 100 years ago.
I've read a lot of posts critical of modern style tactical gaelic football on Hogan stand and I don't think people are just misty eyed about the past.

For me the style of play I most enjoyed watching was the way teams played for about a decade after sidelines and frees were first taken from the hand as this sped up the game a lot and keeping lots of men behind the ball tactics hadn't come in yet.

50/50 battles in Gaelic football aren't all about catching a ball over an opponents head, good fast players often used their speed/ positional sense/ reaction time to get to the ball first ahead of their direct opponents.

I'm positive about the rule changes in that things can't get much worse than they are now but do think that we'll see more hammerings as defenders will be left more exposed and the GAA still haven't defined a realistic tackle so we'll continue to see frees for small infringements (the modern way of refereeing games).

GreenMan1987 (Meath) - Posts: 53 - 07/12/2024 15:00:56    2582720

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Replying To GreenMan1987:  "I really don't like the modern style of Gaelic football but I amn't harking back to see gaelic football in a perfect form like it was say 100 years ago.
I've read a lot of posts critical of modern style tactical gaelic football on Hogan stand and I don't think people are just misty eyed about the past.

For me the style of play I most enjoyed watching was the way teams played for about a decade after sidelines and frees were first taken from the hand as this sped up the game a lot and keeping lots of men behind the ball tactics hadn't come in yet.

50/50 battles in Gaelic football aren't all about catching a ball over an opponents head, good fast players often used their speed/ positional sense/ reaction time to get to the ball first ahead of their direct opponents.

I'm positive about the rule changes in that things can't get much worse than they are now but do think that we'll see more hammerings as defenders will be left more exposed and the GAA still haven't defined a realistic tackle so we'll continue to see frees for small infringements (the modern way of refereeing games)."
I did say 50/50 challenges for the ball because of catch n kick, I didn't say overhead. But I suppose my point is that many who are "disillusioned" with the modern game dislike " tactical strategic games" and I just don't think rule changes will curb "tactical straregies" which found themselves on possession of the ball.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 810 - 07/12/2024 22:00:12    2582739

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Replying To sligo joe:  "I did say 50/50 challenges for the ball because of catch n kick, I didn't say overhead. But I suppose my point is that many who are "disillusioned" with the modern game dislike " tactical strategic games" and I just don't think rule changes will curb "tactical straregies" which found themselves on possession of the ball."
With the 3 players up rule there will be more space to to progress the ball forward and surly more incentive to get the ball into the danger area quicker.
I think the rules changes change the balance in terms of what is the the most effective way of play football, it is harder to hold onto the ball and getting the ball in quickly hurts the opposition more than before.
Time will tell but for me definitely worth trying out these changes for a year, things are bad at the moment.

GreenMan1987 (Meath) - Posts: 53 - 08/12/2024 19:10:53    2582801

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Did the FRC at any point consider limiting handpassing and soloing/hopping.
Hurling has the 2 handling thing limiting the amount of times you can play the ball to yourself.

There seems to be a feeling we need loads of scores but I don't know if that's all it's cracked up to be. Smacks of exhibition games where we tear up the field, get a score, then ye tear up the field, get a score, repeat,repeat till the final whistle.
Game ends 4-17 to 2- 21.
Millions watch soccer which has an average of 1 score per half hour!"
Did they look at the hand pass? I didn't know. They should have but maybe asking the ref to count hand passes as well as everything else was a step too far so I guess that will be for the next review.

I think higher scoring games in general should be a good thing - 4-17 to 2-21 and everyone will be happy but if it ends up being 0-31 to 1-11 then that's a bit different. Whatever the rules we want to see competitive close games and that's a different thread.

I think we could just as easily end up where it's easier to hold onto possession than it was before so lower scoring and more lateral movement of the ball.

But I think the jury should be out on the new rules until after the league. Once seen in competitive games - a lot more will be known.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 370 - 09/12/2024 15:51:16    2582902

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@brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 360 - 09/12/2024 15:51:16

I wouldn't be for counting consecutive handpasses either - too much to track, given everything else the ref monitors. In its place though, I think a mandatory kick by the defence from behind its 45 to beyond its 65 would create many contested midfield balls - a kick which would be more exciting than the one implemented at the kick out (20-40).

Think about it - say, at kick out - a 'tap n go' is allowed, a short pass and then the team would have to make the '45-65' kick - maybe, with an 'unscientific' time limit of a plenty 30 seconds (called by ref, only if blatant time wasting).

What do you think?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 09/12/2024 21:22:43    2582948

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Replying To omahant:  "@brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 360 - 09/12/2024 15:51:16

I wouldn't be for counting consecutive handpasses either - too much to track, given everything else the ref monitors. In its place though, I think a mandatory kick by the defence from behind its 45 to beyond its 65 would create many contested midfield balls - a kick which would be more exciting than the one implemented at the kick out (20-40).

Think about it - say, at kick out - a 'tap n go' is allowed, a short pass and then the team would have to make the '45-65' kick - maybe, with an 'unscientific' time limit of a plenty 30 seconds (called by ref, only if blatant time wasting).

What do you think?"
You're worried about overloading the Ref with handpass counting then you propose that.....

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2005 - 10/12/2024 09:33:33    2582976

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Replying To Aibrean:  "Very good point (excuse pun). Why does the 40m arc stop at the 20m line? I have seen no explanation. It would obviously show up narrow pitches - like Thurles - but this does not seem to be a good enough reason."
MOTION 20: The motion proposes a point is scored when the ball is played over the crossbar between the posts by either team, inside the 40m arc or inside the 20m line. [/I]

So, 2 points will be awarded for a 'point' from the corner flag. This also explains why the 40m arc stops at the 20m line.

(It does help to read the rules, from time to time!).

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 309 - 10/12/2024 12:36:40    2582998

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Replying To Aibrean:  "MOTION 20: The motion proposes a point is scored when the ball is played over the crossbar between the posts by either team, inside the 40m arc or inside the 20m line. [/I


So, 2 points will be awarded for a 'point' from the corner flag. This also explains why the 40m arc stops at the 20m line.

(It does help to read the rules, from time to time!)."]The corner flag is inside the 20m line.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2005 - 10/12/2024 16:57:05    2583020

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Replying To omahant:  "@brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 360 - 09/12/2024 15:51:16

I wouldn't be for counting consecutive handpasses either - too much to track, given everything else the ref monitors. In its place though, I think a mandatory kick by the defence from behind its 45 to beyond its 65 would create many contested midfield balls - a kick which would be more exciting than the one implemented at the kick out (20-40).

Think about it - say, at kick out - a 'tap n go' is allowed, a short pass and then the team would have to make the '45-65' kick - maybe, with an 'unscientific' time limit of a plenty 30 seconds (called by ref, only if blatant time wasting).

What do you think?"
The new football rules have gotten through congress. Let's see how they apply in the league. Definitely don't agree with a 45-65 kick. I think kick outs should remain just having to go beyond the 13m arc. Time will tell if kick outs going beyond the new 40m arc is really needed.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 10/12/2024 19:53:32    2583039

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Replying To omahant:  "@brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 360 - 09/12/2024 15:51:16

I wouldn't be for counting consecutive handpasses either - too much to track, given everything else the ref monitors. In its place though, I think a mandatory kick by the defence from behind its 45 to beyond its 65 would create many contested midfield balls - a kick which would be more exciting than the one implemented at the kick out (20-40).

Think about it - say, at kick out - a 'tap n go' is allowed, a short pass and then the team would have to make the '45-65' kick - maybe, with an 'unscientific' time limit of a plenty 30 seconds (called by ref, only if blatant time wasting).

What do you think?"
I think we have to keep the rules fairly simple. So I wouldn't be for a 45-65 kick where you'd need 2 linesmen keeping track of both where the kick was taken from and received.

We'll see how the rules go. I expect we'll end up seeing lateral movement of the ball between the 45 & 65 as teams won't want to push out for fear of giving up an easier 2-point attempt. If we see that - the rule I'd suggest would be a "back court" rule; once you've played the ball beyond the 65 you can't play it back. That would give a chance to pressure the possession with a bigger chance of winning the ball back and a quick break down field to the 3 men left up.

As for the handpass - easiest and best rule I can think of is you can't handpass after receiving a handpass. Again if we see many series of 10 - 20 handpasses with the odd kick pass over and back between the 45 and 65 we'll know this is still a problem.

Both points boil down to my view of the problem - slow progression of the ball brough by possession first football that is needed to counteract the packed defense. But key for me is to see how the new rules work in the league. For now we're imagining the issues.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 370 - 11/12/2024 09:21:50    2583073

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Did the FRC give any reason for not restricting the handpass?
Not hand passing after receiving a hand pass could restrict some one-two opportunities for setting up a score. Possibly the third player receiving a hand pass is where some want to clamp down but is that overloading referees?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 11/12/2024 13:23:26    2583120

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Did the FRC give any reason for not restricting the handpass?
Not hand passing after receiving a hand pass could restrict some one-two opportunities for setting up a score. Possibly the third player receiving a hand pass is where some want to clamp down but is that overloading referees?"
Yes - limiting it after a single handpass could restrict a scoring possibility where it opens up with a second pass; but whatever number you decide to count to would potentially do that.

I'd assume that the FRC looked at the handpass and decided it was another symptom of the problem rather than the problem.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 370 - 11/12/2024 16:54:07    2583157

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Did the FRC give any reason for not restricting the handpass?
Not hand passing after receiving a hand pass could restrict some one-two opportunities for setting up a score. Possibly the third player receiving a hand pass is where some want to clamp down but is that overloading referees?"
Overloading referees seem to be the LEAST of the new rules committee's worries! The majority of these new rules are doing just that.

TopoftheD (UK) - Posts: 4 - 11/12/2024 17:17:14    2583159

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